21 hours ago, Corvax Curze said:

I have a feeling that they could possibly have the Juyo Tree divided kinda like the Shien Expert with one side being just the raw Juyo that has conflict talents and then the other side being Vaapad without conflict talents.

Vapaad caused people to fall...

Juyo was the one that was safe to practice and was considered incomplete until Windu created his own style, which could cause a pull to the dark side.

If we had a Vapaad tree, I'd like to see something critical a few tiers in that causes conflict, but at the last row another talent that strips the conflict cost away to represent mastery.

Juyo was banned from being practiced by the Jedi order, they only allowed a few select students to practice Vapaad and they had to approved by Mace Windu. Juyo was unrefined and needed the user to be aggressive Vapaad relied on the opponents aggression to feud the style but it still had flow through you so you could turn to the dark side.

4 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

Juyo was banned from being practiced by the Jedi order, they only allowed a few select students to practice Vapaad and they had to approved by Mace Windu. Juyo was unrefined and needed the user to be aggressive Vapaad relied on the opponents aggression to feud the style but it still had flow through you so you could turn to the dark side.

Juyo wasn't banned, it was just restricted by the Battlemasters of the Order. The ranking Jedi Battlemaster, responsible for instructing Jedi in the lightsaber forms, would make those decisions on a case by case basis. Anakin Skywalker requested instruction in Juyo from the last Jedi Battlemaster, Cin Drallig, who had mastered all seven forms including Juyo. Drallig refused because Anakin's aggressive personality combined with Juyo could lead to his fall to the Dark Side. However, several students around Anakin's age were trained in Juyo, so it definitely wasn't banned.

I don't think we'll see Vaapad at all, just Juyo.

Juyo is a terrible idea for player characters its a style completely devoid of defense.

Having been on the receiving end of several shinai I will say there is plenty of cunning in kendo, to convince your opponent that you're shooting for a hand strike but go for head being one of the first things a practitioner learns. Lightly tapping your opponents shinai then shoving the tip of yours into their throat is another good one (yes it's a legit strike). Making a head strike motion but switching over to a body strike.

My bet is on a Juyo Spec with a Vapad talent. I think it will be very offensive focused, probably with some new talents to play off the bad rolls of your opponent.

On 4/14/2017 at 11:22 AM, Daeglan said:

Vapaad caused people to fall...

Vapaad was Mace Windu's personal interpretation of Juyo which tamed the aggression that the original Form VII used. That's why Juyo was restricted to a select few Jedi within the order, because it used the Jedi's negative emotions to fuel it.

13 hours ago, Corvax Curze said:

Vapaad was Mace Windu's personal interpretation of Juyo which tamed the aggression that the original Form VII used. That's why Juyo was restricted to a select few Jedi within the order, because it used the Jedi's negative emotions to fuel it.

Yes. And people he taught it to fell.

On 4/14/2017 at 3:26 PM, Oden Gebhac said:

I don't think we'll see Vaapad at all, just Juyo.

Actually, I don't think we'll see Juyo at all either. Each of the Form Specializations, with exception of Shii-Cho Knight, has a Technique Talent allowing the PC to use a different Characteristic for Lightsaber Combat checks. So if all Characteristics are used by the different Form Specs, what Characteristic does FFG give to the Juyo tree?

The only Talent that would make Juyo interesting to me would be a Conflict Talent that lets you add Force Die to roll and each Pip lets you add Success per Pip and reduces the Strain cost or Destiny Point cost for using an Opposing Light/Dark pip.

I don't think it would need to have an attribute-swap technique talent because those already exist. Some type of Conflict talent strikes me as more likely, since it would let the style work with any of the others (and thus any relevant PC stat) and it's a better fit to what the style itself is about.

Armourer and Sentry (and by the sounds of it Arbiter) are Alternative Lightsaber based specs that don't have a "Form" attached to them. Sure Juyo could use a different characteristic, but is that the core of Juyo? Probably not. As most point out its significance is in use of the enemy upon themselves, in particular the enemies connection to the Dark Side.

What I do recognise is that Juyo is a fan favourite, it's not iconic to Star Wars in pop culture... but when you type Mace into Google the first suggestion for auto complete is Windu. So I feel like FFG will find a way to fit it in, probably in the Warrior book (I don't think it fits in Mystic personally). But given it's rarity in Cannon/Legends it could very nicely fit into an Adventure as an "Out of Career" spec that no character can ever get with a discount.

5 hours ago, Oden Gebhac said:

Actually, I don't think we'll see Juyo at all either. Each of the Form Specializations, with exception of Shii-Cho Knight, has a Technique Talent allowing the PC to use a different Characteristic for Lightsaber Combat checks. So if all Characteristics are used by the different Form Specs, what Characteristic does FFG give to the Juyo tree?

The only Talent that would make Juyo interesting to me would be a Conflict Talent that lets you add Force Die to roll and each Pip lets you add Success per Pip and reduces the Strain cost or Destiny Point cost for using an Opposing Light/Dark pip.

We've seen enough alternative LS combat trees to suggest that having a different characteristic for checks isn't a requirement. Thus I don't see this as a reason for why Juyo might not make it into the game.

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Armourer and Sentry (and by the sounds of it Arbiter) are Alternative Lightsaber based specs that don't have a "Form" attached to them. Sure Juyo could use a different characteristic, but is that the core of Juyo? Probably not. As most point out its significance is in use of the enemy upon themselves, in particular the enemies connection to the Dark Side.

What I do recognise is that Juyo is a fan favourite, it's not iconic to Star Wars in pop culture... but when you type Mace into Google the first suggestion for auto complete is Windu. So I feel like FFG will find a way to fit it in, probably in the Warrior book (I don't think it fits in Mystic personally). But given it's rarity in Cannon/Legends it could very nicely fit into an Adventure as an "Out of Career" spec that no character can ever get with a discount.

Agreed. Though Juyo doesn't really have any significant relationship to the enemy it's used against. Juyo was just known for being highly aggressive and unpredictable, but severely lacking in the defense department. You're probably thinking of Vaapad. Windu stated once that Vaapad was more a state of mind then a separate form. It was pretty much Juyo combined with a mental discipline to allow the user to draw strength from the Dark Side of the Force using their own dark emotions. The interesting thing was that it also drew strength from the opponents Dark Side Force use, allowing the wielder to grow stronger when facing Dark Side force users.

Sorry, your correct and I didn't really clarify what I meant. Vaapad is the signature element of Juyo, perhaps not in universe, but to us fans. I see FFG slowly going through a list of fan favourites ticking the boxes of what people want. Bounty Hunter was last for EotE, Spy will be last for AoR, Juyo could be tempting enough for them to put it in the last FaD career book released.

I can imagine that a Lightsaber spec focused entirely on offence could be very tempting to them too. With Armourer they created a gadget focused Saber spec, in their own words "we wanted to make a Ranged Lightsaber spec, so we made Sentry." I wouldn't be surprised if they asked themselves what would a fully offensive Saber spec look like? and the answer really is Juyo.

So... Any theory crafting for what this spec might look like? I picture it either not having a single rank of Reflect, or perhaps only one. On the other hand, it probably has a rank or two of Parry and very quickly gets Improved Parry (in keeping with the form's focus on offense). But I have no idea what the Juyo or Vaapad talents might be. Perhaps something to add a rank of Linked when attacking?

I think it could have something that causes disorient, and talents to capitalize off that. If it's unpredictable and a disorienting onslaught of attacks, I think the mechanical effects could fit well.

Thinking about how some fell to the dark side because of the Vapaad aspect, an interesting talent might be something that generates conflict up to a certain rank (1 per talent maybe) and lets you convert it into raw damage. With another talent that wipes away conflict generated in the encounter (or perhaps only what's generated through the use of the earlier talent) for some beneficial but more light sided effect and you could create an economy that turns conflict into a resource to be conscious of, and thematically represent that balancing act between light and dark.

Perhaps a talent that allows adding Force Dice to combat checks where Dark Side and Light Side have different ways to be used. DS could add Advantage while LS recovers Strain?

A Vapid talent that adds linked if your opponent used the Dark Side last time they attacked you?

I think Quick Draw and Quick Strike make sense, as well as Rapid Reaction.

Lethal Blows fits well

A Force Rating talent I think too.

A talent that increases your defence against your opponent for the remainder of the round if you hit. This is me trying to find a way of playing on the idea of a best defence being offence.

Saber throw could fit too, getting your opponent even when they run.

Basically I'm imagining a good initiative character who hits first and crits hard, basically a Marauder with a Saber that's not tough. There's a lot there, i doubt half of it is close, but it's some ideas.

My two cents. It would be cool to build a tree around adding the burn quality to the lightsaber. Talents could add burn quality with commitment of a force die, as well as additional damage. Have to think about damage, burn duration and etc to balance this out. The devil is in the detail. Narratively the burn quality would be described as the relentless and aggressive attack on the enemy.

My initial take on Juyo:

- No ranks of Reflect with only one rank of Parry

- A talent that allows you to reduce your defense values to gain a commensurate number of Boost Die on attacks seems very flavorful (trading defense for unpredictable strikes)

- Battlemaster Cin Drallig once stated Juyo was very kinetic (even more so then Form V Shien), so a talent that allows striking an opponent with a punch/kick to unbalance them sounds appropriate

- Due to it's kinetic nature, their would be no Force Rating Increase talents in this spec

- Overhand Strike and Counterattack seem like possible candidates

- Lethal Blows to boost Crit almost seems required for this form

Vaapad:

- I truly believe it should be a themed Signature Ability that attaches exclusively to Juyo. This also makes sense from Windu's comment that Vaapad is more a mental discipline then a separate form. It would be themed around using Force Die to provide heavy offensive bonuses

- The use of Dark Side pips would yield improved benefits over Light Side pips

- High up in the Signature tree would be a talent that allows the wielder to benefit whenever an engaged opponent uses Dark Side points as well

- While Vaapad is active, the number of Dark Side points used for the duration are counted as separate from all other Dark Side force point uses. After Vaapad ends, the wielder must immediately roll Morality vs only the points used during Vaapad's duration. This encourages a few Dark Side points to be used without having to worry about Dark Side points for the overall session. It also tempts users to dance with using the Dark Side points for greater benefits, at the cost of potentially taking several Morality hits in a single session.

I like the idea of Vaapad being an ability that can improve, but I think it unlikely we will get an entire signature ability that only links to Juyo. It's possible that could happen, probably in an adventure module, but it's currently unprecedented.

More likely would be a series of talents, perhaps Vaapad is a ranked talent, with an Improved and Supreme version. That would be far more likely given the pattern FFG have followed so far.

On 8/24/2016 at 3:44 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

The current guess is that a Juyo-based specialization will make it's appearance in the eventual Warrior sourcebook.

As for Vaapad, the guess is either it'll be themed as a Signature Ability or it'll be a top-row talent for the Juyo spec. Of course, since Vaapad is purely Legends, and even then was not widely spread (it was Mace Windu's personal variant on Form VII/Juyo and only taught to a select few individuals), so it's entirely possible that FFG won't offer any mechanical representation of Vaapad.

Is the "Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia" ( DK, April 4, 2017) canon? If so, Vaapad is also canon.

On 4/18/2017 at 7:33 PM, Richardbuxton said:

I like the idea of Vaapad being an ability that can improve, but I think it unlikely we will get an entire signature ability that only links to Juyo. It's possible that could happen, probably in an adventure module, but it's currently unprecedented.

More likely would be a series of talents, perhaps Vaapad is a ranked talent, with an Improved and Supreme version. That would be far more likely given the pattern FFG have followed so far.

Yeah I know it's unlikely that it will be a unique Signature Ability. It's about the only thing though that would do Vaapad proper justice though. Talents, even a few scaling like you suggested, will never be able to accurately reflect what we know Vaapad actually does for the wielder.

Double post.