Hi All,

I'm confused about an aspect of invoking a Blessing?

The rulebook says:

1) (page 32) "Once a blessing is successfully invoked, it automatically draws favour from the character in an attempt to fulfil the requirements."

also

2) (page 32) "If the Character does not have enough favour to immediately activate the blessing, all of the character's favour is drawn out and placed on the blessing card..."

Assume a situation whereby an Initiate successfully invokes a 4 favour blessing, but has an equilibrium and current favour of 3. Under the above rules, those 3 favour are drawn out and placed on the actual card.

Three questions: 1) If the Initiate gets a bane/Chaos star result that forces him to lose 1 favour, does the Initiate take it from the blessing card, OR does he have no favour to lose and suffers the Discipline check penalty?

2) Does the initiate count as having no favour and thus gains 1 favour during the end turn, due to the slow equilibrium recharge? or does he count as having the 3 favour sitting upon the Invocation card (and is therefore at equilibrium and receives no favour recharge)?

3) If the Initiate does count as having no favour, and gets the 1 equilibrium recharge at the end of their turn, does the invocation happen, or does it wait until the Initiates next turn to draw that 1 favour?

Thanks for any help here!

Zaric73 said:

1. My understanding is that an effect that causes him to lose favour would be taken from his pool before the favour goes on to the blessing - as support for that I would say that if you fail to cast the blessing the favour is never removed from you.

2. I would say you get the favour - however I am not official and due to the ramifications of your next question it may be ruled that you don't

3. Good question, one I have wondered about for a while =)

Sorry I don't have definitive official answers, just opinions, but that is pretty much all you are gonna get here until the next update to the errata =)

My opinions:

1) If the Initiate gets a bane/Chaos star result that forces him to lose 1 favour, does the Initiate take it from the blessing card, OR does he have no favour to lose and suffers the Discipline check penalty?

He has no favor. Once the invocation is a success (which is determined before Effects lines) the favor is used. Thus, at the point of checking the Chaos Star effect, the initiate has no favor.

2) Does the initiate count as having no favour and thus gains 1 favour during the end turn, due to the slow equilibrium recharge? or does he count as having the 3 favour sitting upon the Invocation card (and is therefore at equilibrium and receives no favour recharge)?

Yes, the initiate has no favor at the end of their turn (it has been spent on the blessing), and will gain 1 towards equilibrum.

3) If the Initiate does count as having no favour, and gets the 1 equilibrium recharge at the end of their turn, does the invocation happen, or does it wait until the Initiates next turn to draw that 1 favour?

No, favor transfers at the beginning of the player's turn. Thus, the initiate will remain at 1 favor until the beginning of his next turn when the favor transfers to the invocation and the blessing finishes casting.

dvang said:

Do you have a page ref for this, someone else prev posted a page ref for it saying that favour is immediately transferred to the waiting miracle.

Nope, that's off the top of my head. I'll try to remember to check my books at home if no one beats me to it.

On Pg 32 under "Aborting A Blessing" it states:

"If a character aborts a blessing that is currently holding favour, all favour is lost and returned to the supply."

This seems to indicate that the blessing itself is now in possession of the favour and not the character [though it may trigger Fatigue and Stress]

Kaptain O said:

p 32 Tome of Blessings:

"If the character does not have enough favour to immediately activate the blessing, all of the character's favour is drawn out and placed on the blessing card to indicate how much favour has already been accumulated.

Ont the character's NEXT turn, during his Beginning of Turn phase, a previously invoked blessing that still requires additional favour will automatically draw any new favour generated until it has satisfied the blessing's requirement, or until there is no more favour to draw. If the requirement has been fullfilled, the blessing's effect goes of DURING that character's turn..."

This is quite important, since it has the effect of priestly magic oftentimes being 1 round slower than wizardly magic. If the priest uses channel to generate enough favour for a spell on the round after he cast the spell (round 2)... the spell wont draw that favour into itself and be triggered until the round after that (round 3).

As for the first two questions... the priest doesnt have any favour anymore if he was drained to zero by the blessing (it is the blessing that has the favour now) so the priest begins to regenerate favour at the end of that turn (also indirectly confirmed from the rules on p 32.)

Hi All,

Thanks for all the suggestions. It seems the answers are cryptically strewn across a couple of paragraphs and its just up to us to cross-reference and decipher the implications.

Talk about hard work

In retrospect, a little less art and a few more examples would have gone a long way to make these a more accessable set of rules.

I'm now convinced that favour is on the blessing itself, and that any new favour doesn't transfer until the beginning of the next player's turn.

I'm now guessing that if you invoke a blessing such as "Morr's Touch" (in reckless stance), and you roll both a success and a bane, that you can choose to suffer the bane first, thereby losing 1 stress and 1 favour, and then, with your remaining power, place that onto the blessing card due to the success rolled?

There is nothing on pages 45 and 46 of the WFRP that would suggest that banes and successes have to be taken in any particular order. Is that how you all read this?

However, the "losing favour" rules on page 33 of the ToB says "...the bane or chaos star effects of some blessings may force a character to lose favour IN ADDITION to any favour consumed by the invocation of the blessing." does this imply that the bane/chaos star must come before the success?

Thanks for the ongoing support!!

Hi All,

I just thought of another thing in answer to my own question. If you can choose banes before successes, how can an Initiate ever be on zero favour and lose favour in order to suffer the "No favour to lose" rule on page 33 of ToB.

I guess that would mean that you don't invoke another blessing whilst you have a blessing still accumulating favour, but can you even do that anyway? In your next turn? or do you have to abort one blessing before invoking another? AAHHHRRG!

On page 32 of the ToB it says that "If the Invocation Check fails, the blessing is not successfully invoked...the character can try again on another turn."

But to me, this is just a rule that prevents a character continually attempting to invoke a blessing after failing. This would imply that once a blessing has failed to be invoked, the character cannot try for another blessing ON THE SAME TURN (like failing a melee strike).

But this doesn't answer the question of how many blessings can be invoked SUCCESSFULLY across the characters turns, or whether only one successful blessing can absorb favour at one time. But if it is only one successful blessing absorbing favour at one time, and banes can come before successes, then the "No favour to lose" rule is useless!

please help

Freiduin said:

Also p32 Tome of Blessings:

In the example callout "Invoking a Blessing"

"If the Initiate of Sigmar had only 3 favour available, all 3 favour would be placed on the Divine Perseverance card to show it was in the process of being invoked. As soon as a 4th favour was available, it would be claimed by Divine Perseverance and the blessing would resolve. '"

That seems to be contrary to your quote - unless you read your quote as "this happens during the beginning of turn phase but not ONLY during the beginning of turn phase". I don't know how it should work, I don't know what should take precedence.

Freiduin said:

I thought this initially at first but I think this is incorrect.

If this was true "Currying Favor" in "Great Need" would be pointless, because you have to curry favor after you invoke the blessing. So, what's the whole point of taking an extra-challenge die if it still doesn't work till next turn?

When the mage does it, it goes off on the same turn and I think that the wording is so similar between the 2 that they are implying the same thing. If you want a Blessing to go off on the same turn you invoke it, ( and don't have enough favor) you can still take a chance and use Curry favor in the same round (taking a penalty). That to me is what the rules are implying.

Now to extrapolate that, I think the blessing is always looking to fulfill the requirements (after being invoked) during the Combat Phase until the End of Turn Phase. Essentially it will resolve whenever there's enough favour to fulfill the requirements in the combat phase. So, curry favor in the same round means, it goes off if you can generate enough favor. You can generate favor by landing a critical (SIgmar) and that would resolve the blessing if it completed the spell.

Once we get to the end of turn phase, your turn is essentially over, so any favor gained at this time will have to wait till the beginning of your next turn. For instance gaining favor because of equilibrium needs to wait till next turn because it happened at the end of your turn and not during it.

I just don't see the point of Urgent need if the blessing only looks for favour when you initially invoke the blessing and then at the beginning of your turn...

Maybe they can adress this in the FAQ soon?

I stand corrected. Put too much emphasis on "the character's next turn" - part of that text. Just discussed your example with the rest of my gaming group and it was unanimous that your interpretation meant alot more sense than the one we've been using so far. And our initiate was soooo happy! ( a special thanks from him)

Cool !!! Now lets just see what the FAQ says on the issue. ( if it ever does) We'll be using this interpretation, so far it's working great for us. Happy gaming!!!

Our group play it so that the blessing fills up the next turn and not directly after youve made a curry favor check.

We have agreed that casting magic is more dangerous than invoking a blessing because of the requirement that you have to have enough power before casting the spell. This can be risky since you can fail and be in a position with more than twice you WP more often than priest does.

The drawback for a priest invoking blessings in a more secure fashion would be the sometimes added delays.

We think this is a fair tradeoff and will probably run as this until we have some official ruling/faq that points in another direction.