Nothing overly groundbreaking in this post, but as their seems to be several different tubolaser options that look to fit nicley on Salvation, I thought I'd crunch some math.

Background;

Salvation is a Neb B that comes in at 58 points as an un-upgraded Support refit. It has 3 red dice in its front arc, where its crits count as 2 damage when fired out of the frint arc. For this reason Salvation benifits most from turbolasers that increase front arc damage while caring less so about its remaining 3 arcs.

Red dice; 1 Hit Hit, 2 Crit, 2 Hits, 1 Acc, 2 Miss.

Expected damage from Salvation's front arc is 1.0 Damage + 0.125 Acc per red dice

With 3 unmodified red dice average 3.0 damage with 0.375 Acc

Turbolasers;

Spinal Armaments;

Pros: Boosts average damage by 1.0 Damage and 0.125 Acc to front arc. Best theoretical maximum damage. Most benifit from CF token (high chance of a dud result) or HomeOne. Most Acc results.

Cons: 9 points- most expensive option. Boosts front and rear only. Unlikely to utilize both front and rear arcs on same turn.

TRC:

Pros: Adds 1.79 average Damage to front arc. Most reliable damage/crits. Usable in all arcs. Most benifit from a CF dial or Akbar (more dice rolled, more chance of a dud roll).

Cons: 7 points- second most expensive option. Uses Evade. Unusable if Evade token lost. Generally not usable twice per turn. Included in the expected damage is changing an Acc to a Crit when you didn't roll a Miss, thus less Acc if used to maximise damage.

Slaved Turrents:

Pros: Boosts average damage by 1.0 Damage and 0.125 Acc to front arc. Similar to Spinal Armaments. May boost other arcs when front arc has no shot. Cheaper option at 6 points.

Cons: Only 1 attack per round- generally makes this a poor choice, but Salvation utilises this better then most ships.

Dual Turbolasers:

Pros: 5 points- the cheapest. Versitile- may choose between damage and Acc as needed.

Cons: Least damage at 0.81. Only benifits 1 attack- as with Slaver Turrents Salvation utilises this better then most ships.

HTT and X17 are also options, but don't really synergize with Salvation's ability, and I don't think Salvation really has the raw damage output required to make them worth it, particularly out of its other arcs.

Interested in what other people are comboing with Salvation.

Sato also has me intrigued. Changing Dud Red dice to Blue for 1.0 damage + 0.25 Acc per dice or Black with 1.25 damage per dice. Sato would prefer Spinal or Slaved.

How are you getting 1 damage on a red dice as average?

Most put the value at 0.75 per red dice.

Which is why dice manipulation TRC are so valued over upgrades that add a single red dice.

I think he's thinking front arc Salvation math, so 1.0 per dice.

How are you getting 1 damage on a red dice as average?

Most put the value at 0.75 per red dice.

Which is why dice manipulation TRC are so valued over upgrades that add a single red dice.

With salvation each front arc crit is 2 damage as well.. means statistically you are looking at 1xhit hit, 2xcrit(+hit because salvation), 2xhit, 1xAcc, 2xMiss, or 8 damage divided by 8 dice faces = 1 average damage.

I think he's thinking front arc Salvation math, so 1.0 per dice.

How are you getting 1 damage on a red dice as average?

Most put the value at 0.75 per red dice.

Which is why dice manipulation TRC are so valued over upgrades that add a single red dice.

With salvation each front arc crit is 2 damage as well.. means statistically you are looking at 1xhit hit, 2xcrit(+hit because salvation), 2xhit, 1xAcc, 2xMiss, or 8 damage divided by 8 dice faces = 1 average damage.

Ah, that would explain it.

So my current theory is that it depends on how specialized you want Salvation to be. You can reduce it strictly to damage output, or you can use it in Escort mode to be a second carrier with a nasty follow up.

One of the nicer elements of Salvation is that the title doesn't necessarily prevent you from accomplishing other tasks.

Interested in what other people are comboing with Salvation.

Sato also has me intrigued. Changing Dud Red dice to Blue for 1.0 damage + 0.25 Acc per dice or Black with 1.25 damage per dice. Sato would prefer Spinal or Slaved.

Sato can just replace dud reds with more reds (they hit harder on salv than black dice anyway, right?)

It's a tough call overall. If I were going to add a die, I don't think the downside of slaved turrets is that bad on THIS ship and generally prefer that over the spinal to save some points. If for some reason you did want to use the title on the escort variant for some carrier role, then you might not want slaved turrets because you'll probably have an opportunity to blast 2 blue AA from a side arc at some point. Then i would maybe save the points by not using a turbolaser upgrade since the escort variant is already 6 points more, but that coupled with fewer CF commands (since you'll be doing some squadron) seems like that overall firepower may be too weak. Could be good with yts where you can still spam CF, but have something to engage some fighters and hold them in place to line up that AA spray.

TRCs are tough, as an evade here or there on that exposed side arc can really help. X-i7s can still be really good as a follow up. I've been thinking about using a mon karren with just the title, intel officer, and raw damage upgrades (spinal, sw7, maybe xx-9) and trying to blast an arc on something big that the salvation will be able to follow up on and burn the brace with intel. Then the salv pounds away with the xi-7s. In general the firepower upgrades or none at all might be better on the salv, but even 4 dice with a reroll if you're running raymus could be pretty nasty with the xi-7s.

I would probably prefer an extra die with Sato though (probably spinal over slaved, because you may get a med range side arc shot that could be 2 black dice). Not sure if dual turbos with sato would feel redundant or not, but since you can reroll same die more than once in this game, and you can fish for a better result with the duals when you have a single hit already on one of your dice, they might not be.

Remember it's less about average damage and more about common cause variation. Using TLRC reduces your level of variation, that's why it's so potent. the other upgrades increases your variation, you have a higher potential damage and a lower level of damage at the wrong end.

TLRC give you a damage variation of 2-6

Upgrades that add a dice gives you a damage variation of 0-8

I've not includes causes of special variation which for me includes anything which is not going happen every time you fire, so concentrate fire dials, lando, defence tokens etc.

TLRC can also have a better interaction with accuracy results because of the reduced variation in damage, You can get damage from a roll that only includes accuracy results and would be at the 0 end of variation with a dice adding upgrade, but gives two damage with the variation reducing TLRC.

@Bobbywhiskey: Salvation's ability is not dice colour specific, thus re-rolling as a blue dice makes red dice almost redundant, as blue have an extra 0.25 Acc per roll with the same average damage of 1.0. In a clutch situation when getting exactly 2 damage on the re-roll makes a massive difference, then you could re-roll as red as red have a 3/8 change of rolling 2 damage to blue's 2/8. Black dice have the most damage with 2/8 missing, 4/8 x1 damage and 2/8 of 3x damage (hit and crit where crit counts as 2), for an average of 1.25 per dice.

While you can get an Escort Varient, or go turbolaser upgrade-less, I think you are better off building Salvation around a specific damage dealing role. Consider that you are paying 7 points for the title thus need to roll a few crits out the front arc to make it pay of. Particularly for the upgrade-less Salvation, consider for the same price you could get a generic Escort with TRC instead.

I think for me it comes down to how I am building the list and what commands I plan on making. Adding extra dice through Spinal or Slaved benefit from dice modification from other sources, like HomeOne or Sato or CF token re-roll. Dice modification upgrades like TRC and Dual tubolasers benefit from adding additional dice through CF dial and Akbar (the later doesn't synergize with Salvation however).

For me it was always slaved turrets, but dual turbos are looking like a good replacement.

I am not happy using my single evade on a neb.

I'm a fan of the Spinal TL's. More dice are good, but TLRC's are just too risky on a reasonably priced vessel like the Neb. And if you survive the entry in to combat, and manage to shoot past the fight, you still get a chance with 3 reds out the rear to help finish things.

DTTs would be my choice on there. Sure it is an exhaust, but are you really going to waste the attack on a side or rear shot? You basically roll 4 dice (5 with CF command) and get a choice of what you want to keep.

I've had success with spinal on salv, but sample size too limited still to draw real conclusions.

@Bobbywhiskey: Salvation's ability is not dice colour specific, thus re-rolling as a blue dice makes red dice almost redundant, as blue have an extra 0.25 Acc per roll with the same average damage of 1.0. In a clutch situation when getting exactly 2 damage on the re-roll makes a massive difference, then you could re-roll as red as red have a 3/8 change of rolling 2 damage to blue's 2/8. Black dice have the most damage with 2/8 missing, 4/8 x1 damage and 2/8 of 3x damage (hit and crit where crit counts as 2), for an average of 1.25 per dice.

Good call, for some reason I always thought it was.

I quite like the idea of Spinal Armaments on the Salvation. I seem to spent most of the time either going head to head with, or running away from, enemy ships. It's a solid option IMHO as there is no real drawbacks to the upgrade unlike TRC or Slaved Turrets. It's certainly encouraged me to take another look at the Nebulon as they'd really been relegated to light carrier/squadron escort duty.

I used to be in the small slaves turret camp but am now firmly in the large TRC camp

I like the XI7 on Salvation ! Pushind 4-5 damage on a good roll is pleasant when they can only redirct one

I like TRC's in a vacuum as it's +damage -variance, but DANG I really miss that evade sometimes!

Ah well. I suppose dying in a blaze of glory is the inevitable fate of Yavaris/Salvation nearly every game for me

I like TRC's in a vacuum as it's +damage -variance, but DANG I really miss that evade sometimes!

Ah well. I suppose dying in a blaze of glory is the inevitable fate of Yavaris/Salvation nearly every game for me

They are cheap though..........

Interesting to note that the new 5pt dual turbos turrets is gonna be one attack only. Hmm.

I'd wonder if ray Mus into CF die plus token would actually be the most extra... But I guess with a turbo laser you're already CF every turn?? Thoughts?

Let's get a poll. What do you run?

Several Nebs kitted with Spinal Armaments, spamming CF commands would be pretty nasty.

A plus on the dual turbos is if they are not needed for the front fire they could be used during anti-squad fire out the sides.

I'm firmly in the TRC camp, I like the predictability of the upgrade, and expect my single Evade is gonna be hit with an Accuracy most times anyway over my twin Brace commands.

IMO, DTT is the perfect utility piece on salvation, even better than spinal turrets. Treat DTT like an extra CF command, except you are removing the worst result in your pool. Less potential damage than spinal, but unless your dice are so hot as to ALL land acc and crit/hit-hit for every engagement round, DTT is still the cheaper option. Exhaust on use, but then again how often would your salvation have targets front and back to maximise Spinal?(And lacks gunnery teams too)

Also, H9 is a possible option since the title already pushes up damage.

H9 is not a very good fit - you must set a hit/crit to Acc. And you sure don't want to do that with your crits and doubles, so basically H9 is only useful on plain hit. Not entirely horrible, but not good enough for 8 pts/turbo slot.