Hello there,

I have a question regarding that talent. The wording is:

When the character first acquires this talent, he may choose one Knowledge skill. When making checks with that skill, he may spend **Triumph** to gain additional **Succes** equal to his ranks in Knowledge Specialization.

So I guess this talent is usefull when you have to do a knowledge check that you are likely to fail but for which you had a triumph. Then you use that triumph for more succes. However, a triumph already gives a succes. Does it mean that if I have Knowledge specialization rank 1 it does:

1) Replace both the triumph and the succes effects of the triumph symbol by 1 succes.

2) Replace only the triumph effect of the triumpf symbol by one succes.

The case 1) doesn't make any sense to me because it would mean that this talent only becones effective at rank 2. But it is not so clear for me.

The tricky thing about Triumph and Despair is that they are actually two symbols, like the side of the Proficiency Die that has both a Success and an Advantage.

A Triumph has a Success symbol on that face of the die that works just like any other, and it also has the Triumph symbol which works like a super-Advantage. The two are no more connected then the Success and Advantage are on other faces. The Success can be cancelled by a Failure as normal without affecting the fact that you also got the super-Advantage symbol.

What you're spending when you spend a Triumph is the super-Advantage symbol, which does not include the Success. So if you have 2 ranks in Knowledge Specialization and use it, that Triumph result is worth three Successes: one from the normal Success, and two additional from spending the super-Advantage on Knowledge Specialization.

Thanks for your answer.

Hello there,

I allow myself for a little bump on this thread since I have another question regarding this talent and the Smooth Talker one as well since they work similarly. I understand how they work since it was the question asked when I opened this thread however, I must say that I am having a hard time to make my mind if these talents are really worth it beside the fact that for my case, as a Sage, I would need 35xp to buy two ranks of Knowledge specialization to get one of the Force rating talent. Thus, for you, what are the pros/cons of these Talents?

The big pro is that you can succeed on checks you had no right ever succeeding on.

The big cons are you don't get the major luck associated with the Triumph, you don't always roll the Triumph on the failure you could have used the talent on, and it's not useful every single time you do roll a Triumph with the associated skill.

In my mind the ability to really succeed on those very challenging checks is worth it, but you need to focus on the skill and be rolling 4 or so yellow dice on each check to have a decent chance of getting that Triumph when you actually need it.

Pro: The talent is there and available once you own it. If you roll a Triumph for the associated skill, it gives you an additional option to spend it on.

Pro: Remember, skill checks are not simply pass/fail. An end-result failure is just a failure, no matter how many surplus failures you have. But ending up with multiple successes makes for a better and better success. (FnD CRB pp. 20 under Success, and pp. 21 under Failure.)

Con: To me, the biggest con is that you select a single Knowledge skill when you pick up Knowledge Specialization the first time, and that one skill is all subsequent Knowledge Specializations will affect. Choose the wrong Knowledge skill, and you may not get as much use out of it. Same with Smooth Talker. Now, as I tell my players,you have to make use of your skills. Your character is good at this, that, and the other. It is up to you to create ways in which your skills (and talents) are useful and utilized. Don't wait to be prompted by the GM or the story to use a certain skill or talent. Use it. Write that story.

The key to this talent and it's social equivalent, Smooth Talker, is that with 1 rank it is not that useful. However, with 2 or more ranks, it allows you to turn that Triumph into 2, 3, or even 4+ successes in your specialized skill.

Also, keep in mind, that it is not obligatory to use it.

Hi, everybody. I just wanted to say thanks for asking a question I had floating in my mind, too. Would a Chagrian have the option to double-up on its talent option, or would they HAVE to both be the same? Thanks!

Hi, everybody. I just wanted to say thanks for asking a question I had floating in my mind, too. Would a Chagrian have the option to double-up on its talent option, or would they HAVE to both be the same? Thanks!

The book just says a Chagrian begins with a rank of Knowledge Specialization. So any further ranks of that talent you pick up would add to that first one. No doubling up bonus. Only one Knowledge skill would ever be affected.

I think this is an area where seeing how your GM wants to run things is important, especially in areas where the effects of triumphs and multiple successes overlap. The issue with Knowledge Specialization is that the basic knowledge skill rules state that extra successes only reduce the time for the check, whereas a triumph gives additional relevant, beneficial information. Unless you're under severe time pressure (and you likely already have Researcher to help with that), that's not going to be a useful trade, assuming you were succeeding on the check anyway.

This crops up with Smooth Talker as well, as the triumph results given in the book often obviate the need to get multiple successes. Extra successes on Charm extend the number of scenes an NPC will help you, but a triumph turns them into a recurring ally; extra successes on Coercion inflict strain, but a triumph completely breaks their will, and so on. Negotiation is the big exception here, as there is an interesting choice to be had between shifting the price of the transaction further vs. getting yourself a regular customer/specialist vendor, depending on how big your transaction is.

With that in mind, the only definite use of these talents is insurance against rolling failure with a triumph and being stuck without the baseline effect you were looking for. Beyond that, it depends on how your GM interprets the results.

Hi, everybody. I just wanted to say thanks for asking a question I had floating in my mind, too. Would a Chagrian have the option to double-up on its talent option, or would they HAVE to both be the same? Thanks!

Yeah, it'd have to be the same skill for each rank of Knowledge Specialization, no matter how your PC came by those talent ranks.

The key to this talent and it's social equivalent, Smooth Talker, is that with 1 rank it is not that useful. However, with 2 or more ranks, it allows you to turn that Triumph into 2, 3, or even 4+ successes in your specialized skill.

Also, keep in mind, that it is not obligatory to use it.

Pretty much, on both counts but especially with Smooth Talker.

While it is true that you'd lose out on the "nifty extras" that rolling a Triumph can provide, sometimes those extra successes can make the difference between a successful check or a failed one. It's about as close as you can get in this system to a means of ensuring you succeed a skill check.