Turn counter incoming!

Turn counter incoming!

More likely an objective that you just put resource tokens on.

S P I R I T A R A G O R N.... PLEAAAAAAAAAASE!!!!!!!!

Reminder that in the books Sam was perfectly willing to let the Ring go to the Enemy when Frodo died because it's a servant's place to die at the feet of his master.

He only didn't go through with it because he realised Frodo wasn't actually dead.

Wake me up when we have ally Elladan and Elrohir.

Ally Elladan and Elrohir would be great.

The description of Sam's choices is a bit uncharitable. He actually made the decision to abandon Frodo and bear the ring to the doom before returning to die with the body, but reversed himself when he heard the Orcs discovering the body. His intent in returning was to *attack* the Orcs and recover the body -- being a realistic sort, he figured that even invisible they would get him in the end and the ring would be lost, but that was the probable outcome, not his actual goal. His goal was to recover Frodo.

Nor did his priorities change when he discovered Frodo wasn't actually dead. The goal, as before, was to recover Frodo, even if (like before) the probable outcome was the end of everything. He had the presence of mind not to wear the ring in Mordor, and the strength of will to avoid claiming the ring. After recovering Frodo it was he who provided both the planning and drive to get them to the Crack of Doom. And he was the only person in the history of the Middle Earth to ever give the ring away, knowing what it was.

It took a miracle for the choices of Master Samwise to result in Frodo's rescue instead of loss of the ring -- but a miracle was what Gandalf had hoped for the whole time. Consider that Gandalf allowed and approved Frodo to carry the ring from the Shire to Mordor with the burden and attachment to it growing with each step -- yet Gandalf knew at the very beginning that Frodo did not have the strength of will to even cast the ring into his own harmless fireplace, and that Gandalf could not make him do so without breaking his mind! A fool's hope was all there was, a hopeless journey. The benevolent hand of fate was working overtime for Frodo and Sam on that journey.

If Sam had abandoned Frodo, it seems likely to me that knowledge of Frodo's possession of the room would have been forced from him, and Sam would have no chance of reaching Sammath Naur against a forewarned Sauron. In letting his heart overrule his head, he took the only path that actually would have preserved the quest.

Sam Gamgee, the true hero of the trilogy.

i predict Sam Gamgee will be the ringbearer of the last box

I've been thinking that all along...there has to be a non-frodo ring bearer given how all the cards reference the trait, not frodo, the way the hobbit sagas just referenced Bilbo by name.

And Sam was briefly the ring bearer during Return of the King, so it definitely fits. Maybe we'll get 2 ring bearers, a new frodo, and a Sam?

and this brief period can turn itself into a quest idea, where Sam is searching for Frodo, then protecting him...

Frodo - Lore
Éomer- Leadership
Sam - Fellowship

I wonder how they're going to handle the Battle of the Black Gate. Will it be its own quest, or will it be combined with Mount Doom? Both options have potential problems.

If Morannon is a distinct quest (either before or after the Mount Doom quest), then it hurts the continuity that the developers have been emphasizing in campaign mode, where a saga box generally follows the same group of heroes. The desire to preserve that continuity was likely a significant factor in why the designers chose the battle with corsairs as the second quest in The Flame of the West, even though (as the announcement article mentions) that "never played out on the foreground of The Return of the King." They might also have to include an extra Fellowship Aragorn, since all saga quests have fellowship heroes, Frodo wouldn't fit, and they don't assume players have earlier saga expansions (except for campaign mode). It would be interesting to have Mount Doom (likely including Gorgoroth) as the second quest, and the longer it takes to destroy the Ring, the longer players have to survive in the third quest (the battle of Morannon). This would feel like an anti-climactic conclusion, though. Also, any such arrangement would need to work well when the quests are played individually, while ideally feeling closely connected in campaign mode.

If, on the other hand, the battle of Morannon and Mont Doom are combined in one quest, there are a few complications. Perhaps something like Flies and Spiders would work, with one staging area for the Ringbearer and another for all the other players, maybe using two different encounter decks. However, the quest needs to be playable in true solo, so there needs to be an option to deal with either the battle or Mount Doom in an abstracted way. Flies and Spiders worked well in solo because the first player was doing the most interesting stuff, while the other players were treading water until the first player rejoined them. (Breaking of the Fellowship tweaked this formula: it worked decently well in solo, but was better with more than one player, where the other players could support the first player.) If the quest is designed so that the focus is on the Ringbearer in true solo, many players would be disappointed if the epic battle is abstracted.

They could also try something like Dungeons Deep and Caverns Dim, with the Ringbearer in a separate area (like the Riddle area, and perhaps immune to player card effects), and some encounter cards that give players a choice: either make the battle more difficult, or do something (perhaps some form of test) that risks damaging the Ringbearer but can make progress towards destroying the Ring. If the designers choose this option, I would want them to allow players to switch heroes before this quest. Perhaps in campaign mode the first player would control Fellowship Aragorn (and technically also control the Ringbearer, but the Ringbearer's in his own area with special rules). This option would disrupt the continuity between saga quests a bit, since it wouldn't include a role for the heroes that have been supporting the Ringbearer (unless you teleport them to participate in the battle of Morannon), but it seems like a decent compromise.

I like this last option, since the game does a better job of modelling an external struggle (like the battle of Morannon) than an internal struggle--which Frodo ultimately lost. Tolkien wrote about Frodo's failure in letter 192:

And surely it is a more significant and real event than a mere 'fairy-story' ending in which the hero is indomitable? ... In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. Gandalf certainly foresaw this. [a reference to when he says to Frodo: "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."]

...

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).

It's tricky to try to recreate some of Tolkien's central themes in game form, since a cooperative game often becomes a challenging puzzle to solve. There can be moments of eucatastrophe, like revealing Eagle of the Misty Mountain when the situation seems hopeless in The Battle of Five Armies, but those tend to be exceptions. If the designers manage to design this quest (or these quests) so that Aragorn and companions can make life easier for the Rinbearer by making it more difficult for themselves, I'll be pretty happy. If they can somehow reflect that destroying the Ring is not simply a question of willpower or power gaming, that would be wonderful.

I would love to see a Sam Ring-bearer. They have left the design space open. However, I don't know if they have really left space open for themselves in the format of the boxes. A Sam Ring-bearer in this box would mean that players picking up only this box and the Core Set would have no Frodo Ring-bearer. I think we'll either see both a Sam and a Frodo Ring-bearer in the last box (2 fellowship heroes), or only Frodo.

I would love to see a Sam Ring-bearer. They have left the design space open. However, I don't know if they have really left space open for themselves in the format of the boxes. A Sam Ring-bearer in this box would mean that players picking up only this box and the Core Set would have no Frodo Ring-bearer. I think we'll either see both a Sam and a Frodo Ring-bearer in the last box (2 fellowship heroes), or only Frodo.

They could give us a two sided ring bearer with Frodo on one side and Sam on the other....

I haven't read the Return of the King for like 8 years now, and I don't remember everything (and I just don't envoy the movies - sorry :/) but why Eomer?

We just dont have a spirit version of Eomer. We got a Tactics Theoden and Spirit Theoden, so why not add a spirit Eomer for Spirit Rohan?

also no Spirit Aragorn yet. i could see a Spirite Eomer, but here are my predictions:

Fellowship Sam Gamgee

Spirit Aragorn

Leadership Eomer

The three above + Ally Elladan and Elrohir is my guess and wish for this box

So happy that so many others want new versions of Elrohir and Elladan as well. Even if the designers weren't planning on including them perhaps they will now that they can see how many people want new versions
then again we still don't have thranduil!!

So happy that so many others want new versions of Elrohir and Elladan as well. Even if the designers weren't planning on including them perhaps they will now that they can see how many people want new versions

then again we still don't have thranduil!!

That's true and I would love to see him as a hero in the near future but I don't think it will be in the Saga Box because that's not the right place storywise to put him. Maybe he will be the hero of a normal adventure pack in the upcoming Harad cycle (probably the 6th pack where most of the prominent heroes have come out in the last cycles).

Ally Celeborn is another big omission that will hopefully appear in a hero Thranduil box in the future.

Ally Celeborn is another big omission that will hopefully appear in a hero Thranduil box in the future.

Didn't realise how badly I wanted ally Celeborn until this post...

I use x3 Galadriel ally in my decks and would love to run Celeborn alongside her..

So happy that so many others want new versions of Elrohir and Elladan as well. Even if the designers weren't planning on including them perhaps they will now that they can see how many people want new versions

then again we still don't have thranduil!!

That's true and I would love to see him as a hero in the near future but I don't think it will be in the Saga Box because that's not the right place storywise to put him. Maybe he will be the hero of a normal adventure pack in the upcoming Harad cycle (probably the 6th pack where most of the prominent heroes have come out in the last cycles).

yeah he wouldn't make sense in the Saga box at all. I hope he is in the Harad Deluxe box

I'd love to see another hero version of Elladan and Elrohir (without abilities explicitly tied to each other), just because it would open up deckbuilding with the existing two heroes.

I would love to see a Sam Ring-bearer. They have left the design space open. However, I don't know if they have really left space open for themselves in the format of the boxes. A Sam Ring-bearer in this box would mean that players picking up only this box and the Core Set would have no Frodo Ring-bearer. I think we'll either see both a Sam and a Frodo Ring-bearer in the last box (2 fellowship heroes), or only Frodo.

From the Black Riders rulebook:

The Lord of the Rings: The Black Riders features Frodo Baggins, a hero who belongs to the Fellowship sphere. This new version of Frodo Baggins is the only hero with the Ring-bearer trait included in this box. Future Saga Expansions may include different heroes with the Ring-bearer trait, but for now the players must use Frodo Baggins when playing the scenarios in The Lord of the Rings Saga Expansions.

It looks like it was their intention from the start to include other ring-bearers, and Sam for the Cirith Ungol quest seems like the only logical choice.

I think the destruction of the Ring almost has to be combined with another quest (Battle at the Black Gate makes most sense, I think). Otherwise, what would you even be doing during the quest? The only enemy to fight is Gollum, so would the entire rest of the quest just be exploring locations and avoiding treacheries representing corruption by the ring? Combining it with the Black Gate would fit because that was the entire point of the battle! It wasn't "we need to hold off until Frodo destroys the Ring" (it would have made more sense to stay in Gondor if they'd wanted to do that). Rather, by challenging Sauron directly, they forced him to empty Mordor and give Frodo a clear path to Mount Doom. This could be represented by the Ring-bearer having his own separate stages which get more difficult based on how many enemies are in the main party's staging area.

Not to mention, if we combine the two then we'll have room for the epic climax of the entire trilogy: the Scouring of the Shire!

Not to mention, if we combine the two then we'll have room for the epic climax of the entire trilogy: the Scouring of the Shire!

... at think that will be a stand-alone, kind of gencon type of quest. There is something anti-climatic about doing gutter-alley politics in back-country after destroying The One Ring in the Land of the Ennemy, especially from the point of view of the mechanic of this game.

Not to mention, if we combine the two then we'll have room for the epic climax of the entire trilogy: the Scouring of the Shire!

... at think that will be a stand-alone, kind of gencon type of quest. There is something anti-climatic about doing gutter-alley politics in back-country after destroying The One Ring in the Land of the Ennemy, especially from the point of view of the mechanic of this game.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

I love the Scouring of the Shire, but it is more of a denouement than a climax. So my guess for quests would be:

1) Rescuing Frodo from Cirith Ungol (Sam as ringbearer)

2) Crossing Gorgoroth

3) Combined Morannan/Mount Doom

#1 you really *need* to have Sam as the ringbearer and Frodo as the objective. We did make it successfully past Shelob in Land of Shadow -- but then, Sam and Frodo also thought they had made it past Shelob before Frodo was struck down.

I really really want Scouring of the Shire as a print-on-demand quest, though.

I love the Scouring of the Shire, but it is more of a denouement than a climax. So my guess for quests would be:

1) Rescuing Frodo from Cirith Ungol (Sam as ringbearer)

2) Crossing Gorgoroth

3) Combined Morannan/Mount Doom

#1 you really *need* to have Sam as the ringbearer and Frodo as the objective. We did make it successfully past Shelob in Land of Shadow -- but then, Sam and Frodo also thought they had made it past Shelob before Frodo was struck down.

I really really want Scouring of the Shire as a print-on-demand quest, though.

I don't know...I think Crossing Gorgoroth would fall flat for many of the same reasons as Mount Doom as a standalone quest, not to mention what events really happened that would make Gorgoroth stand out on its own? It was nothing but the purest of pure travel. To me, it would be like if the first Hobbit saga box had started with the troll quest, then had an entirely separate quest devoted just to traveling from the trolls' cave to Rivendell.

I'd love to see another hero version of Elladan and Elrohir (without abilities explicitly tied to each other), just because it would open up deckbuilding with the existing two heroes.

I would love to see cards that make these heroes more playable. I think we would've seen them already if they were being planned though. Weren't they at helms deep? Did they come with Aragorn after helms deep? I can't remember.

If they do release allies I would hope they have a search and find effect like Fili and Kili.

I don't know...I think Crossing Gorgoroth would fall flat for many of the same reasons as Mount Doom as a standalone quest, not to mention what events really happened that would make Gorgoroth stand out on its own? It was nothing but the purest of pure travel.

Falling in with a band of orcs is a hard thing to forget.

I'd love to see another hero version of Elladan and Elrohir (without abilities explicitly tied to each other), just because it would open up deckbuilding with the existing two heroes.

I would love to see cards that make these heroes more playable. I think we would've seen them already if they were being planned though. Weren't they at helms deep? Did they come with Aragorn after helms deep? I can't remember.

If they do release allies I would hope they have a search and find effect like Fili and Kili.

I believe they arrived with the Grey Company and joined Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead.