Sorry but those builds are just dumb. I cant help but shake my head at how people try to build Mon Karren.

If you have XI7 you need either 1 acc or Intel officer to hit the brace. Mon Karen is almost useless in this situation, well it will prevent reidrecting 1 point of dmg only if the defender has and decides to use contain. That costs you 8 points.

If you shoot something smalelr like a Crovette XI7 the redurect acc/intel evade, if 1 evade is left unblocked defender can use it anyway and Mon Karen does nothing again.

With every other upgrade restricting use of defense tokens MonKaren loses value. In some rare cases it may do soooomething but remember that you pay 8 points for it on top of other upgrades,

I'm not sure you are quite running the scenarios back and forth.

1. Intel Officer won't stop the brace. Intel Officer works most efficiently when you can use a smaller hit to drop the toekn but it requires a deft hand since too small of a hit and they won;t use the brace and too big and they'll use it anyway. Putting Intel Officer on the big ships is good, no argument from me, but in my experience it''s been a 50/50 where the Intel Officer has been useful since with my style of play by the time the MC80 shoots it doesn't matter if they brace or not, its a killshot.

2. In your contain example run your scenarios to completion with and without MK. If you opponent uses contain you push more damage though to the same hull facing effectively making MK a cheaper spinal armament. If they use the redirect they are only saving them self from 1 additional damage from the hull zone you targeted. Mon Karren is insurance against not rolling an accuracy. It almost operates like a pseudo accuracy.

3. Even against a corvette, MK still let's you push one more damage onto the hull zone since they have to either redirect or evade. One more damage point on a corvette is a big deal.

As stated before, The MK/XI7 combo lets you push at least 1 more damage against the majority of targets out there. 8 points might seems a little expensive for another point of damage but that is going rate, ala Spinal Armaments are 9 and EA is 10.

MK is good just not OP like everyone thought when they first saw it. NOW MK and HTT is pretty worthless...

Not just that, but in subsequent rounds of combat, missing a XI7 means that your opponent will suffer much less damage.

Damage example:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html

Example #1 - Shooting at ISDs or MC80s with Mon Karren and XI7s.

Round #1 - Let's say you roll 8 damage. Regardless of ECM or accuracy, you IO the Brace. He has no choice but to Brace and take 4 damage directly to shields. If you did 9 damage and there was a crit, not only would he be unable to Redirect, but he would also take the crit because he can't Contain.

Round #2 - Second round of combat without the Brace available. Let's say you make the same roll. He can only choose to Redirect or Contain, but since Redirect will only negate one damage because of XI7s, he wisely chooses to Contain, but eats 8 damage directly to hull. Since you IO'd the Contain, it is gone for the rest of the game.

If you don't buy XI7s with Mon Karren when shooting at a ISD-II with Redirect, GL doing solid second round damage before he MAULS you in return. You're literally looking at doing near or full damage to hull vs. doing half that because of Redirect. On a ship that's absolutely meant to do damage, and doesn't have much survivalbility once it does enter equal-brawl range of the bigger ships, you better be making every shot count.

Hero, arguing that x17s help you survive for a second shot is absurdly obtuse.

But that is exactly what you just did.

How is it obtuse? Would you rather push 8 damage onto an enemy ship or 4? Does doing 8 damage have a higher probability of killing the enemy ship before he shoots you back? Are the two not related?

O hero,

What happens if you are not playing against rebels, well then odds are pretty great that you have a non ecm target choice, in which case I can do all of that with only x17s and an accuracy. All while saving points. If you continually face rebs and ecm ok I get it, otherwise in my opinion you're throwing points away.

O hero,

What happens if you are not playing against rebels, well then odds are pretty great that you have a non ecm target choice, in which case I can do all of that with only x17s and an accuracy. All while saving points. If you continually face rebs and ecm ok I get it, otherwise in my opinion you're throwing points away.

I wasn't aware the Rebels had an ISD in the above damage example. I've been playing the wrong faction all along!

So your entire point to building a points pit is for an ISD2???? There are 26 ship variants only 9 of which have DR. Only 5 of which will take ECM with any regularity, but your not even talking about 5 out of 26 ship variants your taking about 1..... I think I'll save 8+ points to do a tiny bit less situational damage.

Because it's good to double tap? Gunnery teams is great and all (some of you guys treat it like it's gospel), but I wouldn't necessarily say it's a slam dunk upgrade for this ship (or any other). See the Steel Squadron Article about Gunnery Teams. (For what it's worth, I also like High Capacity Ion Turbines)

Mon Karren

Gunnery Team

SW-7

Medium Range monster shots. 4 damage pre-brace minimum and the Reds are gravy on top of it. All for 116 points.

Mothma MC30s, CR90s, Raiders, Nebs cant evade. Glads and medium ships wont be redirecting.

Irony.

Yes it is. I saw that right after I posted this :-) Did you have a change-of-heart / conversion?

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.
In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Now, why Mon Karren AND XI7s? Because of combat flexibility. In the example above, you clearly see the power of XI7s. However, the beauty of having to pay 14 points for the combined combo is so you can push bypass other forms of damage negation. This includes evades being able to deny double-hits, or contain from keeping crits down, or Brace AND Redirect through ECM. You pay the points for pushing big damage, that's why it costs 8 in the first place. If you don't think that's worth it, that's fine. I'm just telling you I disagree.

Oh, and what happens when you shoot at MC30cs? ****, that one accuracy isn't going to do you much good now is it when it can just Evade with redundant defense tokens?

I think we need to slow down the hyperbole train . 8 points is hardly a pit. MK is insurance just like ECM is a 7 point insurance piece. Mileage varies per player.

I like the Mon Karren title but it's just silly to use multiple accuracy type upgrades at the same time.

Yes XI7 on the Mon Karren CAN be a little better than an empty slot, especially if you IO their brace... but dude....

That means you have both Intel Officer, XI7, and Mon Karren all on the same ship. That's 13 points you don't need to spend, because the Mon Karren alone will suffice. The key here is that you've got OTHER SHIPS shooting as well, and things like XI7 and/or Intel Officer are generally better served on ships that don't already have a super awesome title for shutting down your opponent's defenses.

How bout this.... you run the Mon Karren with title and Spinal Armament.

Then you ALSO run a separate battle cruiser with XI7 and Intel Officer.

And attack with both.

I'm saying to bring x17s........ Good talk though

I think we need to slow down the hyperbole train . 8 points is hardly a pit. MK is insurance just like ECM is a 7 point insurance piece. Mileage varies per player.

Sorry I should have clarified it turns into a points pit when you add everything up GT, MK, X17, throw in another Turbo. Imo losing that 8 goes a long way.

I think we need to slow down the hyperbole train . 8 points is hardly a pit. MK is insurance just like ECM is a 7 point insurance piece. Mileage varies per player.

Sorry I should have clarified it turns into a points pit when you add everything up GT, MK, X17, throw in another Turbo. Imo losing that 8 goes a long way.

I got ya. just kind turns into a matter of perspective things again because even out of all this disagreement no one is talking about dropping the GT or XI7s. For me it's really a matter of where I can put eight points. Just as a real world real example, 8 points isn't enough of a bid around me so I might as well spend it.

I think we need to slow down the hyperbole train . 8 points is hardly a pit. MK is insurance just like ECM is a 7 point insurance piece. Mileage varies per player.

Sorry I should have clarified it turns into a points pit when you add everything up GT, MK, X17, throw in another Turbo. Imo losing that 8 goes a long way.

I got ya. just kind turns into a matter of perspective things again because even out of all this disagreement no one is talking about dropping the GT or XI7s. For me it's really a matter of where I can put eight points. Just as a real world real example, 8 points isn't enough of a bid around me so I might as well spend it.

Totally agree. to prove your point 8 points around me generally more than enough.

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Soooo, that Mon Karren title... purpose?

Oh look, were back to Mon Karren OR X17s...

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Soooo, that Mon Karren title... purpose?

Oh look, were back to Mon Karren OR X17s...

Except story time with Hero didn't look at that which is what we're talking about

I think we need to take a big step back and analyze what you want the Liberty to do in the first place. It's fast, it doesn't have a lot of defenses, it takes damage fairly easily, but it has amazing offensive capabilities.

So for a ship that will most certainly die as the game progresses, do you want to leverage its damage abilities or not? That is the question that I come to the table with. So at this point, you should either go with cheap cheap cheap, or gear it to maul whatever it shoots at.

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Soooo, that Mon Karren title... purpose?

Oh look, were back to Mon Karren OR X17s...

To punish the use of ECM.

I thought this had already been covered.

I know my experience isn't extensive. I've played maybe 20-30 battles at the table top. But not once have I encountered a fleet without ECM on at least one ship. And not once have I faced Imps without an ISD 2 (with ECM).

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Soooo, that Mon Karren title... purpose?

Oh look, were back to Mon Karren OR X17s...

To punish the use of ECM.

I thought this had already been covered.

I know my experience isn't extensive. I've played maybe 20-30 battles at the table top. But not once have I encountered a fleet without ECM on at least one ship. And not once have I faced Imps without an ISD 2 (with ECM).

Not just to punish the use of ECM, but to kill targets with multiple redundant tokens like the MC30c, or multiple types of defenses like the MKII/Gladiator, or both of the above + ECM like the ISD-II and H1.

Seriously, run the same damage scenarios again, but this time with Mon Karren. Tell me which one does more damage: MK + XI7, or MK or XI7s.

Sometimes I seriously question the intelligence of some of the people on this board. That's a pretty ahole thing to say, but holy hell we got some special kittens here.

I just had another consideration of the value of Mon Karren regarding the wording.

"While attacking a ship, the defender cannot spend more than 1 defense token."

Admonition can "discard" a defense token to cancel 1 attack die. Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't "Discard" fall under the definition of "Spending", as it pertains to the usage of defense tokens?

So, Admonition would only be able to spend the same token it just used to defend with, and would not be able to blast out those quasi useless evade tokens (in addition to the redirects).

Admonition can "discard" a defense token to cancel 1 attack die. Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't "Discard" fall under the definition of "Spending", as it pertains to the usage of defense tokens?

I just had another consideration of the value of Mon Karren regarding the wording.

"While attacking a ship, the defender cannot spend more than 1 defense token."

Admonition can "discard" a defense token to cancel 1 attack die. Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't "Discard" fall under the definition of "Spending", as it pertains to the usage of defense tokens?

So, Admonition would only be able to spend the same token it just used to defend with, and would not be able to blast out those quasi useless evade tokens (in addition to the redirects).

No.

If you read one of the many threads on Admonition, you will see this basically:

Spend =/= Discard.

Spend may result in Discard, but it is not discard.

Because under your theory - Admonition would only be able to spend the same token it just used to defend with...

That won't work either. Because you can't spend the one defense token multiple times on the one attack, either. Or spend multiple defense tokens of the same type.

Which would mean an Admonition that had been subject to an Overload Pulse would be stripped of its 8 point title, effectively... 8 point title.

You will find that Foresight and Admonition are priced the same, because they have the same net effect - Remove one Enemy Attack Dice Per Turn at the appropriate ranges.

Alright then, good to know.

I'll bite for a second.

Let's pretend you're shooting at an ISD-I, not II, and you roll an accuracy every time with Mon Karren and no XI7s.

Let's also pretend you do 6 damage every time and rolled an accuracy.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to side, you do 3 damage to front shields. He has 1 shield left from the front and 0 from the side.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side, you do 1 damage. Yeppie f'n hurray.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 1 damage.

So let's pretend again you're not stupid, and bought XI7s.

Round #1 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 4 damage to front shields, and do 1 damage to hull.

Round #2 - Accuracy the Brace, he Redirects to the other side for 1 due to XI7s, you do 5 damage to hull.

In two rounds of combat, you've done 6 damage.

TLDR: Buy XI7s to prove you passed elementary math.

Now, why Mon Karren AND XI7s? Because of combat flexibility. In the example above, you clearly see the power of XI7s. However, the beauty of having to pay 14 points for the combined combo is so you can push bypass other forms of damage negation. This includes evades being able to deny double-hits, or contain from keeping crits down, or Brace AND Redirect through ECM. You pay the points for pushing big damage, that's why it costs 8 in the first place. If you don't think that's worth it, that's fine. I'm just telling you I disagree.

Oh, and what happens when you shoot at MC30cs? ****, that one accuracy isn't going to do you much good now is it when it can just Evade with redundant defense tokens?

Lets take your Isd 1 example from above but actually apply it to the conversation.

MK with x17

Turn 1

6 damage redirect 1 take 1 card front shields gone.

Turn 2

6 damage on front use contain take 6 cards.

Just x17

O wait it's the same thing.

Now lets address other ships, such I'd what I was doing in the first place, mc30 same dice assumptions, as well as successful evades

MK w X17

Turn 1

5 damage after evade. Shields gone two hull left

Turn 2

5 damage after evade and dead.

X17

Turn 1

5 damage after evade, redirect 1, front shields gone one card.

Turn 2

5 Damage after evade, redirect 1, and its dead. Same end result.

Obviously the mc30's title will effect this as well as commander, but we are getting way to specific then imo.

So again 8 points spent for nothing.

I'm not saying there aren't isolated cases just to me it makes no sense in game that there are so many different builds and combos to spend 8 points on something that will only help rarely. And you could simply just shoot something else most of the time.

I'm not saying there aren't isolated cases just to me it makes no sense in game that there are so many different builds and combos to spend 8 points on something that will only help rarely. And you could simply just shoot something else most of the time.

And yet, for the ISD-I example, you bank on having that accuracy, or else MK + XI7 have a much better result.

And yet, if this was an ISD-II or H1 with ECM, the results are not even close.

And yet, when shooting at Glads or MKIIs, having MK + XI7s does much more vs. just having XI7s.

So no, I don't agree with your assessment at all. Also, when shooting at an MC30c, if they're allowed to Evade and Redir, your damage will be a consistent (assuming re-rolling or completely negating double hits).

MK + XI7 if you want to push damage, end. Your specific examples of the XI7 being the only upgrade you need excludes about like 70% of the meta. So yeah, hard pass, argument dismissed.