So, I'm way behind on the story (sometime early Four Winds, I'm guessing), but I've picked up pieces here and there of what's going on in more recent times. Hearing about stuff that was intended for Onyx arc, I have to wonder what in the world happened to Mantis?

From what I gather, the Mantis were more or less wiped out and scattered by Kanpeki's initial assault. Ok, he's powerful; I got that. But why the Mantis? Looking at maps of Rokugan, the Mantis wouldn't really be between the Spider and any other targets, so they weren't simply a target of opportunity. This means they were singled out, but to what end? Sure, Mantis are awesome and all, but if I were Kanpeki, would I really consider them to be my number one priority? Is there fiction giving insight into this decision or otherwise helping make sense of it? Or was this simply the design team deciding they wanted an arc without Mantis, and the story team creating a kami ex machina to make it happen?

I understand this may all mean nothing, ultimately, if FFG decides to reset to an earlier point rather than continue where the game left off, but I really would like to know.

as far as story goes, Kanpeki didn't actually target them. One of the three seals he broke in order to unleash Jigoku on Rokugan was under water out in the islands, and breaking in unleashed a massive wave and a bunch of seamonsters. so it wasn't that he targeted them so much as they were a lucky victim of something he was doing anyway. this all takes place in a set of fictions that aren't technically official, but were written by the story team after the sale, which you can get here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/226434-last-aeg-fictions/ you're specifically looking for the battle of the first seal.

as far as why mantis in general? because i think AEG wanted to bust on someone and picked the mantis because they figured they could? there wasn't a clear explanation of why your boys got picked for that particular honor. as i recall, the announcement of that upcoming fate was met with not insignificant screaming.

From what I gather, the Mantis were more or less wiped out and scattered by Kanpeki's initial assault. Ok, he's powerful; I got that. But why the Mantis? Looking at maps of Rokugan, the Mantis wouldn't really be between the Spider and any other targets, so they weren't simply a target of opportunity. This means they were singled out, but to what end? Sure, Mantis are awesome and all, but if I were Kanpeki, would I really consider them to be my number one priority? Is there fiction giving insight into this decision or otherwise helping make sense of it? Or was this simply the design team deciding they wanted an arc without Mantis, and the story team creating a kami ex machina to make it happen?

Mantis was chosen because Design was bringing back Naga as a player faction and they were too similar.

From what I gather, the Mantis were more or less wiped out and scattered by Kanpeki's initial assault. Ok, he's powerful; I got that. But why the Mantis? Looking at maps of Rokugan, the Mantis wouldn't really be between the Spider and any other targets, so they weren't simply a target of opportunity. This means they were singled out, but to what end? Sure, Mantis are awesome and all, but if I were Kanpeki, would I really consider them to be my number one priority? Is there fiction giving insight into this decision or otherwise helping make sense of it? Or was this simply the design team deciding they wanted an arc without Mantis, and the story team creating a kami ex machina to make it happen?

Mantis was chosen because Design was bringing back Naga as a player faction and they were too similar.

too similar how? l gotta say i really don't know if i buy this excuse, or at least i don't understand it. mantis circa 20F/Onyx don't seem to have any mechanics that suggest naga. ranged attacks? basically every clan did ranged or melee.

Mantis was chosen because Design was bringing back Naga as a player faction and they were too similar.

We were told on the back end that it was based on the Imperial Assembly numbers. We were the Clan with the smallest number of subscriptions. Design similarities were a (un)happy accident.

There were a number of people at AEG that expressed their disagreement with that plan. Story, Vanguard, and Bryan Reese were not among them.

as far as story goes, Kanpeki didn't actually target them. One of the three seals he broke in order to unleash Jigoku on Rokugan was under water out in the islands, and breaking in unleashed a massive wave and a bunch of seamonsters. so it wasn't that he targeted them so much as they were a lucky victim of something he was doing anyway. this all takes place in a set of fictions that aren't technically official, but were written by the story team after the sale, which you can get here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/226434-last-aeg-fictions/ you're specifically looking for the battle of the first seal.

For the sake of accuracy, I will point out the until FFG tells us what the story is, "Onyx Dawn" is no more official than what I have been writing for Tomorrow's Prophets.

To answer JJ48's question, it was ultimately a decision by AEG Brand to take the game back to a Clan War type Era.

Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I have to say, I still don't particularly care for the direction AEG was taking the story (and I hope FFG doesn't continue along that line), but at least now I understand a bit better why it was headed in that direction.

From what I gathered it was two fold.

First their clan was the smallest according to Imperial Assembly and their other sources.

Second, and in my opinion the more important one, in a game where economy was the most important aspect of the game, Mantis were completely environment warping. For Emperor they had an insane gold flood with Kalani's Landing and in Ivory their stronghold was the best by FAR, providing the best starts, best economy, and card advantage all in the same breath. They dominated for years upon years. Naval was also a very difficult ability to balance for the clans and having an entire clan built around the concept seemed to be causing problems.

The decision to knock them off was to remove these aspects from the environment of the game and allow Naga to take their place. Naga, while being a clan about ranged attacks, started with 2 honor, and had scout subthemes was more balanced and probably more gimmick fueled then just Economy, The Clan. The nostalgia for Naga and their return also would have set the stage for complaints for the mantis' removal being subdued by their replacement by much wanted naga.

However, when announce the outcry was large and Brand and story almost immediately promised their return in a years time, defeating ANY mechanical reasons for their absence and creating a weird and bad situation where 10 clans would suddenly exist, during a time when the complain was already that the game had too many factions as is.

This echoes in the fate of Spider clan, which was originally intended to flat out return to their Hordes, and more mechanically sound, form. Again, heavily protested by players that came to like the more Lost centered villains and in the end a compromise was reached to be implemented, again, in one years time. However this was just a slight theme and mechanics shift, Hoard for the first year on Onyx, Lost Shourido Paragons the next, unlike Mantis which was designed to be removed for a different faction entirely, then would be forced back in.

My guess was that Naga was doomed from that moment on, they were similar to mantis, but not mantis and 10 factions would heavily tax the personalities in each set. I wouldn't have been surprised if, should the game continued on for 3 or more years that Naga would have been removed entirely. But that's just me... A shame though because I like snakes.

From what I gathered it was two fold.

First their clan was the smallest according to Imperial Assembly and their other sources.

Second, and in my opinion the more important one, in a game where economy was the most important aspect of the game, Mantis were completely environment warping. For Emperor they had an insane gold flood with Kalani's Landing and in Ivory their stronghold was the best by FAR, providing the best starts, best economy, and card advantage all in the same breath. They dominated for years upon years. Naval was also a very difficult ability to balance for the clans and having an entire clan built around the concept seemed to be causing problems.

The decision to knock them off was to remove these aspects from the environment of the game and allow Naga to take their place. Naga, while being a clan about ranged attacks, started with 2 honor, and had scout subthemes was more balanced and probably more gimmick fueled then just Economy, The Clan. The nostalgia for Naga and their return also would have set the stage for complaints for the mantis' removal being subdued by their replacement by much wanted naga.

However, when announce the outcry was large and Brand and story almost immediately promised their return in a years time, defeating ANY mechanical reasons for their absence and creating a weird and bad situation where 10 clans would suddenly exist, during a time when the complain was already that the game had too many factions as is.

This echoes in the fate of Spider clan, which was originally intended to flat out return to their Hordes, and more mechanically sound, form. Again, heavily protested by players that came to like the more Lost centered villains and in the end a compromise was reached to be implemented, again, in one years time. However this was just a slight theme and mechanics shift, Hoard for the first year on Onyx, Lost Shourido Paragons the next, unlike Mantis which was designed to be removed for a different faction entirely, then would be forced back in.

My guess was that Naga was doomed from that moment on, they were similar to mantis, but not mantis and 10 factions would heavily tax the personalities in each set. I wouldn't have been surprised if, should the game continued on for 3 or more years that Naga would have been removed entirely. But that's just me... A shame though because I like snakes.

Speaking of abandoned factions, whatever happened to the Ratlings? I'm assuming they were dropped at some point due to there being too many factions already, but was there ever an in-universe explanation for their complete disappearance? I'm actually rather surprised that I haven't even seen an occasional unaligned personality, or anything.

Speaking of abandoned factions, whatever happened to the Ratlings? I'm assuming they were dropped at some point due to there being too many factions already, but was there ever an in-universe explanation for their complete disappearance? I'm actually rather surprised that I haven't even seen an occasional unaligned personality, or anything.

Oh yes, there was a story about that. The Ratlings fought the Tomorrow in an apocalyptic battle and effectively over-fed it with themselves.

Also, I don't think that the number of factions was a problem. More like the game was designed for less factions, and as such, there was a thematic overcrowding that spawned weird off-shots. Like, the Spider wanted this "villain clan" theme going on, but the Scorpion already had that, so the Spider had to do some weird twists on the theme in order to remain original.

as far as story goes, Kanpeki didn't actually target them. One of the three seals he broke in order to unleash Jigoku on Rokugan was under water out in the islands, and breaking in unleashed a massive wave and a bunch of seamonsters. so it wasn't that he targeted them so much as they were a lucky victim of something he was doing anyway. this all takes place in a set of fictions that aren't technically official, but were written by the story team after the sale, which you can get here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/226434-last-aeg-fictions/ you're specifically looking for the battle of the first seal.

For the sake of accuracy, I will point out the until FFG tells us what the story is, "Onyx Dawn" is no more official than what I have been writing for Tomorrow's Prophets.

To answer JJ48's question, it was ultimately a decision by AEG Brand to take the game back to a Clan War type Era.

Well that's not quite accurate. Onyx dawn was written by the AEG story team. It was never canonized by management but it was the officially wirters. I'm willing to say that's one degree shy of the same status as the rest of the AEG canon. It may end up conflicting with what FFG does but I don't think it's on the same level as community created stuff.

Regardless it was a (rather ham-fisted) attempt for a 'soft reboot' as the only Clans that had any meaningful options where the Mantis, Spider, and Unicorn; all of which were the only ones to actually suffer any serious damage to their Clan by the Story Team.

The Mantis were being 'pushed' to revert back to their Minor Clan status and break up their power-base....which was meet with the entire Mantis Fanbase turning its collective glare to the perpetrators and 'fixing' the problem in traditional Mantis Blunt-force fashion.

The Unicorn had the whole 'Rokugan Pure Blood Act' (that was eventually Retconed) working against them from the previous Storyboard Blunder, and their best options where to leave Rokugan and gather allies gaijin factions...which they took for the most part.

The Spider got screwed even worse than the Mantis in that there was a total lack of transparency between the fanbase and the Story Team, with only extremely vague options and no-win scenarios. To clarify that bit, it was originally set up to look like Player had only two options "Revert back to Horde" or "Give up EVERYTHING that makes the Spider Clan and hope for the best" ...which needless to say did not go ever well and it took till near the end of the first Phase of voting before the Story Team actually started to clarify both options.

...and then of course the franchise got sold. If your thinking this was a classic case to total F.U.B.A.R.; then congratulations: Your correct!

Regardless it was a (rather ham-fisted) attempt for a 'soft reboot' as the only Clans that had any meaningful options where the Mantis, Spider, and Unicorn; all of which were the only ones to actually suffer any serious damage to their Clan by the Story Team.

The Mantis were being 'pushed' to revert back to their Minor Clan status and break up their power-base....which was meet with the entire Mantis Fanbase turning its collective glare to the perpetrators and 'fixing' the problem in traditional Mantis Blunt-force fashion.

The Unicorn had the whole 'Rokugan Pure Blood Act' (that was eventually Retconed) working against them from the previous Storyboard Blunder, and their best options where to leave Rokugan and gather allies gaijin factions...which they took for the most part.

The Spider got screwed even worse than the Mantis in that there was a total lack of transparency between the fanbase and the Story Team, with only extremely vague options and no-win scenarios. To clarify that bit, it was originally set up to look like Player had only two options "Revert back to Horde" or "Give up EVERYTHING that makes the Spider Clan and hope for the best" ...which needless to say did not go ever well and it took till near the end of the first Phase of voting before the Story Team actually started to clarify both options.

...and then of course the franchise got sold. If your thinking this was a classic case to total F.U.B.A.R.; then congratulations: Your correct!

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

Phoenix had to pretty much write our own options (mine took a solid second,and Donny's took first, meaning our two fan-submitted options utterly crushed all three AEG offered us), because the ones Brand offered were boring as all get out... Dragon needed to hammer theirs into workable shape.

It was... both weird and exciting at the same time.

I know during Winter Court 4 that one of the Crab's goals was to secure additional naval forces from the other Clans to help deal with increased activity from the Sea of Shadows and the majority of those forces ended up coming from the Mantis.

In addition, during the following Kotei season player got to vote on what the first decree of Iweko II would be. One of the options was to pardon the Clans that had supported Shibatsu (which included the Mantis) and it did not win the vote.

So I was somewhat expecting a hammer to get dropped on the Mantis, but I was surprised to see of big it ended up being.

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

I got the general impression that the Mantis options looked much more appealing to non-Mantis players. As somebody (I forget who) said at the time, nice idea, wrong clan to inflict it on, from a player interest standpoint.

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

I got the general impression that the Mantis options looked much more appealing to non-Mantis players. As somebody (I forget who) said at the time, nice idea, wrong clan to inflict it on, from a player interest standpoint.

That was me... 'cause they'd basically made the Phoenix and Dragon both all but directionless in the story for ages,and I contended that letting Clans whose playerbases were NOT happy with where they were in the story make some decisions about core identity.

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

There was a lot of nuance that was lost on the Community as a whole about our choices last year.

Our Choices were:

• Rebuild the Clan (and making the Yortomo family functional again)
• Become a Kolat Merchant House
• Morph into the Minor Clan Alliance and play all the Minor Clans (non-Mantis had a particular loathing for this option)

We voted to rebuild the Clan, with the understanding that there would be a choice presented later about who got to rebuild. The internal fight we were gearing up for was to choose how we rebuilt and who was going to be in charge (change in leading family).

Most of us did not vote to "keep it the same".

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

There was a lot of nuance that was lost on the Community as a whole about our choices last year.

Our Choices were:

• Rebuild the Clan (and making the Yortomo family functional again)
• Become a Kolat Merchant House
• Morph into the Minor Clan Alliance and play all the Minor Clans (non-Mantis had a particular loathing for this option)

We voted to rebuild the Clan, with the understanding that there would be a choice presented later about who got to rebuild. The internal fight we were gearing up for was to choose how we rebuilt and who was going to be in charge (change in leading family).

Most of us did not vote to "keep it the same".

Wasn't there also a trade/ally with the gaijin option? The other options, too, were stuff like "unite many small groups into (potentially) the most powerful force in Rokugan" and "shake up the entire Rokugani social structure" and whatnot. I'm just saying that compared to those, "pick a new leader who may have a different name than the previous one" seemed a bit too status quo for my tastes.

Though, as I said, I'm not current on the story, so I suppose it's possible that Yoritomo leadership and other families' ideas of leadership could differ to such a degree that it would have a really big impact, but it just all sounds like more of bragging rights than anything really meaningful.

The merchant option 'would' have been a great option in many other types of games...but this is Legend of the 5 Rings.

When Coyote Walks says Kolat 2.0 he means that in every sense of the word, but much worse.

As merchants they wouldn't have much (if any presence) in the Card Game.

As merchants they would also not be invited to the Winter Court (the RPG element).

As merchants in a gameline about 'Samurai' they would have no positive story time (they would only be used like, the Kolat, when they need a villian).

A vote therefore for the merchant option was one to destroy the entire Mantis FOR.EV.VER! *insert 90's film reference*

Perhaps even worse the probably wouldn't of lasted long anyways since latter votes and stories would of likely driven other factions to destroy them...just like the Kolat (who at least 'they' have the secret identities thing going for their members).

The merchant option 'would' have been a great option in many other types of games...but this is Legend of the 5 Rings.

When Coyote Walks says Kolat 2.0 he means that in every sense of the word, but much worse.

As merchants they wouldn't have much (if any presence) in the Card Game.

As merchants they would also not be invited to the Winter Court (the RPG element).

As merchants in a gameline about 'Samurai' they would have no positive story time (they would only be used like, the Kolat, when they need a villian).

A vote therefore for the merchant option was one to destroy the entire Mantis FOR.EV.VER! *insert 90's film reference*

Perhaps even worse the probably wouldn't of lasted long anyways since latter votes and stories would of likely driven other factions to destroy them...just like the Kolat (who at least 'they' have the secret identities thing going for their members).

Was this all explained somewhere, because I didn't get that impression at all from the choice descriptions as presented. If they kept it secret, then it sounds like they were basically trying to trick us into destroying the Mantis. If it was announced somewhere, then it sounds like they were trying to railroad us into the one option they had planned for. Either way, why even bother having a poll at that point?

Every day I am happier and happier that AEG is no longer a part of this.

Either way, why even bother having a poll at that point?

Because they were trying to look good after realizing that they were about to piss a lot of people off again after having done so just a few months earlier. A game that prided and advertised itself on its interactability wasn't really interactive, and someone was trying to salvage things by doing the polls. 2015 was a complete mess from January to September.

You wouldn't be the only pretty much next to nobody was sad to AEG go (although to fair, it was the Brand people that had cased the most damage overall), as the mismanagement of the franchise was grating everyone's nerves long before it was sold. You are aware of the previous 'event' where Clans had to compete to keep Aspects of their Clan (like: the Kaiu Wall,dual wielding, ninja's etc.) and had to worry about them being stolen by other Clans (the Dragon apparently lost the Tattooed Monks to the Unicorn if the last stories are to be believed).

Oh and the before mentioned Racial Purity Crusade that was the 'original' intent on the Unicorn/Phoenix War that placed the Phoenix Clan squaring in the Nazi Camp decrying that 'gajin blood is cursed' and therefore all Unicorn (and to a lesser degree the Mantis) were all cursed. The poor Phoenix Players like Shiba Gunichi threw up their hands and raged against the Heavens for a long time before it was changed (the one time most Phoenix Players didn't care that their Clan was going to curbed stomped...a situation that has happened far too many time for them, hence their Choice in the voting).

And the Totally Pointless Race between the Iswea Brothers...yeah bad management all the round.

As for whether they told anyone; Of Course NOT!

They didnt tell anyone that the franchise was being sold and that the Boards were being shut down for good (costing people a massive amount of fanmade material) until after the fact. They didnt tell anyone that the voting in general was going to be pointless because the Brand was planning on selling the franchise before it was done. They didnt tell the Spider Clan that their Clan-Status was going to revoked in the future so they could throw Ken-chan into the role of the Big Bad (long before they even started characterizing him).

But before I fly too far off tangent, the reason it was so obvious to many that the Merchant option was a poisoned chalice is because of something a Designer said on the matter of lacking Emperors and technological stasis (though I'm not quoting word for word).

"Legend of the Five Rings is a game about Samurai; no matter what era you chose it will always be about samurai and their struggles."

Ergo if you aren't a Samurai you are not a Protagonist and therefore have no say in the story.

Being a Minor means a lose of Power and Influence.

Being a merchant means you may as well not exist (there are no, as far as I've found, stories involving the peasant caste that treated them like they were important to the plot).

I thought the Mantis options were actually quite intriguing, until the majority voted for the "keep everything essentially the same and don't do cool stuff" option.

I got the general impression that the Mantis options looked much more appealing to non-Mantis players. As somebody (I forget who) said at the time, nice idea, wrong clan to inflict it on, from a player interest standpoint.

This would be the key point.

The really die-hard Mantis (i.e. the folks who killed themselves collecting koku during the Race) looked at the options this way:

A) Mantis had already been the "let's lose a clan" victims (see Gold).

B) As a consequence, had been promised a lot of things would be "great" if they would just "wait and see"--but very little, if any of it ever happened. (There used to be a list of story prizes that took up . . . a LOT of space.)

C) Had thrown themselves with wild abandon into the Race for the Throne because . . . none of the first "wait and see's" had come to pass but they still believed some might . . . and that waiting for story prize ____ list kept getting longer and longer.

D) As a consequence, when they complained, they again and AGAIN were promised a lot of things would be "great" if they would just "wait and see."

So . . . when a list shows up that says "this is could be really cool but it will require the PtB to revise the entire setting in order to justify you to getting virtually any story time at all . . . just wait and see . . . " the diehards were, understandably, a bit skeptical that any such a choice would lead to anything "Great" for the Mantis, and they were not willing to "wait and see" any longer.