I have been playing against someone for a while now and I have been unable to come up with a list nor a strategy to beat my opponent. He is running

- Luke

- Leia

- C-3PO

- Gideon

- Rebel Troopers

- eEcho Troopers

He uses Gideon and C-3PO to focus Luke and Leia, which then go on to shred my troopers list to pieces. Their +2 recover also give me a hard time taking down Luke or Leia.

Any tips?

Maybe tell us what YOUR "trooper" list consists of, and we can give more specific advice.

For starters though, if Luke and Leia are going in on the front lines, consider the value of a card like "Element of Surprise" to use when Luke has taken those couple of points of damage. A well timed "Element" on a slightly bruised Luke could take him off the board in one shot from something like an Elite Heavy Stormtrooper. In fact, if you have "Element" in hand and Luke is at 5hp left, you can pretty well put him down right there.

As well, does your opponent make use of any defence re-rolls for the twins? If so, "Tough Luck" will help you out there as well.

Keep a "Negation" in the deck to cancel their 0-cost cards.

"Grenadier" in combination with an "Element" on a unit of Elite Stormies that just activated would most certainly rip up one of those heroes in that activation.

Consider also "Against the Odds". If you're usually losing, then this could give you that big swing again.

"Cross Training" on your Elite Stormtroopers (if indeed you are using an Imperial list) could let you give Luke a taste of his own medicine when you full out Dodge a Saber Strike. This is especially frustrating if your opponent just played "Son of Skywalker" and has it whiff to X-Man.

Give us some more info on your list and you'll probably get some more detailed answers.

Since you cross posted your question here's my cross posted answer:

Troopers are probably the strongest list in the meta right now. Twins lists did not feature heavily in the top of the Gen Con North American Championship Tournament.

Troopers means 2 Elite Stormtroopers and then a variety of support pieces.

For support pieces, 2x Imperial Officer, Rule by Fear, and Zillo Technique are really good. That leaves you with about 16 points for things like Royal Gaurds, Blaise, Regular Stormtroopers, ISBs, Cross Training, etc as you see fit.

Your command cards should always be 2x Reinforcements and Grenadier. New Orders is very good with officers. Com Disruption and Intel Leak are very good if you have spies to stop Son of Skywalker, Reinforcements, & Grenadier.

Strategy vs Twins is to focus fire and kill off whatever unit they move in close enough. In particular, Leia and 3PO are good targets to take out ASAP though. You should have lots more figures so you should try to control 1 terminal and, depending on the scenario, send your weaker figures to do some objectives.

• Elite Stormtrooper
  
• Elite Stormtrooper
  
• Heavy Stormtrooper
  
• Elite Probe Droid
  
• Royal Guard (will defend heavies or eStormtroopers)
  

Well, that troublesome list is similar to the list I ran at Gen Con (I made top 16 but lost first round to the eventual winner, if that matters), and I can certain talk about its shortcomings.

Here was my list:

-Luke

-Leia

-Gideon

-C3PO

-Elite Rebel Troopers

-Lando

-Alliance Smuggler

(If I were to do this over and keep this list, I would swap out Lando for Davith so my force user command cards could have two options, even though Lando is fairly awesome)

I can't speak as much to the Echo Troopers, but Luke, Leia, the Rebel Troopers all excel at taking pot shots from far away. Particularly the Rebel Troopers, who get a bonus if they haven't moved. But if position yourself to cause them to move, they shouldn't give you much trouble. Your first priority should be taking out Leia. She is what makes a Luke list viable. First, she adds an additional attack for Luke and his 10 points, which does more damage but just as importantly allows him another opportunity to roll a surge for recover 2, and secondly she possibly allows for another chance to play Son of Skywalker. Without Leia, Luke will be in troup in a hurry, should you choose to focus on him.

But the other option is not focusing on him. If you can pick off C3PO and Gideon, that also severely hinders Luke's effectiveness. Ultimately, though, Luke can only kill one unit per turn, unless he plays Son of Skywalker, but even then an unfocused Luke doesn't hit that hard, considering his point value. One squad of elite stormies will do more damage most likely.

Lists that are good at countering this sort of Rebel list are those that have deadly or force rerolls. The list I'm working on right now is a Grand Inquisitor list that splashes in some HKs (there was a version of this in the top 8 at Gen Con I think). That would help against all those pesky X-men the Rebels might roll.

At Gen Con I managed to win one game after Luke had died, but mainly if the other player took out Luke, my list had no bite left (and a lof of my cards were geared towards helping him). After Luke there's still Leia, but the eEchoes and especially the Rebel Troopers wouldn't worry me that much.

-ryanjamal

I love it, we finally have some strategy talk going on here in the skirmish forum. It's been so sleepy lately. My main opponents play Imperial, so I may not be much help.

I always am looking for incidental damage as well when there's a hard character on the board. So weapons or abilities that allow for blast or cleave or your grenade like options work well to soften up Luke or someone tough (bossk, RGC or whoever) then it may take a shot or two but usually you can punch through the last damage with consistent attacks. When Luke gets down 4-5 damage, the controlling player should get nervous, because he's vulnerable to a big punch. So mistakes can be made, being too cautious or too cavalier.

As a side note.

Ryan, what do you use your alliance smuggler for? Is it just extra activations, dice magnet, etc? Would Rebel High Command not be a worthwhile addition? I've never played the regular ASmugg, but the elite version is my favorite character to play. The regular pales in comparison, but I'll be the first to admit, I'm not as competitively minded as many in this game.

Personally, I prefer the Alliance Smuggler to RHC for two reasons. One, I like to have seven activations. It helps me to defer activating Luke and Leia (I know I can pass when I have fewer than my opponent, but I like to give the other player something to have to deal with). Secondly, the smuggler is more versatile that an extra command card. One of the particular weaknesses of a list like mine was in fulfilling objectives since most of my activations were a single figure. The smuggler is great at that because of his extra movement with interacts and because he's slippery, which helps him stay alive and move away if he survives an attack. I also don't really have any figures that are great to leave on a terminal, so he helps in that regard. Essentially, that can mean that he only fulfills the same role as RHC of netting a command card, but during his turn he can pop out and take a shot at someone and move back, or (as he could in the Mos Eisley Cantina map), he can move from a terminal, perform an interact for an objective, and still make it back to the terminal that turn (okay, that's pretty rare, but it might happen again in a future map as well).

You really can't go wrong with RHC, especially with a Twins list as you're hunting very specific cards, but I just prefer the smuggler. Also, I agree it's great to chat tactics on this forum!

-ryanjamal

Also, as to the regular vs elite for the Alliance Smuggler, I would like the elite version, but the extra two points is tough for me to include. I would probably prefer to have a regular smuggler and RHC instead. Command cards can win games, so potentially drawing two extra a turn would be huge, whereas the elite could only get you one, and as an attacker I don't know if he hits hard enough to warrant the extra points.

But, ultimately, I think you should just play what you like. As I mentioned above, I'm working on the Grand Inquisitor list, and I like several Skum builds, but I really just like playing Rebels, and especially the twins. It just feels right to me, themewise, and I think I enjoy it more. Though maybe it's only a matter of time before I'm turned to the dark side...

-ryanjamal

I am thinking of trying this list next:

• Elite Stormtrooper
• Elite Stormtrooper
• Heavy Stormtrooper
• Elite Probe Droid
• Royal Guard (will defend heavies or eStormtroopers)

Zillo Technique

Targeting Computer

Rule by Fear

You will be at a severe disadvantage with 5 activations and no Officers. Particularly, Speed 3 Heavies with no Officers is a recipe for disaster.

Post-nerf Royal Guards are laughable in the damage department, and the incidental +Block and 5 Speed aren't worth the 8pts in my opinion.

I wouldn't ever play regular Heavies. I can see the allure in them being Reinforceable, but at the end of the day they're not that much tougher than an eStormtrooper and give up points more easily on account of being a 2-figure group, which also makes Reinforcements harder to use with them. I only ever play eHeavies, I feel that the extra health and the huge bump in damage due to a 2DMG surge and Blast 2 is what pushes them over the edge. They are very destructive, but absolutely need a lot of support to rise up to that potential. Re-rolls (via Targeting Computer), Focus (out of Command Cards) and Hide (out of cards or preferably Blaise) are a must, and I only play eHeavies if I have easy access to at least two of the three. With those support pieces, they shred anything you point them at. Without them, more often than not you fail to get decent Accuracy or roll up crappy damage with no surges.

I'm also not a fan of the Probe Droid TBH. He can hit hard, but he's still a single 5pt deployment that's relatively easy to shoot off. Especially against Twins - they'll snipe him off the moment you show it to them and laugh all the way to the bank with 5VPs in their pocket.

I'd seriously consider including Blaise and/or Cross Trained Stormtroopers to get some Spy-enabled Command Card hate going. It's good against any list, but specifically against Twins it allows you to counter Leia's thing somewhat, if you're worried about that. Some people like eISBs as Spy-enablers, but YMMV - I prefer Cross Trained Troopers. If you do take Blaise, don't make the mistake of pushing him into harm's way just to interrogate people. He's extremely squishy and will die the second you leave him exposed. Always hide him behind ablative troopers or around a corner, even if that means losing a shot. Getting another Interrogate isn't worth 6VPs and an activation. Don't rush in if you can get your shot more safely the next round. You can Hide some dudes (preferably eHeavies) in the meantime or do Spy and Leader stuff.

As for gameplay tips, you have to be very careful not to overextend and feed them easy targets. The key to winning with Trooper lists is patience. You need to strike hard and with overwhelming force in one swoop, not go out of your way to get random potshots and getting your guys spread out of position in the process. This is even more crucial against Twins and Rebel Troopers - if you engage them with just one or two figures at a time, they'll just sit back and snipe them out. You need to set up a board state in which you can pounce and bring maximum firepower to bear on a single target. That often means foregoing round 1 and early round 2 long-range attacks in favour of a safer, more covered advance.

Also, always be on the lookout for opportunities to outflank and strike at your opponent's backfield. A single Trooper usually isn't enough to frag Gideon or Threepio, but if you see an opportunity to bring two (or three, to be safe) guys to do a trick shot around the corner at the Rebel Care Package, take it. Not only can you score some easy points and drop an activation (and bless you if you manage to Celebrate), chances are you'll be taking a good chunk of your fighting force in a place where opposing damage-dealers can't reach you without backtracking and getting out of position themselves. The Nelvaanian map is particularly well suited for attempting this, what with three separate routes between the deployment zones. Recognizing the opportunity for this kind of gambit requires a bit of play experience though - most of the time you need to be very comfortable with the line-of-sight rules to spot a shot that your opponent might have missed in his deployment/movement considerations. You'd be surprised what sort of trick shots are actually possible on some maps.

^ Excellent post, lot of great things that everyone should be thinking about.

Although I have to wonder how flanking would work on the Nelvaanian map. Ive found that success on that map usually comes from controlling the southern hallway where the objectives are. It's a long walk through the icy middle or far north to flank.

You could ask thereisnotry about flanking on that map. He did so quite effectively in our match at Gen Con. I had basically controlled that hallway you describe and was getting 8 points a turn to his 4. He had his HKs at the top but then swung his grand inquisitor and I think some stormies through the middle to come from the other side. I was about to turn my attention to that new threat when he surprised me with a series of command cards boosting movement as well as element of surprise and he one shotted Leia. It was wonderfully nasty and swung the match his way.

Now, I played that poorly and should have pushed the issue against his HKs so that I could have moved away from the new threat earlier, and I didn't consider the extra movement he could have gotten from cards. But the strength of his move is that my list isn't great in close quarters. The immediate threat means I have to activate units before Gideon and C3PO can focus them. And also their edge for most of them is their range, so pincering them in that hall is a strong move tactically against them.

So, it took a while and I misplayed against the strategy, but still I can testify that flanking can be a powerful move on this map.

-ryanjamal

I love it, we finally have some strategy talk going on here in the skirmish forum. It's been so sleepy lately. My main opponents play Imperial, so I may not be much help.

I always am looking for incidental damage as well when there's a hard character on the board. So weapons or abilities that allow for blast or cleave or your grenade like options work well to soften up Luke or someone tough (bossk, RGC or whoever) then it may take a shot or two but usually you can punch through the last damage with consistent attacks. When Luke gets down 4-5 damage, the controlling player should get nervous, because he's vulnerable to a big punch. So mistakes can be made, being too cautious or too cavalier.

As a side note.

Ryan, what do you use your alliance smuggler for? Is it just extra activations, dice magnet, etc? Would Rebel High Command not be a worthwhile addition? I've never played the regular ASmugg, but the elite version is my favorite character to play. The regular pales in comparison, but I'll be the first to admit, I'm not as competitively minded as many in this game.

I personally don't like all the threads that people just post a list and say "thoughts?" like what is your strategy? are you trying to beat a specific team? specific map? Why are you playing this at all? If I wanted to just see lists I would go to IA builder

This thread here has awesome back and forth!

Lists that are good at countering this sort of Rebel list are those that have deadly or force rerolls. The list I'm working on right now is a Grand Inquisitor list that splashes in some HKs (there was a version of this in the top 8 at Gen Con I think). That would help against all those pesky X-men the Rebels might roll.

-ryanjamal

Yes, this is what I ran, and it really didn't have much trouble with Rebels at all. The game Ryan described (where I flanked with my Inquisitor to one-shot Leia) was my most difficult match vs Rebels all day, and even that one wasn't all that close in the end. Ryan had the upper hand (and I knew it) until I was able to drop Leia like that...after that things turned really quickly.

Here is the squad I used, and Ryan is right: it actually likes to fight White-dice lists. HKs love to shoot at those White dice characters, and the Inquistor's Deadly is...deadly. The squads I ended up losing to were trooper lists (once to Nick and also my T8 match vs Brian the Champion); I had hoped that the Inquisitor's Cleave 3 would help more vs the trooper lists, but in order to use it I often had to get in too close, where he could just get eaten up by mass fire.

Inquisition | 40 points

Elite Wing Guard is great, when you actually want a third unit of Elite Stormtroopers, or if you are playing scum. In your list, I would replace them with Elite Stormtroopers any day.

Elite Wing Guard is great, when you actually want a third unit of Elite Stormtroopers, or if you are playing scum. In your list, I would replace them with Elite Stormtroopers any day.

Exactly right. I thought that using them would give my squad a bit more flexibility and tactical options, but in the end it just wasn't worth it.

Troopers are probably the strongest list in the meta right now. Twins lists did not feature heavily in the top of the Gen Con North American Championship Tournament.

I used the following list and placed in the Final Four of Gencon...

• Luke Skywalker
• Leia Organa
• Davith Elso
• Obi-Wan Kenobi
• R2-D2
• C-3P0
• Gideon Argus w/ Diplomatic Mission
• Heroic Effort

It has a high ceiling if you roll well and get your Command Cards... Other games it feels like you have no chance of winning. It's not for everyone, but once you learn how to maximize the Twins, they're great. I hope people continue to sleep on them.

So how do you fair on missions like One Man's Trash, especially against a storm trooper spam list? I've run a list like that but I always struggle with objectives. I love got firepower and some hefty units, but I felt stretched too thin when I had to compete for objectives.

-ryanjamal

Ignore the objectives and place Obi in that room, so your opponent can't score on the objectives either.

Troopers are probably the strongest list in the meta right now. Twins lists did not feature heavily in the top of the Gen Con North American Championship Tournament.

I used the following list and placed in the Final Four of Gencon...

• Luke Skywalker
• Leia Organa
• Davith Elso
• Obi-Wan Kenobi
• R2-D2
• C-3P0
• Gideon Argus w/ Diplomatic Mission
• Heroic Effort

It has a high ceiling if you roll well and get your Command Cards... Other games it feels like you have no chance of winning. It's not for everyone, but once you learn how to maximize the Twins, they're great. I hope people continue to sleep on them.

What is your overall strategy vs trooper spam? How good is davith and is he better than lando? R2D2 work it for the scomp links or?

I still haven't been able to beat the rebel list. A similar list would be

I ran a Trandoshans, bossk and hired guns list against the twins, and while i did get beaten, i felt running the hired guns into luke and leia's line of sight and getting them up in their faces worked. they fired on my hired guns, if my guys were by a terminal. and i played the card 'of no importance' to keep the loss low.

it help shred the focus off them. my Trandoshans could then 'element of surprise' and dish out some damage. i managed to kill leia and luke.

You killed both of the twins but lost? How early into the match did you kill them? I only ask because once my twins go down I'm pretty much done for.

-ryanjamal

I still haven't been able to beat the rebel list. A similar list would be

- Bossk

- Greedo

- HK

- HK + explosive armaments

- Hired Gun + last resort

- Temp alliance

- Gideon

- C3-P0

Here is a list that I am currently running - http://ia-armies.com/army/EfYdlbZn

Troopers-Doids-Officer | 40 points

Deployment Cards

---------------------------

- Elite Stormtrooper

- Elite Stormtrooper

- Elite Heavy Stormtrooper

- Elite Probe Droid

- Elite Probe Droid

- Imperial Officer

- ▪ Zillo Technique

- Targeting Computer

Command Cards

------------------------

- Celebration

- Element of Surprise

- Expose Weakness

- Grenadier

- Hunter Protocol

- Recovery

- Reinforcements

- Reinforcements

- Take Initiative

- Maximum Firepower

- Jump Jets

- Of No Importance

- Negation

- Tough Luck

- Disorient

Either I am being too aggressive with my troopers and allow them to be killed by focused attacks or attacking the wrong enemy units.

Thoughts?

You're having trouble beating the Merc list and the Rebel list? just making sure I understand. (the Merc player should drop explosive armaments for either Devious Scheme or Prey on the Weak)

3 dice attacks are nothing to sneeze at, which is why focus with Rebels and rerolls are so nasty. The idea behind most trooper lists (easier said than played sometimes) is to overwhelm the enemy and kill them dead before you lose all your troopers, and then reinforce your troopers. So you almost want waves or to set up killzones. Most of the times your troopers are actually retreating or drawing the enemy into an area where they will get shot by 6-7 figures. So at the beginning you may move up cautiously and take a terminal or something, once the opponent starts chasing you, you retreat back to a point where you can have several figures shoot and back around a corner. You want to use your rerolls as much as possible as well. I love the eProbe Droids, but you may actually benefit from more officers just to get the movement you need as well as activations.

HKs when focused should be able to knock off Gideon/C3PO/Troopers. Pick them apart by sniping and running around corners. Tough Luck should be used to force an opponent to reroll a def dice and then remove it. Bossk should be moving and throwing grenades. Use Greedo and HGs as meat shields. Though Id prob would go with eWing Guards for 9 pts instead.

~D

You killed both of the twins but lost? How early into the match did you kill them? I only ask because once my twins go down I'm pretty much done for.

-ryanjamal

very late game, they already pretty much had all the victory points, i was just trying to play catch up