I'd love to see another hero version of Elladan and Elrohir (without abilities explicitly tied to each other), just because it would open up deckbuilding with the existing two heroes.

I would love to see cards that make these heroes more playable. I think we would've seen them already if they were being planned though. Weren't they at helms deep? Did they come with Aragorn after helms deep? I can't remember.

If they do release allies I would hope they have a search and find effect like Fili and Kili.

To be clear, I'm not particularly expecting Elladan/Elrohir allies in the final saga expansion, and certainly not new hero versions. They came with the Grey Company, bear counsel from Elrond, and help out with healing in Minas Tirith, but aren't really major characters. But I would like to see new versions of Elladan/Elrohir in both ally and hero form, to make the current Elladan and Elrohir not so joined at the hip.

For that reason, I wouldn't really want to see a Kili/Fili effect for the ally versions, since it would be a wasted effect for a Elladan ally in an Elrohir hero deck. I would like to see some sort of ability that keys on the other being active, so that the ally versions have synergy with each other as well with the hero versions.

I don't know...I think Crossing Gorgoroth would fall flat for many of the same reasons as Mount Doom as a standalone quest, not to mention what events really happened that would make Gorgoroth stand out on its own? It was nothing but the purest of pure travel.

Falling in with a band of orcs is a hard thing to forget.

It is, and it will be interesting to see how the quest deals with that. Besides the orc troop they travelled with, they were actively being shadowed by Gollum and had a near encounter with a warrior/tracker combo specifically looking for them. There's no shortage of potential enemies on the plains of Gorgoroth, and a particular problem faced by Sam and Frodo was that the roads that made it much, much easier to travel, were much, much more likely to have enemies on them.

I don't know...I think Crossing Gorgoroth would fall flat for many of the same reasons as Mount Doom as a standalone quest, not to mention what events really happened that would make Gorgoroth stand out on its own? It was nothing but the purest of pure travel.

Falling in with a band of orcs is a hard thing to forget.

It is, and it will be interesting to see how the quest deals with that. Besides the orc troop they travelled with, they were actively being shadowed by Gollum and had a near encounter with a warrior/tracker combo specifically looking for them. There's no shortage of potential enemies on the plains of Gorgoroth, and a particular problem faced by Sam and Frodo was that the roads that made it much, much easier to travel, were much, much more likely to have enemies on them.

Ok, so there were a bunch of potential encounters. They almost ran into the trackers. They were nearly found out by the orc troop. However, actual combat did not occur, and furthermore, would have been disastrous if it had occurred! When reading the story, it's not that it's tense because getting caught will be more dangerous; rather, it's tense because getting caught means utter failure! Will we force only secrecy decks to play this quest? Or will we simply suspend every last shred of disbelief and assume that starting a massive battle just down the road from Barad-dur, with the Ring in hand, won't doom all of Middle Earth to darkness?

I know the natural response to this is that the entire game is full of changes from the books (hence why we can even select different heroes/decks in the first place), but I feel this would be a change on a much larger scale. It's one thing to say that a different fellowship set out from Rivendell, or that the party escaped Moria before the Balrog showed up, or that a legion of dwarves helped defend the Hornburg. These are all deviations from the books, but they all fit within the overall feel of the story (even something like Thorin and Balin helping out could fit within some sort of alternate timeline). Fighting one's way across Gorgoroth, however, does not, in my opinion, fit with the feel of the story. The whole reason the fellowship was formed was because the blood of Numenor was spent and the elves were waning! A Last Alliance-esque fight into Mordor was simply not an option. Otherwise, what was the point in even going to the Black Gate? Why not simply charge through Minas Morgul and catch up to Frodo and Sam, sweeping all enemies before them?

From a narrative standpoint, the crossing of Gorgoroth was certainly not boring. However, it was exciting, not because of what happened, but because of what almost happened; because of what didn't happen. This works in a book, but I don't really see how it could be translated into gameplay without either vastly changing the nature of game or doing irreparable harm to the narrative.

JJ48 - large scare changes just now bother you? What about all that combat in the Dead Marshes that didn't happen, or the combat along the Paths of the Dead that didn't happen, or the fighting of Black Riders in the Shire that didn't happen? This game has multiple aspects and quests have to be designed to include them all as a matter of pure gameplay. If that departs from the book, then so be it, but don't pretend like Gorgoroth is the first time it's happened

I think Sam and Frodo alone absolutely, positively constitute a secrecy deck. Is that the only possible approach that could have worked? Possibly not. If the two had engaged the tracker and Uruk and slain both (not a certain outcome), the end result would have been two dead orcs off-road, instead of one dead orc and one deserted orc. I doubt this would've made any appreciable difference to Barad-Dur.

Remember, Frodo was actually caught by the enemy, and intelligence concerning him and the shortish "great elf warrior" was taken to Sauron, and including a *very* valuable artifact. As the Mouth of Sauron showed, they *knew* there were spies lose in Mordor, and they *suspected* those spies were personally known to the captains of the invading host and their mission was of great importance to the captains. The spies were hunted, it just wasn't a huge priority, because as long as Sauron recovered the ring from this upstart Aragorn and his pitiful army it didn't really matter what the spies saw or did. It never entered Sauron's head that the spies could actually do anything to really harm him, let alone destroy him.

"Fighting" across Gorgoroth would involve encounters with small groups of orcs, not the mighty armies that were assembled to oppose the armies of the west. Before Frodo left, Aragorn came to the conclusion that the group going should be Frodo, himself, Gimli, Sam, and possibly Legolas. That group would be no secrecy deck, but would still certainly try to sneak across Gorgoroth rather than fight their way across -- though they would do better against any enemies they did encounter. A tracker/warrior orc pair would present less of a threat to the three hunters than to two frightened hobbits.

At any rate, we've already seen the Frodo part of the fellowship do a "just travel" quest across the dead marshes, and the risk of self-drowning was turned into actual undead enemies. Surely using enemies that we know existed and even saw in action in Gorgoroth is at least as thematic.

JJ48 - large scare changes just now bother you? What about all that combat in the Dead Marshes that didn't happen, or the combat along the Paths of the Dead that didn't happen, or the fighting of Black Riders in the Shire that didn't happen? This game has multiple aspects and quests have to be designed to include them all as a matter of pure gameplay. If that departs from the book, then so be it, but don't pretend like Gorgoroth is the first time it's happened

Please re-read my post. The point is that most of the changes so far have been things which could have happened, or at least which wouldn't feel completely out of place happening. Fighting through Gorgoroth isn't just different from the book, nor is it simply unlikely. It's the complete opposite, not just of what happened, but of the fundamental premise for building a fellowship to begin with!

If the enemies have suitably high engagement levels, then it's perfectly within reason.

I don't know...I think Crossing Gorgoroth would fall flat for many of the same reasons as Mount Doom as a standalone quest, not to mention what events really happened that would make Gorgoroth stand out on its own? It was nothing but the purest of pure travel.

Falling in with a band of orcs is a hard thing to forget.

It is, and it will be interesting to see how the quest deals with that. Besides the orc troop they travelled with, they were actively being shadowed by Gollum and had a near encounter with a warrior/tracker combo specifically looking for them. There's no shortage of potential enemies on the plains of Gorgoroth, and a particular problem faced by Sam and Frodo was that the roads that made it much, much easier to travel, were much, much more likely to have enemies on them.

Ok, so there were a bunch of potential encounters. They almost ran into the trackers. They were nearly found out by the orc troop. However, actual combat did not occur, and furthermore, would have been disastrous if it had occurred! When reading the story, it's not that it's tense because getting caught will be more dangerous; rather, it's tense because getting caught means utter failure! Will we force only secrecy decks to play this quest? Or will we simply suspend every last shred of disbelief and assume that starting a massive battle just down the road from Barad-dur, with the Ring in hand, won't doom all of Middle Earth to darkness?

I know the natural response to this is that the entire game is full of changes from the books (hence why we can even select different heroes/decks in the first place), but I feel this would be a change on a much larger scale. It's one thing to say that a different fellowship set out from Rivendell, or that the party escaped Moria before the Balrog showed up, or that a legion of dwarves helped defend the Hornburg. These are all deviations from the books, but they all fit within the overall feel of the story (even something like Thorin and Balin helping out could fit within some sort of alternate timeline). Fighting one's way across Gorgoroth, however, does not, in my opinion, fit with the feel of the story. The whole reason the fellowship was formed was because the blood of Numenor was spent and the elves were waning! A Last Alliance-esque fight into Mordor was simply not an option. Otherwise, what was the point in even going to the Black Gate? Why not simply charge through Minas Morgul and catch up to Frodo and Sam, sweeping all enemies before them?

From a narrative standpoint, the crossing of Gorgoroth was certainly not boring. However, it was exciting, not because of what happened, but because of what almost happened; because of what didn't happen. This works in a book, but I don't really see how it could be translated into gameplay without either vastly changing the nature of game or doing irreparable harm to the narrative.

Here's how I'd approach it at least: 2 saga heroes: Frodo and Sam use one staging area, all other heroes use another. The goal is to keep Frodo and Sam from being caught by keeping enemies out of their staging area (optional engagement, card effects, etc). At the end of any turn if any enemies are in their staging area, all players are eliminated. It preserves the macro-feint tactic and allows gameplay which mirrors the books as closely as possible in this format. The ringbearer has the option of fighting, but if they can't silence the enemies in one round, they're position is given away.

Here's how I'd approach it at least: 2 saga heroes: Frodo and Sam use one staging area, all other heroes use another. The goal is to keep Frodo and Sam from being caught by keeping enemies out of their staging area (optional engagement, card effects, etc). At the end of any turn if any enemies are in their staging area, all players are eliminated. It preserves the macro-feint tactic and allows gameplay which mirrors the books as closely as possible in this format. The ringbearer has the option of fighting, but if they can't silence the enemies in one round, they're position is given away.

That sounds about right (or possibly 1 saga hero + 1 of your other heroes). I'd say we could combine that and Mount Doom with the Black Gate for a good, epic experience. Initially, it would be the Captains of the West struggling to keep orcs from spilling over to Frodo's group, and then towards the end it would be Frodo's group struggling to beat Gollum and destroy the Ring before the captains are defeated!

#1 you really *need* to have Sam as the ringbearer and Frodo as the objective. We did make it successfully past Shelob in Land of Shadow -- but then, Sam and Frodo also thought they had made it past Shelob before Frodo was struck down.

I'd love a Sam ringbearer, but I feel like we'd need a Frodo ringbearer in the box then too. And maybe a Fellowship Aragorn as well? I don't know how many Fellowship heroes they'll actually want to include in the box, since they can't be used outside of the Saga quests.

I personally think it's more likely we'll see a Burden or Objective card in the first quest that grants a hero the Ring-bearer trait. I'd love it if it changed the hero's sphere to Fellowship and then you could use it to go back and start with any hero being the ring-bearer, not just Frodo, although that might be a game-balancing nightmare. There would be a certain poetry in having the two "regular" heroes in the last box being Frodo and Sam, though.

JJ48, I suggest remembering the Black Riders quests. Which are awesome.

In the books, Frodo & company do not fail any Hide tests. Nor is it plausible that Sam, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin would defeat a Black Rider they met on the road. But pretty sure that happened in some peoples' games.

They can make this work, there is plenty of material and they have hit home runs with chapters that had less to go on.

I'm thinking the final quest will be Black gate and Mount Doom, with mount Doom taking place in a seperate staging area and being affected by time counters being placed by the heroes at the black gate.

What I would like is some Orc disguise objective which help you to sneak past the orcs...or even questing as objective allies!

Last quest: Black gate, a quest card with x time counters. When time gets 0 points, players win the game. While, a lot of enemies enter play (0 locations in encounter deck, all enemies -or treacheries-).

Nope, the last quest will be Sam fighting other hobbits to impress the hobbit barmaid he later marries. It will be light and fun.

Multi Sphere Hero Gandalf the White. It has to happen. I've always wanted to play with Gandalf the White and Thranduil. It's a shame that none of them got relased to this day :C

And quests: Battle at the Gate, Destruction of the Ring and Scourging of Shire. Pretty straightforward.

Box Name: There and Back Again

Scenario:

1. The Tower of Cirith Ungol

2. Mount Doom

3. The Scouring of the Shire

Hero:

1. Sam (Fellowship)

2. ...

3. ...

Box Name: There and Back Again

Scenario:

1. The Tower of Cirith Ungol

2. Mount Doom

3. The Scouring of the Shire

Hero:

1. Sam (Fellowship)

2. ...

3. ...