On page 16 of the rules, it states that stealth is declared against the original target in case of a title Supporter jumping in to help. I assume this is occuring in the Player Action Window just after the attacking player declares stealth and the defender is supposed to kneel defenders, the latter action not occuring hence the Supporter jumps in to defend instead.

Is the exact same principle applicable to redirects with the Crown Regent and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? The rules don't explicitly state it but I am guessing its the same?

Hurdoc said:

I may be getting caught up in your terminology here, but this isn't actually the way it happens. To make sure that everyone is one the same page, I'm going to outline a challenge here. I apologize if this is stuff you already know. All challenges go through the following sequence:

1. Game Effect: Active/Attacking player announces the type of challenge and declares/kneels attackers

2. Players take turns using Player Actions starting with the First Player (note: even if the First Player is not the current active player)

3. Game Effect: The Attacking Player assigns stealth targets (if applicable), then the defending player declares/kneels defenders

4. Players take turns using Player Actions starting with the First Player (note: even if the First Player is not the current active player)

5. Game Effect: Resolve the challenge by a) counting/comparing challenge STR, b) settling claim if the attacker wins, c) awarding unopposed bonus (if applicable) and d) awarding Renown (if applicable)

Now, your principle for Supporting defenders would have those extra defenders joining the challenge in #4, and not happening until the Supporting player's turn to take an action. That isn't what actually happens - which makes sense when consider that 3 other people may have taken player actions before the Supporting player would get a chance to support. Instead, the supporting rules actually extend the Game Effect action for how defenders are declared. If the original defender decides not to declare defenders in #3 above, the Supporting player can immediately declare defenders of their own. The Supporting defenders end up being declared at exactly the same time that the original defender would have declared his/her own. But attacking player doesn't get the chance to declare stealth against the Supporting player because the opportunity to declare stealth has already passed (before the decision to commit Supporting defenders was made).

The end result is pretty much the same as your idea that the Supporting defenders are declared in the Player Action window. The practical consideration, though, is that no one will have a chance to trigger anything between the original defender saying "no defenders" and the supporting player saying "then my guys step in."

The most important distinction here, I think, is that the challenge isn't actually "redirected." If the Supporting player's defending characters lose the challenge, the "original" defender is responsible for claim. That is not the case for either of the redirect titles.

Hurdoc said:

The redirect titles are both different.

In the case of Crown Regent, the difference is one of timing. Crown Regent redirects the challenge immediately after attackers are declared. That means Crown Regent is used as a Response in #1 above. So the new defending player is also chosen in #1, who is now considered the defending player by the time you get to assigning stealth in #3. So in a challenge redirected by Crown Regent, the attacker gets to assign stealth against the player who is actually defending in the challenge.

In the case of Lord Commander, things are a little trickier. The details are outlined in the FAQ (under the "support" section of the product page). It is played as a cancel Response in #3 above. By canceling the declaration of (no) defenders by the original defending player and becoming the new defending player, the challenge sequence jumps backwards and reopens #2. So since the challenge sequence goes back to #2, #3 starts all over again and the attacking player has the opportunity to declare stealth again. So in a challenge redirected by Lord Commander, the attacker gets to (re)assign stealth against the person holding the Lord Commander title.

So you see, because of the timing (Crown Regent) and the differences between a redirected challenge (Lord Commander) and a supported challenge (Support rules), the implications for the attacking player's assignment of stealth is different in all three cases.

Are you a teacher by trade? Your answers consistently amaze me, not only because they resolve the questions, but also because they explain the underlying mechanics in such a way that people don't have to pester you with more questions!

Hurdoc said:

No joke. Did you know that somebody built a virtual "temple" to the wisdom of ktom? I don't think it's still maintained (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody!), but I ran across it at www.ktome.com .

Where there are doubts about some mechanic of the game, we don´t ask "what´s on the f.a.q?" but "has ktom said something about it?"

Hurdoc said:

Totally agree.

Thanks for all the appreciation, guys.

I try to outline my reasoning for the answers I come up with so that people can judge for themselves. I have been known to be wrong, after all.