So can Kanan clear the stress from Inertial Dampeners (ID) on the same turn if the Full Stop is used?

Kanan: Once per round, after a friendly ship at Range 1-2 executes a white maneuver, you may remove 1 stress token from that ship.

ID: When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white [0] maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token.

Dash Rendar (36)
Push the Limit (3)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Kanan Jarrus (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Smuggling Compartment (0)
Outrider (5)

Total: 52

Huh, good question. It's different than Kanan/Falcon II title because both of those have the same "After executing..." wording/trigger. I'm not sure if, due to the difference in wording, this would be similar or if Kanan would interrupt ID instead between the two sentences.

I think that would not work. "Then receive..." indicates a next step, not a trigger. Hence, first you have a maneuver, after which you may use Kanan. Then you get the stress.

In case of Debris clouds, you get stress token AFTER the Check Pilot Stress step (which is a part of maneuver), hence is cleared with Kanan.

I think that would not work. "Then receive..." indicates a next step, not a trigger. Hence, first you have a maneuver, after which you may use Kanan. Then you get the stress.

In case of Debris clouds, you get stress token AFTER the Check Pilot Stress step (which is a part of maneuver), hence is cleared with Kanan.

Per FAQ:

I am not 100% sure on the timing of the stress given to you after the "white maneuvers" of Daredevil and Inertial Dampeners, but i would imagine if he clears a Debris stress he would clear those as well. Or for that matter, Lightning Reflexes.

Per FAQ:

Kanan’s ability triggers after the Clean Up substep of

the Execute Maneuver step.

If a friendly ship at Range 1–2 executes a white

maneuver and overlaps a debris cloud, Kanan’s ability

can remove the stress token gained from the debris

cloud.

I am not 100% sure on the timing of the stress given to you after the "white maneuvers" of Daredevil and Inertial Dampeners, but i would imagine if he clears a Debris stress he would clear those as well. Or for that matter, Lightning Reflexes.

That's kind of what I was thinking too that it would work given the FAQ for the debris cloud. But... but but but...

Per FAQ:

Kanan’s ability triggers after the Clean Up substep of

the Execute Maneuver step.

If a friendly ship at Range 1–2 executes a white

maneuver and overlaps a debris cloud, Kanan’s ability

can remove the stress token gained from the debris

cloud.

I am not 100% sure on the timing of the stress given to you after the "white maneuvers" of Daredevil and Inertial Dampeners, but i would imagine if he clears a Debris stress he would clear those as well. Or for that matter, Lightning Reflexes.

Lightning Reflexes is problematic, because its wording doesn't work in a post-TFA world. It triggers after the execution of a maneuver, but it says it applies its stress "after the Check Pilot Stress step". But that's part of the maneuver now, so it's already long past by the time you have the opportunity to trigger Lightning Reflexes. If they decide to errata Lightning Reflexes so that its entire activation happens before Check Pilot Stress, then yeah, Kanan would work on it. But I think it's clear that the intent of that stress timing was just to make sure we understood you couldn't do a green, pop LR, and then clear that stress. (Because in the old rules, Check Pilot Stress wasn't part of executing a maneuver.) So I think it's much more likely that, if they bother to errata LR at all, it'll be to remove the no-longer-needed reference to the Check Pilot Stress step.

As for the debris cloud thing: yeah, debris cloud stress arrives during Execute Maneuver, meaning before Kanan's timing window (at least in the current rules), so Kanan gets to clear it. The stress from Daredevil and Inertial Dampeners isn't arriving as part of the maneuver, though, so that's not relevant.

The entire question on Kanan with these two cards is this: If a card says "Do this thing. Then, do this other thing," is the second sentence a triggered event with a timing window of "after" the first event? If it is, then you can decide to resolve Daredevil's "Then, receive one stress token" before Kanan, so Kanan can clear the stress from Daredevil. If not, then you have to resolve all the things that trigger after performing a maneuver before moving on to the next sentence and gaining a stress.

I am convinced that the sequences described on cards are just like the sequences in the rules, and that you can't use timing shenanigans on them. If you think I'm wrong about that, what's the difference between the sequence described on Daredevil and the sequence described in "Activation Phase" in the Rules Reference? Why shouldn't I be able to say "Well, Perform Action happens after Execute Maneuver and that's also Kanan's timing window, so I can choose to trigger both and resolve Perform Action first. So I'll perform an action and then PtL or EI another action, then resolve Kanan and clear the stress." Try to imagine Super Dash performing two actions every turn, with his dial open, and not even carrying a stress into Combat to be Sliced.

In my opinion, this is how it works.

From the rules with Inertial dampeners and Kanan added:

1. Reveal Dial: Reveal the ship’s dial and take
the maneuver template that matches the chosen
maneuver.

- Discard ID here and do not take a maneuver template

2. Execute Maneuver: Resolve the following
substeps in order:
a. Move Ship: Slide the maneuver template
between the front guides of the ship’s base
so that it is flush against the base. Then pick
up the ship and place it at the opposite end
of the template, sliding the rear guides of the
base into the opposite end of the template.

- Don't move the ship. Add a stress token

b. Check Pilot Stress: If the maneuver is
red, assign one stress token to the ship; if
the maneuver is green, remove one stress
token from the ship.

- Do nothing, you already have stress.

c. Clean Up: Return the maneuver template
to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the
revealed dial outside the play area next to
the ship’s Ship card.

FAQ - Kanan’s ability triggers after the Clean Up substep of
the Execute Maneuver step.

- Kanan eats that stress token like cookie monster, nom nom nom

This may also answer the Daredevil interaction question.

Cheers

What makes you think you take the stress right in the middle of all that, instead of after you complete the manoeuvre?

...

2. Execute Maneuver: Resolve the following

substeps in order:

a. Move Ship: Slide the maneuver template

between the front guides of the ship’s base

so that it is flush against the base. Then pick

up the ship and place it at the opposite end

of the template, sliding the rear guides of the

base into the opposite end of the template.

- Don't move the ship. Add a stress token

...

It looks like you're reading Inertial Dampeners as though it reads: "When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white [(stop)0] maneuver. After the Move Ship substep, receive one stress token." It doesn't read like that. The "perform a [(stop)0] maneuver" part isn't over until you've gone all the way through Execute a Maneuver. You don't move on to the next thing ID tells you to do until you're done with Execute a Maneuver (and anything that triggers before, during, or after it).

What makes you think you take the stress right in the middle of all that, instead of after you complete the manoeuvre?

The reason Daredevil was errata'd to be a white maneuver followed by the assignment of a stress token is because in the old activation phase timing, Check Pilot Stress wasn't part of Execute Maneuver, so just calling the Daredevil turn red didn't result in giving a stress as was intended. Now it would. Same goes for Inertial Dampeners, with the additional benefit that the 0-stop being white prevents any arguments over whether you're allowed to use them when you're already stressed.

So if we agree that:

Inertial Dampeners causes a stress token to be given after the completion of all of the Execute Maneuver steps (Move, Check Pilot Stress, Clean Up) meaning it happens immediately after the Clean Up sub-step and before the Perform Action step
Kanan triggers after the Clean Up sub-step as per the current FAQ, meaning it triggers before the Perform Action step

Would it, by logic, suggest that since these two events occur at the same time (post Clean up, pre Perform Action) that the controlling player then could decide which happens first? Meaning then, if we agree on the action timing, that the stress token can be dropped, then Kanan can cancel said stress token as a white maneuver had been performed?

Would it, by logic, suggest that since these two events occur at the same time (post Clean up, pre Perform Action) that the controlling player then could decide which happens first? Meaning then, if we agree on the action timing, that the stress token can be dropped, then Kanan can cancel said stress token as a white maneuver had been performed?

It's not, though. It's not a triggered event with a timing window, it's just the next thing you do. You can't switch the order around any more than you can say "Perform Action comes after Execute Maneuver, so I'm going to perform my action and then PtL another one, then have Kanan eat the resulting stress because my maneuver way back when was white."

...

2. Execute Maneuver: Resolve the following

substeps in order:

a. Move Ship: Slide the maneuver template

between the front guides of the ship’s base

so that it is flush against the base. Then pick

up the ship and place it at the opposite end

of the template, sliding the rear guides of the

base into the opposite end of the template.

- Don't move the ship. Add a stress token

...

It looks like you're reading Inertial Dampeners as though it reads: "When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white [(stop)0] maneuver. After the Move Ship substep, receive one stress token." It doesn't read like that. The "perform a [(stop)0] maneuver" part isn't over until you've gone all the way through Execute a Maneuver. You don't move on to the next thing ID tells you to do until you're done with Execute a Maneuver (and anything that triggers before, during, or after it).

What makes you think you take the stress right in the middle of all that, instead of after you complete the manoeuvre?

Exactly. If Daredevil and Inertial Dampeners directed you to perform a red maneuver (like Daredevil originally did) instead of a white one, and if Kanan could trigger off red maneuvers, then this would clearly work, because a red maneuver's stress (under the current activation phase timing) arrives during Execute Maneuver, so by the time Kanan triggers it's there for him to remove.

The reason Daredevil was errata'd to be a white maneuver followed by the assignment of a stress token is because in the old activation phase timing, Check Pilot Stress wasn't part of Execute Maneuver, so just calling the Daredevil turn red didn't result in giving a stress as was intended. Now it would. Same goes for Inertial Dampeners, with the additional benefit that the 0-stop being white prevents any arguments over whether you're allowed to use them when you're already stressed.

After rereading, I agree that my timing breakdown was incorrect. Thank you for pointing that out.

Doesn't ID technically resolve when you reveal your maneuver dial?

"ID: When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white [0] maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token."

If so then Kanan would interrupt ID after the clean up step and before assigning the stress token.

It triggers on the dial reveal and allows the change of manoeuvre to a stop. Then after the manoeuvre is completed, it resolves fully by applying the stress token.

I think that would not work. "Then receive..." indicates a next step, not a trigger. Hence, first you have a maneuver, after which you may use Kanan. Then you get the stress.

In case of Debris clouds, you get stress token AFTER the Check Pilot Stress step (which is a part of maneuver), hence is cleared with Kanan.

I have a rules question in about Kanan + Daredevil, which if it's ever answered should serve as precedent for this case too. In the meantime I'm in the "sequences are not timing triggers" camp with you.

It'd be 100% cleaner if they just reverted to pre-FAQ Daredevil.

The white+stress is just weird >_>

I should stop reading about this, but something was nagging me about it.

Parravon reminded me that ID resolves when we take that stress. We take that stress after the performing the white maneuver. This is the same time that Kanan resolves.

From "Da Rules"

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the
player with initiative chooses which of his abilities
to resolve and resolves them in the order of his
choosing . Then the opposing player does the
same for his own abilities.

So it would appear that, in this case, when the abilities are triggered is not the deciding factor, but rather when the abilities resolve. Though taking the stress token is not a triggered event, ID resolves at the same time as Kanan, Therefore, the argument that one could use Kanan to clear that stress holds water.

I have a headache now.

I should stop reading about this, but something was nagging me about it.

Parravon reminded me that ID resolves when we take that stress. We take that stress after the performing the white maneuver. This is the same time that Kanan resolves.

From "Da Rules"

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the

player with initiative chooses which of his abilities

to resolve and resolves them in the order of his

choosing. Then the opposing player does the

same for his own abilities.

So it would appear that, in this case, when the abilities are triggered is not the deciding factor, but rather when the abilities resolve. Though taking the stress token is not a triggered event, ID resolves at the same time as Kanan, Therefore, the argument that one could use Kanan to clear that stress holds water.

I have a headache now.

Have we gotten any resolution to this?

FFG replied to a couple of rules questions.

The gist of the responses was that in a card that is word like "perform a maneuver, then do a thing" any effects that trigger after executing a maneuver happen between "perform a maneuver" and "then do a thing".

That was helpful, thank you

So it's basically not clear?

It seems intuitively that Kanan can clear the stress from ID.

So it's basically not clear?

It seems intuitively that Kanan can clear the stress from ID.

Why would it be intuitive? The stress from ID doesn't result from executing a maneuver.

Kanan clears stress after executing white maneuver.

The stress comes after taking the white maneuver.

So the 'then take a stress' happens same time as Kanan 'after executing white maneuver'

Or at least it's not very clear when exactly the 'then take a stress' from ID happens.

Kanan clears stress after executing white maneuver.

The stress comes after taking the white maneuver.

So the 'then take a stress' happens same time as Kanan 'after executing white maneuver'

Or at least it's not very clear when exactly the 'then take a stress' from ID happens.

I can see that. I think that the important thing to keep in mind when looking at this is that "do thing 1, then do thing 2" is not the same timing as "after doing thing 1, do thing 2". If "after" and "then" are equivalent terms to you then the way Kanan interacts with some card will seem counter-intuitive.

Kanan clears stress after executing white maneuver.

The stress comes after taking the white maneuver.

So the 'then take a stress' happens same time as Kanan 'after executing white maneuver'

Or at least it's not very clear when exactly the 'then take a stress' from ID happens.

So your problem is equating the next step in the process as being the same as a trigger from another upgrade card. Kanan triggers after executing a white maneuver. If you take the stress token, you are no longer "After executing a white maneuver." You would need an "After receiving a stress token" trigger. The ONLY time you can choose the order to trigger of upgrades is if two upgrades have the same trigger. In the case of Daredevil/ID, there is only a single upgrade being triggered after the white maneuver: Kanan.

This is also why Kanan DOES work with the new Millennium Falcon title. Both the title and Kanan trigger after executing a maneuver, and receiving the stress is contained inside of the title's execution. Kanan isn't interrupting the Falcon title itself.