So I've been reading through some various posts here and sort of have a handle on how defense works. It won't stack from the same source (armor on top of armor) as does soak. What I'm trying to figure out though, is if I have a character using armor with a defense value of 2, and a shield with a defense value of 2, since the defense is coming from different sources, will I have a defense value of 4?

I don't believe it will stack simply because of how potentially game breakingly difficult it may become to hit certain characters such as the one I'm running now, but part of the reason I'm playing the way I am is to try to help our GM find all the odd situations for the game she's running.

Thanks in advance!

No it wont stack. Word on the street is that FFG have been working on a clarification/solution for Defence, but its been a long time and no word has leaked out, so everyone is left mostly making their own interpretation.

Some Talents and the Defensive/Deflect weapon Qualitys stipulate that they "Increase" a characters Defence. So most players are looking for the highest "source" of defence - a single piece of Armour (Shields included) or Cover typically - it will say in its text "Provides Defence X". Then they modify those base numbers by the highest of any Talents or Weapon Qualities the character has.

Edit: essentially "Provides Defence X" doesn't stack with any other Defence with the same wording. Weapons that have a way of increasing Defence dont stack (no need to wield 2 defensive weapons). The Defensive talents and Weapons DO stack though.

eg:

Armoured Clothing, A Lightsaber Pike and 1 Rank of the Sixth Sense Talent would all stack to provide: Melee Defence 2, Ranged Defence 2.

Diving for cover would not help this character, except in avoiding being spotted in the first place.

Rules as written including errata if you have something that says provides defense value x, it does not stack with something that provides defense value x. So you use the highest of these,, if the talent or item says it adds to defense it adds to this base value , this being said if you have multiple sources of the weapon quality defensive or deflective again, these don't stack.

This all being said there is apparently a dev post where they state that even these don't stack and that the rule is being looked at.

If you really want to stack armor you need it to come from the same source currently jury rigged modded crafted augmented armor can get a defense rating of 4

from there you have to take armor master to get to 5 defense 6 requires force tree talents and I don't think 7 is possible, maybe someone will prove me wrong.

Hypothetically speaking there are a couple of Sixth Sense talents, and a rank of Superior Reflexes. Then there are 4 Ranks in Defensive Training. So added to your Defence 6 there is a possibility of Melee Defence 11, Ranged Defence 8. But I doubt the 7 Specialisations required would be worth it, that's 320xp just on the specs alone. Possibly not RAW either.

Hypothetically speaking there are a couple of Sixth Sense talents, and a rank of Superior Reflexes. Then there are 4 Ranks in Defensive Training. So added to your Defence 6 there is a possibility of Melee Defence 11, Ranged Defence 8. But I doubt the 7 Specialisations required would be worth it, that's 320xp just on the specs alone. Possibly not RAW either.

Actually, I believe Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes (I think that's the m. defense one) are unranked.

Hypothetically speaking there are a couple of Sixth Sense talents, and a rank of Superior Reflexes. Then there are 4 Ranks in Defensive Training. So added to your Defence 6 there is a possibility of Melee Defence 11, Ranged Defence 8. But I doubt the 7 Specialisations required would be worth it, that's 320xp just on the specs alone. Possibly not RAW either.

Actually, I believe Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes (I think that's the m. defense one) are unranked.

Pooh, so they are. So Ranged Defence 7 is the limit there. But you need 1 less spec to get it all, so 240xp plus a mountain of talents...

Honestly it's the Force Rating I would be more worried about with this character, there would be 5 on offer, although expensive.

Right now... according to RAW, a weapon with Defensive/Deflection would stack with armor/cover bonus and talents.

(I know this is up for Review by the Devs, but nothing has received an Errata so, right now, RAW it stacks according to the wording)

So in theory,....

-> Crafted Augmentative Armor could have 3/3 in melee/ranged defense.

-> Guard Shoto with modded Curved Hilt (would look weird... it's pure cheese and gaming the system) could have +2/+2 in melee/ranged defense. (or just equip a Riot/Gungan Shield)

-> Talents : Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes would give +1/+1 also.

-> Talents : Moving Target gives +2 Ranged defense (after acting that round)

-> Talents : Defensive Training gives +4 Melee defense (would replace the +2 from Guard Shoto or Shield)

-> Talents : Jury Rigged would up the armor by +1/+1

Right there you can have 9/9 melee/ranged defense.

But to make it simple... barring all the talents, you can "easily" get 5/5 defense with Armor and Shield.

We are testing in our group to allow stacking up to a value of 4. Which is analog to the ship defense zone rules which cap defense at 4 as well. Works so far quite good.

Soak stacks from different types of sources (like armor and cybernetics), but defense does not. Basically, take each item you have that can potentially provide defense, and apply talents, attachments, crystals, etc. to them to get their melee and ranged defenses. Then, use the highest value that you get for each type of defense. Melee and ranged defense do not have to come from the same source, but the final values of each must come from just one source. So, if, after everything is counted up, your weapon has Defensive 1 and Deflective 3 (melee defense 1, ranged defense 3), while your armor has Defense of 2 (melee defense 2, ranged defense 2), you'd end up with melee defense 2 (from armor) and ranged defense 3 (from weapon),

Personally, I allow the best source of Defensive/Deflection to stack with any defense bonus granted by armor or cover.

So at my table, a PC wearing Armored Clothing with vibrosword sitting behind cover would have Ranged Defense 1 (from the armor) and Melee Defense 2 (1 from armor, 1 from the vibrosword).

Despite the last comment from the devs (that multiple sources of defense don't stack), I'd say that Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes would still combine with any existing defense a PC has, mostly as those are top row talents and it makes no sense that their benefits would be overridden by equipment that's far easier to acquire.

I agree with you on sixth sense and superior reflexes but its been stated that defensive or deflective don't stack at all with any other source therefore a shoto doesn't stack with the armor also most talents dont stack by raw. I think jury rigging an equipment to add + ranged defense and using a mod to add + melee defense on armor does work, which is how I get the crafted augmented armor up to 4 defense.

I think a hard cap in the 4-6 range would be fine for defense and let everything stack might be fine.

Soak stacks from different types of sources (like armor and cybernetics), but defense does not. Basically, take each item you have that can potentially provide defense, and apply talents, attachments, crystals, etc. to them to get their melee and ranged defenses. Then, use the highest value that you get for each type of defense. Melee and ranged defense do not have to come from the same source, but the final values of each must come from just one source. So, if, after everything is counted up, your weapon has Defensive 1 and Deflective 3 (melee defense 1, ranged defense 3), while your armor has Defense of 2 (melee defense 2, ranged defense 2), you'd end up with melee defense 2 (from armor) and ranged defense 3 (from weapon),

F&D CRB p.163 :

Defensive (passive) : A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon's Defensive rating.

Deflection (passive) : An item with the Deflection quality increases the wearer's ranged defense by an amount equal to its Deflection rating.

Unless I missed an errata saying that it doesn't increase, but gives a static value, then it does stack with armor/cover.

You are right when saying that multiple sources don't stack... so having a Guard Shoto with Defensive 1 and a Riot Shield with Defensive 2, you'd pick the best source and have a final value of Defensive 2.... but that values would increase the Melee defense from your armor/cover if you had any.

F&D CRB p.141

Defensive Training : When the character wields a Lightsaber weapon, Melee weapon, or Brawl weapon, that weapon gains ranks in the Defensive item quality equal to the character's ranks in Defensive Training (this replaces any ranks in Defensive the weapon already has)

So Defensive Training doesn't stack with the weapon's inate Defensive value.

F&D CRB p.152

Sixth sense : The character gains +1 ranged defense.

RAW is quite clear, you increase the character ranged defense by 1... so if you had an armor that had 1 Defense, you'd get a total of Melee Defense 1 and Ranged Defense 2.

So according to RAW, you'd calculate your defense rating this way :

Melee Defense = (Best armor Defense value or Cover value) + (Best weapon Defensive value or Ranks in Defensive Training) + Superior Reflexes

Ranged Defense = (Best armor Defense value or Cover value) + (Best weapon Deflection value) + Sixth sense + Ranks in Moving Target

[i know this way you could get some pretty big Defense values... and that the Devs don't want bloated dice pools]

I agree with you on sixth sense and superior reflexes but its been stated that defensive or deflective don't stack at all with any other source therefore a shoto doesn't stack with the armor also most talents dont stack by raw. I think jury rigging an equipment to add + ranged defense and using a mod to add + melee defense on armor does work, which is how I get the crafted augmented armor up to 4 defense.

I think a hard cap in the 4-6 range would be fine for defense and let everything stack might be fine.

Where ?

Source ?

Just want to be up to date.

I agree with you on sixth sense and superior reflexes but its been stated that defensive or deflective don't stack at all with any other source therefore a shoto doesn't stack with the armor also most talents dont stack by raw. I think jury rigging an equipment to add + ranged defense and using a mod to add + melee defense on armor does work, which is how I get the crafted augmented armor up to 4 defense.

I think a hard cap in the 4-6 range would be fine for defense and let everything stack might be fine.

Where ?

Source ?

Just want to be up to date.

It's in the developer answered question thread. The problem is, they've answered it twice, gave conflicting answers, and then a few different people (myself included) asked a third and got a reply saying that the defense rules are under revision.

The second answer specified that no source of defense stacks at all, and you just pick the best one. I forget the first answer, but some have stated that one makes more sense.

Thanks Blackbird888

So I guess each of us can rule how we want at our table until they finish with their review.

I guess it's all a matter of pacing... if you focus on Defense a lot with your gear and talents, you're probably less effective on offense... so you miss more, but your enemies miss more also... this could make for longer fights... That might be the big deal about the current rules. I guess the Devs want the action to be fast and "deadly" so that a typical combat doesn't last 10 rounds, but max 5-6 rounds. It would be consistent with the Signature abilities which last on average 2 rounds and can be increased to 4-5 rounds.

I think 6 rounds is a good number for an epic fight with a Nemesis and his henchmen...

Dispatching minions (maybe 1 rival) during a lesser encounter should take 3-4 rounds tops.

Soak stacks from different types of sources (like armor and cybernetics), but defense does not. Basically, take each item you have that can potentially provide defense, and apply talents, attachments, crystals, etc. to them to get their melee and ranged defenses. Then, use the highest value that you get for each type of defense. Melee and ranged defense do not have to come from the same source, but the final values of each must come from just one source. So, if, after everything is counted up, your weapon has Defensive 1 and Deflective 3 (melee defense 1, ranged defense 3), while your armor has Defense of 2 (melee defense 2, ranged defense 2), you'd end up with melee defense 2 (from armor) and ranged defense 3 (from weapon),

F&D CRB p.163 :

Defensive (passive) : A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon's Defensive rating.

Deflection (passive) : An item with the Deflection quality increases the wearer's ranged defense by an amount equal to its Deflection rating.

Unless I missed an errata saying that it doesn't increase, but gives a static value, then it does stack with armor/cover.

You are right when saying that multiple sources don't stack... so having a Guard Shoto with Defensive 1 and a Riot Shield with Defensive 2, you'd pick the best source and have a final value of Defensive 2.... but that values would increase the Melee defense from your armor/cover if you had any.

F&D CRB p.141

Defensive Training : When the character wields a Lightsaber weapon, Melee weapon, or Brawl weapon, that weapon gains ranks in the Defensive item quality equal to the character's ranks in Defensive Training (this replaces any ranks in Defensive the weapon already has)

So Defensive Training doesn't stack with the weapon's inate Defensive value.

F&D CRB p.152

Sixth sense : The character gains +1 ranged defense.

RAW is quite clear, you increase the character ranged defense by 1... so if you had an armor that had 1 Defense, you'd get a total of Melee Defense 1 and Ranged Defense 2.

So according to RAW, you'd calculate your defense rating this way :

Melee Defense = (Best armor Defense value or Cover value) + (Best weapon Defensive value or Ranks in Defensive Training) + Superior Reflexes

Ranged Defense = (Best armor Defense value or Cover value) + (Best weapon Deflection value) + Sixth sense + Ranks in Moving Target

[i know this way you could get some pretty big Defense values... and that the Devs don't want bloated dice pools]

What you're describing is the way soak stacks. Soak does stack from different sources (from the CRB, they define armor and cybernetics as two "sources"). If defense stacked the same way, then yeah, you could get defense from both armor and weapons, but not from multiple pieces of armor, or multiple weapons.

But, defense doesn't stack. For qualities such as Defensive or Deflection, it comes from a particular item (generally a weapon), which is a "source" for the rating. So, you can think of Defensive, for example, as implying "increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating if this weapon is the source for his melee defense." So, after modifying your summary:

Melee Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Defensive value, or Ranks in Defensive Training [if weapon is lightsaber, melee, or brawl weapon]) + Superior Reflexes + Guarded Stance

Ranged Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Deflection value, or Cover value) + Sixth sense + (I don't know what Moving Target is, so I can't comment on it)

The second answer for now is what I am looking at as the correct answer" I rule that armor master jury rig mods on a specific source of equipment stack. I personally rule that only sixth sense and superior reflexes stack universally as 25 point talents whose only purpose is stacking and nothing else stacks at all.

So if you use defense rating from a weapon then it never stacks with armor/cover/most talents

If you use defense rating form armor it never stacks with weapons defense/cover/most talents

This is how I get the edge case of Defense 6 being the maximum. As I rule armor master specifically stacks based on the wording as does sixth sense and superior reflexes.

My guess is they will eventually cap defense at 4 or 6 and let everything stack, but this will create multiple paths and almost all players will end up with 4 and riot shield will be massively overpowered.

I agree with you on sixth sense and superior reflexes but its been stated that defensive or deflective don't stack at all with any other source....

To quote Director Fury...

"I recognize the Council has made a decision, but seeing as how it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it." (And I'd pay good money to have someone say exactly that line to the Jedi Council of the Prequel Era )

As I said in my post, that's how I'd run things at my table, which so happens to go in hand with the current FAQ and Sam Stewart's initial response, which occurred prior to Max Brooks' response (with which it should be clear that I very strongly disagree with). Really the only clarification the devs need to make is that multiple sources of Defensive don't stack, and multiple sources of Deflection don't stack, since that's really where the problem comes in.

What you're describing is the way soak stacks. Soak does stack from different sources (from the CRB, they define armor and cybernetics as two "sources"). If defense stacked the same way, then yeah, you could get defense from both armor and weapons, but not from multiple pieces of armor, or multiple weapons.

But, defense doesn't stack. For qualities such as Defensive or Deflection, it comes from a particular item (generally a weapon), which is a "source" for the rating. So, you can think of Defensive, for example, as implying "increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating if this weapon is the source for his melee defense." So, after modifying your summary:

Melee Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Defensive value, or Ranks in Defensive Training [if weapon is lightsaber, melee, or brawl weapon]) + Superior Reflexes + Guarded Stance

Ranged Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Deflection value, or Cover value) + Sixth sense + (I don't know what Moving Target is, so I can't comment on it)

Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes (as well as Guarded Stance) would be applied to individual "sources" of defense to determine what the highest value is. Since they're applied to all sources individually, it's easier to just add them in at the end (they're applied no matter what the "winning source" is). Cover and Defensive Training set your defense values, so they'd be counted as different "sources" for ranged and melee defense, respectively.

At least, this is what the devs are saying, and I kinda get where they're coming from. This is also the way my generator figures it out.

I'm not trying to be an ass here... sorry... but what you said about Defensive doesn't make any sense... unless a weapon/shield can have Defense and Defensive/Deflection, in which case your explanation could make sense... but I've never seen a weapon/shield having the Defense quality. So if they can't have the Defense quality, then Defensive couldn't increase it's Defense rating... The way you're explaining it is like this : if the weapon/shield has a Defense value of 0, and you choose this weapon has your source of Defense, then Defensive would increase its value by ranks in Defensive ; in that instance, the guy who wrote that rule should have been fired because kids from the elementary school are better at syntax (my syntax isn't always good either because english isn't my native langage).

Had the Dev worded Defensive by saying "A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality Gains melee defense equal to the weapon's Defensive rating", then I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, it says increases which iimplies it isn't a "source" of Defense, but a modifier.

Anyway... I don't want to argue with you because I greatly respect your work, contribution and dedication to this game.

I understand what you're saying.

If only the Devs could finally give us an update on the Defense rules so that we could all agree

Having a group with one shield-carrying Wookiee and one armourer heavily invested in crafting and the armour talents... I'm at where defence capping at 4 sounds ok I'm not a big proponent of it, but this way you could let everything stack, just apply the same limitation that you use with vehicles. It makes sense.

Now, I get where Oggdude is coming from: You can define everything except talents as sources of defence, and by raw they are not supposed to stack, any grants/provides/increase(s)/whatnot wording counts as source, whereas a +1 differs, and it not a source. Another way, the way we used to see it before the second dev answer (if I recall correctly,) is to only see armour and covers as sources of defence, the qualities and talents can modify the source. This makes kind of sense too, but allows for quite a good defence after a while, particularly with recent stuff and the inevitable power creep from having three lines, 18 careers, and lightsabers...

Both makes sense I think.

Even if you use the "old" one it requires quite an investment to get there, both in XP and money. Capping it at 4 or 5 may seem unfair to some, but not to me, but I don't think I'd enforce it either. I wouldn't necessarily say it's overpowered, even if defence 4 can make things pretty difficult pretty quickly - making combat go on for longer, but that in itself isn't always bad (as long as it's entertaining and fun for everyone) ...

The second answer also makes sense, it prevents people from becoming that powerful defence monkey. And it forces... nay provides the players with opportunity to think differently about his character and the point of the game.

What you're describing is the way soak stacks. Soak does stack from different sources (from the CRB, they define armor and cybernetics as two "sources"). If defense stacked the same way, then yeah, you could get defense from both armor and weapons, but not from multiple pieces of armor, or multiple weapons.

But, defense doesn't stack. For qualities such as Defensive or Deflection, it comes from a particular item (generally a weapon), which is a "source" for the rating. So, you can think of Defensive, for example, as implying "increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating if this weapon is the source for his melee defense." So, after modifying your summary:

Melee Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Defensive value, or Ranks in Defensive Training [if weapon is lightsaber, melee, or brawl weapon]) + Superior Reflexes + Guarded Stance

Ranged Defense = (Highest of best armor Defense value, best weapon Deflection value, or Cover value) + Sixth sense + (I don't know what Moving Target is, so I can't comment on it)

Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes (as well as Guarded Stance) would be applied to individual "sources" of defense to determine what the highest value is. Since they're applied to all sources individually, it's easier to just add them in at the end (they're applied no matter what the "winning source" is). Cover and Defensive Training set your defense values, so they'd be counted as different "sources" for ranged and melee defense, respectively.

At least, this is what the devs are saying, and I kinda get where they're coming from. This is also the way my generator figures it out.

I'm not trying to be an ass here... sorry... but what you said about Defensive doesn't make any sense... unless a weapon/shield can have Defense and Defensive/Deflection, in which case your explanation could make sense... but I've never seen a weapon/shield having the Defense quality. So if they can't have the Defense quality, then Defensive couldn't increase it's Defense rating... The way you're explaining it is like this : if the weapon/shield has a Defense value of 0, and you choose this weapon has your source of Defense, then Defensive would increase its value by ranks in Defensive ; in that instance, the guy who wrote that rule should have been fired because kids from the elementary school are better at syntax (my syntax isn't always good either because english isn't my native langage).

Had the Dev worded Defensive by saying "A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality Gains melee defense equal to the weapon's Defensive rating", then I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, it says increases which iimplies it isn't a "source" of Defense, but a modifier.

Anyway... I don't want to argue with you because I greatly respect your work, contribution and dedication to this game.

I understand what you're saying.

If only the Devs could finally give us an update on the Defense rules so that we could all agree

I'm just the messenger That's how Sam Stewart says it works, so that's how it works in my generator. As I said, I kind of get where they're coming from, but the wording in the rules could be a lot more clear. Yes, it does say that Defensive increases melee defense, but then it also says that different sources don't stack, so what to do?. I guess one way of looking at it is that if a "source" doesn't have Defense (like a weapon), then it is assumed to have Defense 0.

Can we find a Fiction or Fluff explanation to the way the Defense "stacking" works in both cases?

1) The first where Defense does stack, it's kinda easy as all the sources mitigate the chances of bodily harm. But than wouldn't cover for example increase your soak as well as defense because you can shot through brick walls with a big enough caliber slowing it's impact? Yet with a cover large enough you can sit crouched enough that likely hits might actually miss you so it should also increase Defense. (Thinking of this this way i might understand why the developers will opt to not do it like that as it involves "too much realism" something this game tries to avoid so as to keep it's narrative play style)

2) how does one explain the second way of looking at it(choosing the best of all Defenses available)? does one need to position himself a certain way to enjoy the deflection of his armor but this hurts the way his lightsaber or riot shield protects him as they need a different body position? or that big and bulky armor is a great soaker but don't plan on moving as fast with your hands as to avoid potential shots(that doesn't make sense as power is mass x velocity)?

Maybe it doesn't matter if the lightsaber deflected a bolt or not, since the armor would have taken care of it anyway? Or just say it did deflect it if it's cinematically cooler, since the lightsaber's defense is inclusive with the armor's (pick and choose depending on your mood).

I don't know. One thing's for certain, though... FFG does need to clarify how and why it works the way they say, since lots of people are very confused

Actually, power is work divided by time (P=W/t) and is measured in watts.

You might be thinking of force (not THE Force of course) which is mass times acceleration (F=m*a), measured in newtons. Acceleration is velocity squared (v^2).

Sorry, back to dodging blasters.