As the title says, I was thinking about synergies between the six lightsabre forms in F&D. In a nutshell, I was wondering which combinations of two forms are going well together and for which purpose.

For exemple, I would think that taking both Ataru striker/Makashi duelist or Soresu denfender/Shien expert would not had much. In the Ataru striker/Makashi duelist combination, you would get an offence power house while it would be a defense one for the Soresu denfender/Shien expert combination. An Ataru striker/Soresu defender seems to me much more beneficial. However, I might be really wrong there.

Mainly, the question could be the following. If you have a character who is a specialist of one of the six form and you could learn a second form. Which one would you choose and why?

So I am just curious to hear your opinion about it.

P.S. I looked for a similar topic with the search tool but couldn’t find any.

It really depends on whether you're looking for synergy, meaning talents that are even better in combination than separately, or diversification, broadening your usefulness. Ataru/Soresu is the latter, giving you the option of either sitting back and defending or leaping forward and attacking, depending on what the situation calls for, but Soresu doesn't really help an Ataru Striker hit harder, and Ataru doesn't do much to improve the defensive capabilities of a Soresu Defender (or at least, not in ways that you couldn't get from any other lightsaber tree).

One interesting combination is Soresu/Shii-Cho. Soresu is mostly active defenses, i.e. defensive abilities you have to activate and which cost strain. Shii-Cho provides passive defensive bonuses in the form of Defensive Training and Durable, which in combination with Center of Being help prevent the opponent from crit-fishing to take out the defender. Not to mention, Shii-Cho has two ranks of Second-Wind, which helps the Soresu Defender stretch their strain economy further. In addition, Shii-Cho provides effective options for switching to offense: Sum Djem is very good at neutralizing a dangerous opponent with a strong weapon (such as another lightsaber wielder), and Multiple Opponents and Sarlaac Sweep help the Defender deal with multiple melee opponents who might overwhelm their ability to parry. Still, it's hard to argue with picking up Shien to get Supreme Reflect.

Of course, if you're building a thoroughgoing lightsaber specialist, Niman might be a strong choice purely because it offers an increase to your Force Rating while also improving your defenses and offering a tiny dash of social ability. All of the lightsaber trees save Shii-Cho have at least one talent that allows you to add your Force Rating to a Lightsaber roll, and you're not going to get much reliable effect out of those if your Force Rating is stuck at 1. Speaking of Niman, Niman/Makashi is an interesting combination, considering they have stacking ranks of Defensive Training and a similar emphasis on social characteristics.

I think I have to second Niman Disciple as being a good support for any lightsaber style. I figure most Force users will want a decent Willpower and Force Rating, even if you're not playing a "Force Wizard." Niman isn't flashy, but it's very solid, relies on Willpower, and has Draw Closer, which is always a good trick to have in your pocket. Soresu, Ataru, or whatever will be your source of fancy tricks, Niman will be the sturdy, overlooked support.

Yeah, there's very few LS Forms where picking up Niman Disciple as your second spec isn't beneficial in some way.

Yes, it takes a while to get to that Force Rating talent (and thus reaching Force Rating 2), but you pick up a whole lot of useful talents along the way, such as two ranks of Defensive Training and three ranks each of Parry and Reflect, to say nothing of ranks in Grit and Toughened, as well as Center of Being to further help protect against opponents looking to take you out with critical injuries.

And as TGF noted, most Force user PCs tend to have a good Willpower, so being able to fall back on Niman Technique when your primary characteristic for making Lightsaber combat checks gets impaired by a critical injury doesn't hurt.

And as TGF noted, most Force user PCs tend to have a good Willpower, so being able to fall back on Niman Technique when your primary characteristic for making Lightsaber combat checks gets impaired by a critical injury doesn't hurt.

Or when you can't quite get close enough, but you still need to put a stab on a fool.

Thanks for the interesting answers.

Lots of stuff.

Thanks, that was pretty much what I was looking for when opening this topic. I am both interested in synergy combinations and diversification combinations. I am happy to read more of it if you have time to developp further.

However, in your last sentense, you mentioned the emphasis on social from the Makashi but beside his need for Presence, I don't see that from his Talents. But I might have missed something.

Yeah, there's very few LS Forms where picking up Niman Disciple as your second spec isn't beneficial in some way.

And as TGF noted, most Force user PCs tend to have a good Willpower, so being able to fall back on Niman Technique when your primary characteristic for making Lightsaber combat checks gets impaired by a critical injury doesn't hurt.

Thanks for the indea about having two possible characteristics for lightsaber use in case of critical injury.

For which lightsaber form do you think picking up Niman Disciple as a second spec would not be so beneficial? Also, after reading the three of you, I feel that for you, the Niman Disciple is very good as a second choice to add to a first lightsaber spec which in the end, looked to me like it wouldn't be a good choice as a first lightsaber spec.

Thanks for the interesting answers.

Thanks, that was pretty much what I was looking for when opening this topic. I am both interested in synergy combinations and diversification combinations. I am happy to read more of it if you have time to developp further.

However, in your last sentense, you mentioned the emphasis on social from the Makashi but beside his need for Presence, I don't see that from his Talents. But I might have missed something.

I guess I didn't develop that thought well. My main thrust was that a character with the Presence to use Makashi well might like picking up Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions on the way to more lightsaber talents, and a Niman Disciple who uses those talents as a way to develop social skills as a secondary focus might appreciate finding more uses for their Presence score in Makashi.

Thanks for the indea about having two possible characteristics for lightsaber use in case of critical injury.

For which lightsaber form do you think picking up Niman Disciple as a second spec would not be so beneficial? Also, after reading the three of you, I feel that for you, the Niman Disciple is very good as a second choice to add to a first lightsaber spec which in the end, looked to me like it wouldn't be a good choice as a first lightsaber spec.

I think Niman is a good choice for a first lightsaber spec if wielding a lightsaber is not your character's primary focus. It provides you with good defensive options to keep you alive long enough to do your thing, and something Draw Closer and Force Assault have in common is that they make your offense just a little bit more reliable if your Lightsaber skill isn't quite up to snuff. It is a fairly passive tree to build a lightsaber specialist around, though.

I think another good combination is Shii-Cho/Shien. A Shii-Cho user sticks with Brawn as their Lightsaber characteristic, and Falling Avalanche therefore makes for an obvious way to get double the punch from a high Brawn. Shien also provides Reflect talents, which Shii-Cho is lacking in, and Djem-So Deflection gives a way to more quickly close with ranged opponents, which is also something Shii-Cho lacks. Not to mention that Warrior provides access to some Cunning skills, making it easier to justify as a secondary characteristic (especially if Aggressor makes it into the mix somehow).

Since I've been neglecting Ataru, I'll point out that Makashi/Ataru strikes me as a solid pairing. Makashi, like Shii-Cho, is very melee focused and lacks ways to close more decisively with opponents who do not want to be in melee; Ataru provides both Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Throw to help with that. Makashi brings to the table Cool as a career skill, which will help you use those Quick Strike talents, and strong in-battle strain recovery in the form of Makashi Flourish to help with all those strain-spending Ataru talents. Plus, having both Makashi Finish and Saber Swarm gives you flexibility in going for either a string of hits or nasty crits depending on which suits your opposition more (or combine the two if your advantage generation is that good) , and whether you start Mystic or Seeker, you have a 2 Force Rating spec in your career for when you need a higher rating.

Just a comment about going Niman. If you start as a Makashi first, it's 10 points cheaper to go into Seer and get a FR boost than it is to go into Niman. Same with Niman if you go Sage. That being said, Seer is a good enough spec to pay the extra 10 points over Sage if you start Niman and you're building a Force wizard. I personally feel Makashi/Niman has strong synergy with its Defensive talents and 2 FR is fine (for Sense upgrades) if you're just going Jedi/Sith killer. Add in the Crystal that adds a rank of parry and you'll be kind of stupid good vs melee/Lightsaber opponents and solid overall as a Leader/Face type.

First things first. Any talent that adds your Force Rating to the skill check can NOT be used with other talents (or force powers) that do the same thing. So you can't Saber Throw a Makashi Finish. The Form specific attacks that specify a Lightsaber Characteristic MUST be used with that characteristic. Saber Swarm also ONLY works if your next Lightsaber attack is using Agility as the characteristic, so no Saber Swarm with Draw Closer etc.

I'll go into good talent combinations later.

I think that there is great sinergy in Soresu/Shien. because both Supreme Parry/Reflect only work when you don't make combat checks previously. So if you were focusing on that (maybe using Strategic form or a force power like Bind or Harm), it works great. Not so much if you focus on the Shien tree and be more offensive with the lightsaber.

Ataru/Makashi would make for a duelist powerhouse. I would neglect the tree section that goes to Makashi Finish because it's very expensive to get there and it is redundant with the offensive power you already get with Ataru. But the Resist Disarm and many Parry talents helps you a lot. You will be very focused on melee attack/defense but you will be great at it.

Soresu and Niman are very good secondary trees. They work great with anything because they give you some defensive talents and many parry/reflect talents. Soresu gives you both improved versions and Niman gives you that force point (although it's quite expensive to get it). Niman is great for force wizards because you get some defensive talents but you still get that force point.

In general I would argue against picking up multiple attribute specific force talents if you can, specially the offensive ones. They tend to be a bit redundant and it's quite hard to be great at both.

As a final note I would like to point out that one of the problems of focusing on 2 lighsaber forms is that you delay your force points. Because of that, your shiny lightsaber talent that depends on force rating will be quite weak for a long time.

On my side, I feel that a Soresu defender expert would be a nice addition to a Niman disciple. The Soresu seems to be more a passive spec with Talent such as Improved Parry, Supreme parry and Strategic form. First of all, having 2 Force dices (or 3 because a Niman disciple would have a not so expensive way to get Force rating talent through the Sage specialization), the Niman/Soresu wouldn’t have much problem extending Strategic form for a few rounds for one target or a few ones. Then, he doesn’t have to take any combat action until the end of Strategic form but rely on Improved/Supreme parry to strike back with lightsaber (Willpower) combat check. Then, on any missed strike back, he could use the Move force power which add extra means to damage the opponents or to do other cool stuff.

However, I am not sure that my reasoning is correct or would apply well in actual combat or would be too much situational.

Ok in general your best to avoid 2 Lightsaber Forms that don't have a +1 Force Rating in them. Most of the flashy talents are quite limited with a FR 1 but become more flexible and importantly reliable with a higher Force Rating. Saber Throw is a great example of this, it takes 2 Force Pips to have the Saber return to your hand, a 1 in 3 occurrence on 1 Force Dice, but guaranteed on 2 Force Dice (ignoring the Light/Dark Side choice).

For that purpose Niman is often going to be a wonderful 2nd choice, it's almost a no brainier. But outside the offical Forms there are currently 2 other Specs with something mechanical to offer a Saber user (and more above that which have non Lightsaber related benefits).

The first is Armorer, with Saber Throw its can help a few of the less mobile Forms such as Soresu and Makashi. Then with the Supreme Armour Master talent you can improve survivability against a heavy critting opponent and Falling Avalanche can increase damage output. On top of that even a low Intelect character can benefit from the talents to help them modify the crystals of their Saber. Then Imbue item can help when a Saber is inappropriate and some other random improvised weapon is all that's available.

Second is the Protector. With a rank each of Parry and Reflect its got a bit for any Saber user, then Circle of Shelter helps extend that usefulness. After that all those Stimpack Specialist talents really help keep you and your team going. With 2 cheap toughened its great for WT as well.

Notable mentions are:

Wardens left hand side, Precision Strike, Grapple, Overbalance and Confidence can all help significantly with or without your Saber, the 2 Toughened and 2 Grits both help too.

Seer has a bunch of ways to avoid combat, make hitting you harder with Dodge and 2 Rapid Reactions to always go first , but most Saber Forms with a Force Rating of 3 just get ridiculous.

Executioner is brutal. Hunters Quary is the only useless talent if destroying your opponents is the goal. Essential Kill is particularly useful since the Triumph option also adds the success associated, for the Forms that have no way of adding Advantage or Success it's a useful alternative to the normal attack... Also good with other weapons.

Hermit, good for Ataru in particular with cheap entry and 2 FR, but it's Harass and Menace that often get overlooked, both increase the chances of Threat or Despair being rolled by an enemy attacking the character. What do Improved Reflect and Parry need? Threat or Despair!

Hunter is great for characters focusing on Reflect, or expecting to fight beasts a lot. The 2 Side Step ranks can give more chance to triggering Imp Reflect, so does Sixth Sense.

Aggressor has plenty going for it too, if your a mean SOB and want to scare the pants of your enemies prior to disembowelling them. Prey on the weak with the right Saber Crystal is the go here if your not keen on Terrify.

Ok now finally the Forms themselves.

Niman: 3 main things here; Force Rating, Defensive Training/Sum Djem, and the 3 Parry/Reflect talents. Force Rating was discussed earlier, but DT/SD is an interesting one. DT has no cost yet helps increase the chances of Threat from an opponent, so any Form which benefits from that should be considering this; Improved P/R, Sum Djem, and Counter Strike. Basically any of the other forms can utilise this Form in some way. Of particular note is Soresu, with 7 Parry and 6 Reflect, 2 Def Training, 2 Def Stance and both Imp R&P it's a retaliation monster. Although with no way to directly recover Strain during combat it is a tough balance.

Soresu: this is a tank, 4 Parry & 3 Reflect in one tree. Both Imp P&R plus Supreme Parry makes this an great character for waiting for the opposition to come to you, any other form that has non attack options is a good choice, such as Nimin with a Force Power.

Makashi is an incredible pairing, for 10 Parry ranks and Supreme Parry, along with Makashi Flourish you can Parry all day.

Also pairs well with Shien, the combination of both Supreme P&R with 7 ranks in both makes for one durable character. Counter Strike works very well with the 2 ranks of Defensive Training.

Makashi: Getting in close is important, so Draw Closer (Nimin), Hawk Bat Swoop (Ataru) and Djem So Deflection are great to have to close quicker. Makashi Finish is at its best when you can hit multiple times in a single action, so 2 Sabers or a Double Saber are important, plus anything that can increase Advantage rolled, the main being Multiple Opponents from Shii-Cho, which also includes 4 Parry talents to take the total up to 9. Sarlacc Sweep is a nice alternative to Makashi Finish too, increasing damage output significantly and still able to use Presence as the Lightsaber Skill. Nimin is also great, for that extra rank of Defensive Training and Draw Closer.

Ataru: the one PC death machine. With no ways of recovering strain it suffers in a long fight, any other Form which has ways of recovering that strain is helpful, Makashi in particular with its 3 Grit, intense presence and Makashi Flourish. With 4 different Talents that use Force Rating it also pairs incredibly well with Nimin, lots of P&R talents, the Defensive Training and of course FR+1

Shien: Supreme Reflect is amazing if there are other Actions your character would prefer to be doing and some pesky NPC keeps shooting at you, pairs very well with either Nimin or Soresu to increase the Reflect Ranks.

Shii-Cho: being that all its offensive talents can be use with any Lightsaber(Characteristic) this is one flexible Spec. 4 Parrys and improved Parry can enhance or broaden any of the other Specs... But Sarlacc Sweep is the crown jewel. SS is effectively the same difficulty as using 2 Sabers and Two Weapon Combat, except it only requires one Saber and can hit multiple targets, great against Minions or groups of Rivals.

TL;DR

Nimin goes with everything. Soresu with Makashi makes an incredible melee fighter, so does Shii-Cho and Makashi. Soresu and Shien makes an amazing Tank, and Reflects incredibly. Ataru is frightening with Nimin, but strain recovery from Makashi can be great too, Hermit is an even better choice. Shii-Cho broadens anything. Artisan toughens most forms and makes Mods much easier. Protector + Soresu + Shien is the best bodyguard money can't buy.

There are heaps of options, but finally my question to you: why restrict yourself to Saber Forms only? It's cool, but there are often better options.

Thanks for this very interesting reply.

This post wasn't so much to help me building a character but more to learn more about the system and its possibilities regarding lightsaber and I guess I naively thought that the best was to take a second form. However, I am very happy to read about better options like what you mentioned with Protector or Hermit. I would would like to read your opinion on what I wrote earlier regarding the Niman/Seresu combo.

Hmm! I was going to take the Soresu defender. But this Niman is actually REALLY good synergy for my Scii-cho! Getting 3 black dies for enemy attacks is a great boon, once I get there that is.

Alright: Soresu/Niman is quite the brute, especially in Melee, but dealing with ranged opponents too. Because of the 2 Defensive Training talents in Niman the Defensive Circle talent is frightening, one provides a flat defence, the other then increases the melee number by 2, you could end up with 4 or even 5 melee defence from that! Then throw on top of it the Defensive Stance talent and you can almost ensure 3 threat or a Despair to trigger Improved Parry.

Then you have the Sum Djem talent, a bit of versatility that goes a long way with Soresu.

The Force Assault talent is the centre point though, it's going to dictate your entire character. Because it only works if you're making a Lightsaber(Willpower) roll you will want Willpower to be your main Characteristic for attacks. Intelect is still very important because of the previously mentioned Defensive Circle, but it's not everything.

Draw Closer is an excellent addition to all this too. The wording "within Medium range" includes anything in Short and Engaged as well. So basically if you have already gotten in the face of your opponent then Draw Closer allows you to pile Success onto the attack, increasing the damage dealt for that attack, especially with a Double Saber or when wielding 2 Sabers.

Then there is the Force Rating increase... Exceptionally useful.

The biggest problem with this combination is there is no talent for Strain Recovery. To counter this one of the Saber Crystals allows you to spend Force Pips in combat to recover strain, I would definitely recommend getting that one, especially with the Force Rating 2.

I'm a fan of Niman Disciple mixed with Protector. The ability to pick up three Center of Being picks along with Center of Being (Improved) in Niman is very useful in reducing the critical hits taken in lightsaber duels.

A very interesting reply again.

Hmm! I was going to take the Soresu defender. But this Niman is actually REALLY good synergy for my Scii-cho! Getting 3 black dies for enemy attacks is a great boon, once I get there that is.

How do you get 3 black dies? I see two from the defensive trainning talent but I don't get where the third one is coming from.

A very interesting reply again.

Hmm! I was going to take the Soresu defender. But this Niman is actually REALLY good synergy for my Scii-cho! Getting 3 black dies for enemy attacks is a great boon, once I get there that is.

How do you get 3 black dies? I see two from the defensive trainning talent but I don't get where the third one is coming from.

I already have one from Scii-cho tree. So if I go Niman, I can get 2 more.

A very interesting reply again.

Hmm! I was going to take the Soresu defender. But this Niman is actually REALLY good synergy for my Scii-cho! Getting 3 black dies for enemy attacks is a great boon, once I get there that is.

How do you get 3 black dies? I see two from the defensive trainning talent but I don't get where the third one is coming from.

I already have one from Scii-cho tree. So if I go Niman, I can get 2 more.

Got it, thanks you.

What force powers would you combine for Makashi Duelist, to protect yourself from large groups of enemies, distance, and blaster bolts?

I was thinking Force Leap to cover distance, but to execute it as a manuver you'll have to pay 50xp. I was thinking Bind, but I've heard that Move is the same or even better. Maybe Misdirect, if they cant see you they wont shoot you. Or protect to take blaster bolts like vader, and then unleash to like Dooku!

Theoretically, Move can make for a good answer to answer distance attackers, as could Protect. The trouble with using Force Powers to fill in gaps for a Lightsaber user, though, is that in addition to the experience spent on the powers themselves, you also need to improve your Force Rating to use them reliably, which means adding another spec and spending somewhere on the order of 60-70 XP working your way to the Talent. If your primary aim is dealing with large groups of blaster-wielding enemies attacking at a distance, then you might get better mileage going into Shien, which can give you 3 ranks of Reflect and Supreme Reflect for 90 XP. It also has Saber Throw and Djem So Deflection to help you with enemies at a distance. Otherwise, the best course of action might be to jump into Niman to pick up Reflect and Defensive Training on your way to Force Rating.

The answer to Distance attackers is Full Force Leap from enhance combined with Hawkbat swoop or Draw Closer.

Basically you force leap twice using maneuvers and then Hawk Bat Swoop or Draw Closer as your action. Or As I like to call it Do The Yoda.

This can also be done to play havoc on less mobile melee opponents as you jump in and out of striking distance.

What force powers would you combine for Makashi Duelist, to protect yourself from large groups of enemies, distance, and blaster bolts?

I was thinking Force Leap to cover distance, but to execute it as a manuver you'll have to pay 50xp. I was thinking Bind, but I've heard that Move is the same or even better. Maybe Misdirect, if they cant see you they wont shoot you. Or protect to take blaster bolts like vader, and then unleash to like Dooku!

There are a couple of ways a Makashi Duelist could learn to deal with Ranged combatants. First off with only a Force Rating of 1 your very limited in choice of Force Powers which will have a reliable effect on those enemies at range. Here are a couple of different strategies and how to achieve them:

1. Get to them quickly. As is obvious this method is about getting yourself to the enemy as fast as possible.

• Enhance with Force Leap as a Maneuver is the simplest way to do this, 50xp and you can move over obsticals at a normal movement rate reliably, with only FR1 your chance of rolling 2 Force Pips is limited, so moving faster than normal is less reliable. Maximum range covered using this twice as maneuvers is Long to Engaged, with an action still available.
• Niman Disciple has the Draw Closer Talent, it allows you to both attack (MUST use Willpower) at medium range and hopefully get the enemy engaged with you using 2 Force Pips, but it will cost 95xp. With that though you do get some handy talents, including Reflect and your make your way closer to the FR talent at the bottom. Its not too reliable though since you need 2 Force pips to move the enemy from Medium to Engaged. Maximum range covered with this and 2 Move maneuvers is Long to Engaged.
• Ataru Striker has Hawk Bat Swoop, Limited to short range, but effectively allows you to move twice then move a third time as part of attacking. MUST be used with Agility for the attack though. 90xp with some handy talents along the way. Maximum distance covered with 2 Move maneuvers is 1/2 Long to Engaged.
• Pathfinder has the Quick Movement Talent. You wont get to move and attack with your laser sword in the same turn, but its a rather good option none the less since it applies to any skill check that hasn't already got Force Dice added to the pool. A good option here is to have a Pistol in one hand to use at range, then your Saber for up close. biggest drawback is the 2 Force Pip cost, but Pathfinder does have a FR talent so theres always that. 80xp cost, with stuff along the way, to be able to move twice, act then move again... unreliably.
• Shien Expert has the Djem So talent. it requires you to spend a Destiny Point after Reflecting an attack, but you get to use a Move maneuver out of turn, getting you that bit closer. 95xp cost (including a rank of Reflect)
• Move force power should fit in here, moving the target closer to you, but to be honest without a Force Rating of 3 and some decent xp in Move your not picking up entire squads at Long Range to get them to you.

More to come later.

What force powers would you combine for Makashi Duelist, to protect yourself from large groups of enemies, distance, and blaster bolts?

I was thinking Force Leap to cover distance, but to execute it as a manuver you'll have to pay 50xp. I was thinking Bind, but I've heard that Move is the same or even better. Maybe Misdirect, if they cant see you they wont shoot you. Or protect to take blaster bolts like vader, and then unleash to like Dooku!

There are a couple of ways a Makashi Duelist could learn to deal with Ranged combatants.

Might I also suggest:

• Let someone else handle it.

No, seriously. The stormtroopers burst in on the other side of the spaceport, and in response, the Wookie Shii-Cho Knight roars while the green, tattooed chick starts Parkour flipping at them, both of them with lightsabers ignited. You're a little fancy man who ducks behind some crates. I guarantee that those guys are taking all the fire. Now's your chance to get the ship ready for takeoff, or find a worthy villain you can leap out and challenge, or just start flinging Force Powers at them. Move is very good, and covers a lot of bases, but it's expensive to cover them. Bind, Sense, and Protect/Unleash are all pretty handy for protecting you.