Lets say Luke is attacking an ISD with full shields. Luke gets a crit. Crit goes right through shields, deals face up damage.

Suppose the crit says that the shield zone with the most shields gets reduced to zero.... or pick 2 hull zones and remove a shield from each.

At what point is this not Luke's attack any more? Is Luke's ability still in effect here? Would I effectively have zero shields and fake out that crit?

My gut tells me no. My gut tells me that Luke's ability was only MEANT to apply to getting the damage through, not to circumvent the text of critical effects. But I'm wondering from a rules perspective, if it came up in a tournament, how you'd settle it if someone argued it?

I believe that the wording on the Crit does not count as "Luke's attack".

But I'm wondering from a rules perspective, if it came up in a tournament, how you'd settle it if someone argued it?

Defenestration.

In seriousness:

Treating Lukes Attack like that, in the fact that you counter all criticals as part of the attack, has an absolutely massive follow on effect for a whole bunch of other cards... We discovered this in the Fire Control Team thread as part of exploring possibilities... Trust me. Go there and be bewildered...

I would doubt anyone would actually truly want it that way, unless they were simply attempting to game the system to get their way for that one and only thing... In which case, my answer above becomes my answer.

The attack is just the roll, once the crit comes up you are resolving damage, and Luke's attack run is over. He's flying away with Han and Wedge while your **** blows up in the background, thinking very un-Jedi like thoughts about a woman he doesn't realize is actually his sister.

Now thats a crit to resolve, right there.

Seriously.

Bring this up.

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Right now, the simplest way to describe it is that the rules reference guide really does a poor job as to what is considered "damage." If Luke's ability had no effect on shields, or caused crits to shields to do equivalent damage "through" the shield, there would be bedlam as various effects piled on.from even more egregious anti-defense cards and strange combos.

Seriously.

Bring this up.

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OMG! I actually thought of this scene when I read your post!

Simple do the text say it can not effect shields? No it says "Treat the defending as having no shields" IE the attack goes through and gets a crit that says "Misaligned Projector the hull zone with the most shields loses all shield points". Luke damaged the projector and did not directly cause the loss of the shields the projector he damaged did.

One interpretation could be: If you are treating all shields as being 0 for the attack and the Crit effect is still taking place within this window, then all 4 zones are tied. So the defender can choose any facing to lose it's remaining shields.

Basically the evaluation of the effect uses the temp value of 0, but the effect causes the actual sheild value to be set 0. This is similar to many of the speed dial manipulations that use temporary values.

But this interaction really needs FFG clarification to be sure.

No, I feel it doesn't need clarification.

What it needs, is people to accept the fact that, if it does work that way, the game gets broken in regards to all other things that such a ruling would effect.

It needs people to accept the fact that we have been playing the game, after being told to play the game, by FFG, in a particular way, since the game's inception (Luke was in the first Starter Set, after all), and to do something differently now would be a major, major change of experience. It is very difficult to assume that we have been playing the game wrong through 2 years of Organised and Official play... And playing it in a way that is a huge deal ...

This is one of those things that, if you do accept and change, it modifies the game at a core, visceral level, and will have flow on effects..,

Don't do it.

Seriously.

Bring this up.

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Not a legal defenestration. No glass, so the assumption is that he was thrown through a window but actually it was just a hole in the wall.

One interpretation could be: If you are treating all shields as being 0 for the attack and the Crit effect is still taking place within this window, then all 4 zones are tied. So the defender can choose any facing to lose it's remaining shields.

Basically the evaluation of the effect uses the temp value of 0, but the effect causes the actual sheild value to be set 0. This is similar to many of the speed dial manipulations that use temporary values.

But this interaction really needs FFG clarification to be sure.

That was quite fanciful.

I think it would go a long way for FFG to provide a general section on multiple effect interactions. For example:

Effects and modifiers active during an attack are not applied to the resolution of a Face Up Damage Card Effects.

Effects and modifiers that cause temporary stat value changes do not prevent other effects from altering the actual stat value.

While a temporary stat change is in effect, use the actual stat value when a effect requires you to compare values.

There is no clarification needed.

When you roll the attack dice for Luke, you look at the damage, then the defender decides if any action is going to be taken, noting the fact that for this attack, he cannot reduce the damage, by taking it on his/her shields.

You can force a reroll of the dice (Monmothma/Lando/Targetting Scrambler)

You can use a Brace to reduce the damage to 1 if they rolled a Crit/Hit

You can spend a Contain to stop the damage card being dealt face up

You can spend a redirect, but it will do nothing.

You cannot take the damage on your shields.

You can discard a defense token to cancel the attack dice (Admonition)

You can reduce the damage by 1 if the attack was not at your rear. (Bright Hope)

So if you have a Brace/Contain you can limit the attack to 1 face down damage card

If you do not have a Brace/Contain, or you do not wish to use them, you can take a maximum of 1 face up, and 1 face down damage card from an Attack by Luke.

That is the ups and downs of that card, there are no other possible interactions, or even interpretations.

Edited to add : Bright Hope / Admonition interactions.

Thanks for the detailed post on how to resolve an attack. But you didn't address any question that was asked in the thread.

The thread was about the timing of the critical effect, which takes place during the resolve damage step of the attack. The face up damage card is dealt and resolves immediately. This resolution of the damage card must be still within the attack sequence since a further damage card could still be dealt after the face up card was resolved.

The question was the specific interaction of Luke's effect and the misaligned projectors damage card. Misaligned projectors is seriously impacted by Luke's ability, but there is no rule justification to ignore Luke's effect.

I would think that any time RAW conflicts with RAI should justify clarification, especially when there are possible RAW interpretations. Obviously the community would rather ignore the question than have FFG clarify conflicting interactions between effects.

So I guess the consensus would be...

Assume Luke's attack hits with 1 hit and 1 crit and no defense tokens are used.

Using Luke's effect you treat the shields as being 0 and deal the first card face up

Ignore Luke's effect and resolve the damage card effect

Using Luke's effect you treat the shields as being 0 and deal the second card face down

Again, if you encapsulate the critical hit wording resolution within the basis of the attack resolution, you risk a lot of unintended consequences.

Especially when you then add the Fire Control Team card into the deal...

Err on the side of simplicity (and consequently, the way we've all been playing)... In that Luke's ability ignores shields for the purposes of damage resolution.

I agree that Luke's ability should be ignored in this case. It just plays better that way. I just also think that these interactions should be described in the RRG in a general fashion, not per card (see my post above). Not that I think FFG will make such a change.

I don't like making a gut call as to when to apply an effect or not. Especially in a competitive game.

I beg to differ. Luke's ability is very easy to understand and use. No clarification is needed, on the card, in the RRG or in a FAQ.

Thanks for the detailed post on how to resolve an attack. But you didn't address any question that was asked in the thread.

The thread was about the timing of the critical effect, which takes place during the resolve damage step of the attack. The face up damage card is dealt and resolves immediately. This resolution of the damage card must be still within the attack sequence since a further damage card could still be dealt after the face up card was resolved.

The question was the specific interaction of Luke's effect and the misaligned projectors damage card. Misaligned projectors is seriously impacted by Luke's ability, but there is no rule justification to ignore Luke's effect.

I would think that any time RAW conflicts with RAI should justify clarification, especially when there are possible RAW interpretations. Obviously the community would rather ignore the question than have FFG clarify conflicting interactions between effects.

So I guess the consensus would be...

Assume Luke's attack hits with 1 hit and 1 crit and no defense tokens are used.

Using Luke's effect you treat the shields as being 0 and deal the first card face up

Ignore Luke's effect and resolve the damage card effect

Using Luke's effect you treat the shields as being 0 and deal the second card face down

No I didn't miss it, Luke only affects the stages of the attack that the defender has to resolve prior to the damage card deck being touched.

If Luke has dealt 2 damage, you decide on one or more of the interactions that are legal for the defender, then you resolve up to 2 damage cards. There is no grey area, and there is no possible confusion. Lukes ability stops you using shields to soak the damage he causes, it is simple, that is the totality of Lukes interaction with shields on a defending vessel.

Eastern,

Respectfully, while your streamlined version probably reflect what most people do, but is not the process detailed in the RRG.

Damage is dealt one point at a time. And how that damage is dealt is determined as each point is applied. The Crit is resolved in between 2 tasks that require his effect to be active.

The sequence in the RRG for Luke dealing 1hit and 1crit is:

Choose the Crit effect

Sum up Crits and Hits (2)

To deal the first point, determined if there are shields. Luke says they are 0, so deal a face down damage card*.

*Because of the standard Crit effect change this to face up and resolve the effect IMMEDIATELY.

To deal the second point, determined if there are shields. Luke says they are 0, so deal a face down damage card.

BTW, while I don't disagree, you are arguing intention, not what the card says. Luke's effect is "for the attack". You are adding a lot of assumptions that the rules and card text don't support.

And exactly where does this make Luke's ability problematic?

It's the same as every other attack, sans the shield 0 thing.

You do not for one moment think that his text really means that crits that affect shields have no effect. Because that would be so messy and complicated it wouldn't be funny. So just do what the rest of us do, and resolve it the way it's written and intended.

GK. While wearing my rules lawyer hat, I try very hard to avoid assumptions. That card states "while attacking" and damage card effects resolve during the defined attack sequence. We could possibly consider the Crit effect as out of process, but there is nothing to indicate that.

But, no. I do not think that is what they Intended. You are right that is is problematic and has implications on other cards. My point is that ignoring the rules because the end result make you uncomfortable, is still ignoring the rules. Expecting every other player to apply the same assumptions is asking for conflict before you hit the table. As I have said, I feel that the RRG could be improved by including a few bullets on effect type interactions. These interactions are exactly where most of the argument arise.

(don't worry, I take this hat off while playing. I am a RAW guy in the forum, but understand that RAI is needed at the table)

Or maybe the attack is over once it gets to dealing damage cards?

Nothing else has any interaction with damage cards (text on damage cards) so all of a sudden for 2 years, everyone including FFG have been using Luke wrong?

Eastern, the attack can't be over. By the book you resolve damage one point at a time and the face up crit effect is resolved before the second damage card is even dealt. If the shields are no longer treated as 0 at this stage, the second damage would hit the shields and not be a face down card. I realize nobody plays this way, but this is the sequence described in the RRG.

I'm not saying it is 'wrong' to ignore Luke's effect on the crit effect. It intuitively makes sense to ignore it. It's just that this is not supported by the RRG. Honestly this is a minor point anyway. Nobody is making their list planning on Luke landing this combo.