I just don't get it. the FIRST maneuver right at the start, dude lays his template down in front of the Y-Wing, and actually moves the y-wing a little bit to the side before locking the template in, seemingly to make sure he avoids the Debris in front of the ship.

Are people just this sloppy or they really that sneaky?

For the record, I've heard just some aweful stories of people outright abusing or borderline cheating at some of the games at Gencon this year...sheesh.

Personally, I'm pretty sloppy. I got some fat fingers and I'm always tapping things when trying to make moves.

It's tough to be as precise as Vassal. It's a physical game with physical minis moved by imperfect hands. Plus there are always minute variations in templates and bases.

Generally I don't think the kind of micro mistakes that the game has baked into its movement system determine the winner or loser of a game. Barring an edge case where someone barely clips an asteroid or something on a crux turn, the person who built a solid list and flew it better than their opponent is going to win.

I think sloppy. There is absolutely no reason to be sneaky on his first turn; he can set up the ship so that it won't hit the obstacle.

I seem to remember that his opponent was also pretty sloppy with some of his moves. A lot of it is probably just nerves. They are in the semi-finals at Gen-Con.

My hands shake like crazy when I'm playing in even casual tournaments, I can't even imagine.

That match was tough to watch because of how sloppy both players were. Tokens not getting moved and such.

There is very little overall impetus on players, and really none from FFG, to play cleanly.

FFG showed themselves to be very toothless in regards to enforcing proper play.

If you want to play X-Wing with perfect precision / zero physical errors, play X-Wing on Vassal or TTS. Players should make a reasonable effort to be as precise as possible (and this is explicitly stated in the rules), but you're dealing with physical objects being moved by people, and people aren't machines. Things will get nudged.

My hands are constantly shaking. Even more when I am on the tournament. I am deffinatelly sloppy.

If you want to play X-Wing with perfect precision / zero physical errors, play X-Wing on Vassal or TTS. Players should make a reasonable effort to be as precise as possible (and this is explicitly stated in the rules), but you're dealing with physical objects being moved by people, and people aren't machines. Things will get nudged.

This. So much of this.

This forum seems to have a lot of brain surgeons, bomb disposal experts and astronautical engineers, who see anything but precision moving as deliberate cheating. I'm just a fat fingered goon.

Hope to whatever deities there may or may not be that I never end up on a stream... I'll be lambasted.

There is very little overall impetus on players, and really none from FFG, to play cleanly.

FFG showed themselves to be very toothless in regards to enforcing proper play.

Hope to whatever deities there may or may not be that I never end up on a stream... I'll be lambasted

And this right here is what absolutely kills me about threads like this. Being featured on a stream or VOD match should be something fun - even something to be proud of. Maybe your list is super fun and you want to show it off... maybe you have a sweet repaint you did... maybe you made it to the top tables. These are all reason why being in a camera match should be awesome.

Sadly, the looming threat of having the armchair lynch mobs screaming "cheater!" or calling people sloppy / bad / suspicious can make players not want to be on camera, and that, frankly, sucks.

Posting a video link and saying "hey is this cheating or just people being sloppy?" does nothing that is actually useful. What it does do is give a a bunch of petty people a new outlet of the day where they can snipe at someone and put them down while hiding safely behind anonymity - all while extolling their own absolutely perfect dexterity / precision / tactical acumen.

If you see something on a video or in person that actually looks like cheating (remember: cheating requires intent) and not just "maybe, I can't really tell..." then try to get word to the TO that you think something is fishy. 99 times out of 100 if there's actually something amiss, the TO will already have their eye on the player in question and they will take any needed steps to ensure that the player(s) in question stop cheating or stop playing in events.

I don't know if FFG has anything equivalent to a DCI number for sanctioned events. If they do, then cheaters will very quickly find themselves banned from competitive play. If FFG doesn't yet use a system like that, then the player base is small enough that word of mouth should be enough to keep known cheaters away from high-level events, and local scenes are often very good at self-regulating.

Stuff gets knocked around it happens the ships have no real weight and the slightest brush will move them, not everyone is cheating.

I don't like playing against sloppy players. If my 6 and a half year old is more precise with his template than you are (and he often is), the other player should spend more time trying to be precise rather than rush through it. The line between "sloppy" and "voluntarily fudging a movement" is too slight for you to take a chance on it, especially as more and more games are recorded.

It's really not that hard: carefully put the template in (hold the ship if necessary) making sure it's seated, the hold the template as you move the ship to the other side. My hands experience slight random tremors since I got CTS surgery a few years back and even I can do it properly, there's really no excuse to "fat finger" your movements.

Oh man twitch laid into me once for "skipping" the other guys attack with his Redline at the Atlanta regional and then calling missed opportunity when we had worked down to PS 4.

Sorry dude, if you want to attack with your ship you should uh... Do that instead of nothing.

As for slight nudges, bumps, and I perfect placement, there's a little bit of drift in space.

The occasional sloppiness is to be expected and is fine, buuuut, the guy with the double ghosts did some other stuff at gencon and if I were the TO I would have DQ'd him long before this.

Hope to whatever deities there may or may not be that I never end up on a stream... I'll be lambasted

And this right here is what absolutely kills me about threads like this. Being featured on a stream or VOD match should be something fun - even something to be proud of. Maybe your list is super fun and you want to show it off... maybe you have a sweet repaint you did... maybe you made it to the top tables. These are all reason why being in a camera match should be awesome.

Sadly, the looming threat of having the armchair lynch mobs screaming "cheater!" or calling people sloppy / bad / suspicious can make players not want to be on camera, and that, frankly, sucks.

Posting a video link and saying "hey is this cheating or just people being sloppy?" does nothing that is actually useful. What it does do is give a a bunch of petty people a new outlet of the day where they can snipe at someone and put them down while hiding safely behind anonymity - all while extolling their own absolutely perfect dexterity / precision / tactical acumen.

If you see something on a video or in person that actually looks like cheating (remember: cheating requires intent) and not just "maybe, I can't really tell..." then try to get word to the TO that you think something is fishy. 99 times out of 100 if there's actually something amiss, the TO will already have their eye on the player in question and they will take any needed steps to ensure that the player(s) in question stop cheating or stop playing in events.

I don't know if FFG has anything equivalent to a DCI number for sanctioned events. If they do, then cheaters will very quickly find themselves banned from competitive play. If FFG doesn't yet use a system like that, then the player base is small enough that word of mouth should be enough to keep known cheaters away from high-level events, and local scenes are often very good at self-regulating.

But it can help catch cheaters. Yes people are dumb enough to cheat on camera.

There was a video which got posted from store championship season in my area, and buddy looked as though he changed his dial as his opponent was moving his ships.

A friend of a friend who does video editing and directing managed to zoom in and enhance and sure enough clear as day you can see him turn the dial with his thumb as he's holding it. I was told that eventually he sometime after this was brought to attention he apologized to the TO and his opponent, but no ban or anything which frankly I don't agree with

Yet in our regionals this past July a video was just posted of game 3 and I guess while playing a dengeraoo player rerolled his eyeballs with lone wolf, and neither one of the players playing realized this was wrong, and of coarse people started with their comments in the comment section. In this case his opponent didn't catch it, and was an honest mistake. I know myself I've caught myself rerolliing focuses. People make mistakes. Even real dumb ones like cheating on camera, making an honest mistake on camera would suck, because then you have people who think they are 100% perfect in everyway comment, but as I said your opponent must also be aware. It does require two people to play this game, and two people to make sure it's played within the rules.

Lesson

Don't cheat on camera, and if you make an honest mistake, don't worry about what the people in comments say. It's easy to pick apart someone else's mistakes

Personally, I'm pretty sloppy. I got some fat fingers and I'm always tapping things when trying to make moves.

I... WOULD... CUT...DAT-FAT-HAND!!!

KA-CHOPPAH!

I play this game with someone who is legally blind, and frankly I have a huge tolerance for bumping and nudging. It's a game, stop treating it as something else.

I play this game with someone who is legally blind, and frankly I have a huge tolerance for bumping and nudging. It's a game, stop treating it as something else.

That's how I feel about hockey. It's a bloody game, yet people treat it like some **** religion, and over pay people way to much to play a game that we use to play as kids

Why does it have to be either or? If you use the stock templates there's a different feel when placing them depending on whether the cutter side is up or down. This affects the "feel" if the template is fully seated or not. If this is a game of millimeters then the tools we work with should have sub-millimetric accuracy.

I often feel like I've got two left hands when I play (and I'm right-handed ).

The worst often happens when I try to be really precise. I'll spend 5 min to move the ship in front, do my move and put the other ship back... and just when I'm finished, I'll bump down another ship which was nowhere near the action...

No-one has really complain yet (also, I'm more than happy to let my opponent replace any ship I may have nudged, as he see fit)

Last tournament I was in, it was even better (worse?): my opponent kindly removed his ship for my move and, once I had moved, removed the template to clean up... forgetting its was marking his ship We both laugh about it, no harm done.

You want to see sloppy? Here you go!

Threads like this are ridiculous. What the OP fails to examine is if any of the "sneaky nudges" had an effect on the outcome of the turn. I can find no point in this video where a nudge add or subtracts a shot, prevents or creates a bump, or anything else relevant. Please someday try playing 6 games straight while eating garbage con food, then sleep in a noisy hotel, then play six more games and tell me how laser precise you are in the sixth one...

You're all amateurs. Just move the ships with the force and you'll have no issues.

But seriously, I am also in the "I hope I never get on a stream" camp. I've knocked ships over like dominoes before due to my sloppy hands. I feel awful especially when I have no clue where things were beforehand. Some terrible knock of ships happens I would say at least once a game with me. But just because I am terribly, awfully, unacceptably clumsy, doesn't mean I should stop playing a game I love. I hope and pray my opponents are as forgiving as I try to be to them, because if they aren't, I would never be let in to the store.

I often feel like I've got two left hands when I play (and I'm right-handed ).

The worst often happens when I try to be really precise. I'll spend 5 min to move the ship in front, do my move and put the other ship back... and just when I'm finished, I'll bump down another ship which was nowhere near the action...

No-one has really complain yet (also, I'm more than happy to let my opponent replace any ship I may have nudged, as he see fit)

Last tournament I was in, it was even better (worse?): my opponent kindly removed his ship for my move and, once I had moved, removed the template to clean up... forgetting its was marking his ship We both laugh about it, no harm done.

Headed to my second store tourney today. Hopefully I wont pull any boneheaded moves. My favorite worse move is moving an opponent's ship to complete my move and forgetting which ship I moved out of the way. My opponent wasn't watching either and didn't remember the board state. Had a good laugh about short term memory loss and being "cooters".