I am amazed at the possibilities that Twilight offers FFG. I request that more be made with the IP. RPGs, Books, Side games (eg LCG). The universe is very rich for ideas. Just hoping Twilight at least gets a collectors edition like War of the Rings did.

I love Twilight Imperium as well but I'd rather see them keep it focused on this game, with a new revised rule book/edition or another expansion.

I doubt I would be very interested in a fragmented TI universe product line.

If FFG took the approach that Grim does and used a more story driven game I think TI could be just as great as Dark Heresy. The LCG could be the events leading up to the war and the board game. Like Game of Thrones LCG.

I disagree with revised rules. For me TI 3rd is one of the best written games by FFG. I have a feeling it has to do with the fact that the CEO pretty much designed it. The expansion added the rest of the desired ideas and fixes.

Yes, the rules are so streamlined and unambiguous that they have an 11 page FAQ/errata and still get rules questions.

No need to be snide. I have not had a problem with the rules. Maybe the problem is your brain . I have been playing it since release and haven't needed the errata except for the misprints. That is all. The wording on the cards and in the rules seem clear to me. To be fair maybe I am playing wrong. It really doesn't matter to me as long as the players are having fun.

I still do not see what the clarity of the rules has to do with expanding the property to roleplaying or card game. Don't they have a side team for the rule questions?

You may very well be playing it correctly, though you could just as easily be playing parts of it very wrong if you think there is no ambiguity in the rulebook at all. The most obvious example of a glaring deficiency in the rulebook is the order of resolution of pre-combat effects.

They don't have a separate rules team. Corey answers pretty much all the rules questions.

They really do need a rules team.

blarknob said:

Why? Corey does a great job of answering questions, and because it's one guy doing it his rulings are consistent. He worked on the game, and listens to opinions when making his rulings, 99% of which are spot on.

Rules team = replacing Corey = pointless

Or Corey could just be the head lead for the rules team. Think of him like the lead artist or something for a team. Having a rules team wouldn't mean Corey gets replaced.

Ok true, but my point is that we don't need a rules team. Corey does the rulings just fine by himself - and if anything, he already has the best rules team : us, the players. We're the ones who play the game most, and we're the ones to tell him when a rule he makes is wrong (note : this is very rare).

If anything, all having a "rules team" would do would be to slow down the decision making process for no reason.

You didn't really get what I meant by rules team at all.

It is a group separate from the designers(so they don't approach it with pre-conceptions) in charge of the consistency clarity and accuracy of the game rules. They wouldn't just be for twilight but all of ffg's games.

Relying on the players for rules clarification is a horrible idea, which would lead to a fractured mess without any authority. The players are more like testers who bring issues to light but should not be consulted on how to fix the problems.

I know this model is used for large CCGs and fantasy flight probably doesn't have the resources of a company like hasbro but it works and would really help bring their game rules up to par with the rest of the production quality of their games.

Blarknob, I completely disagree but to be honest I'd rather enjoy my Christmas than argue with you.

Going back to the OP's topic, I'm one who has also been arguing in other forums for an expansion of the TI product line. This is a fine universecertainly more to my tastes than the Warhammer 40K one which I find way too grim to hang out in for very long!and much could be made of it. A TI LCG or a tactical battle game (maybe using the Dune game mechanics or a Tide of Iron approach), or even a Runebound adventure game-type or something completely originalany of these would be welcome. FFG has creative, innovative talent in its design and development teams, and it started out its life with an outstanding product, TI. It doesn't need to become a GW clone or ride the coattails of Warhammer 40K or Fantasy. I don't mind them doing GW reprints like Horus Heresyheck, I really enjoyed that game when it came out the first time and will certainly enjoy FFG's remakebut I don't think they should neglect their own legacy and heritage. They are beginning to rely too much on licenses and not enough on their own IP. I find that sad given how great the TI universe is and how much potential it holds.

possumman said:

So you are saying you are fine with being paid to play test a game? You would rather still have a product line where the paying customers have to do extra work? Let's look at a company that takes its time on products and doesn't force release dates in Blizzard Entertainment. They don't release until the product is tested enough. Sure patches have to be created later, but they are free to update the game with. I guess you are also fine with knowing that I have the latest reprint of Twilight with all of the errors, that you and other customers discovered, fixed? Come on man you cannot be serious? Many of the errors that I have discovered in Twilight Imperium are ones that a rules team would have caught.

I do not doubt Corey's ability to work on the rules. As the designer of my favorite board games, I have the utmost respect for him. But I do not think Corey would turn down help if he could get it.

Blarknob makes a great point. Then you just criticize it with a closed mind and tell him he is wrong, but that you don't care to explain why.

These other guys and myself would love to see the Twilight Imperium universe fleshed out more. I am sure Mr. Petersen has a whole background and character rich histories to go with it.

I am not taking sides in this instead I'm just playing devil's advocate. I just feel you should explain why you disagree. I personally am curious, because when it comes to marketing strategies I love to get both sides of the argument. Maybe there is something you know that Blarknob or others with his train of thought have missed.

It is after the holiday now, so maybe you would care to elaborate. This message comes across nasty but I ensure you Possumman that I carry no negative tone in my message. I just am curious is all.

Before I start - I apologise for my previous post if it appeared too blunt.

Ok, so here's where we get to a point I hadn't thought about : pre-release playtesting. As it turns out, a rules team was employed for some of the SE expansion playtesting, and they made a great contribution. I know for a fact that one of them made huge differences to the way Assembly and Bureaucracy work (two of the most important cards in the game), as well as discussing multiple issues, e.g. space mines, etc etc. What I'm trying to say is, they made a huge difference to the way the expansion worked.

And you know what? The playtest team was made up of players from the FFG forums*. They used players of the game to decide how the expansion should turn out. Why? These are the people that play it every day! These are the people that are the most experienced at playing, know how it works, the subtler strategies of the game, which rulings are likely to lead to loopholes. They knew what needed changing, and they changed it. They saw the weaker sections of TI3, and altered them.

So why change that? Why not have the same people who helped design the expansion, the same people who play it every day, along with a load of their TI3 playing friends, do the FAQ corrections? In the same way that they could see what needed changing about TI3, they can see what needs changing about the FAQ. For example, we emailed Corey a while ago to ask him to remove Naalu's retreat ability from the list of "pre-combat" activities. I forget exactly why now, but it was something a rules team would never have picked up on. It was only through playing the game that it turned out that it lead to inconsistencies.

When you have a bunch of intelligent, dedicated players who are willing to do the rules for you, you don't need to employ a rules team. They are the rules team.

However, we do agree on one point - playtesting should have been more extensive, for both TI3 and SE. The playtest team didn't get to witness every aspect of the game, and (understandably) a few things got added/removed/altered after they finished, which is a shame. So yes, definitely more playtesting would have been better - but I'd have the players themselves do it any day of the week.

* (Well the ti3wiki forums, formerly the FFG forums. Mike_Evans is one of them, and I know he posts on both, so there's a name for you to recognise.)

possumman said:

Just to be clear I agree that community members should be used for play-testing, they are very good at finding bugs in the rules. What I don't think they should be used for is actually writing the rules. That is what the rules team is for, taking player input on bugs in the rules, and patching the rulebook in a clear and consistent manner so that we have a consistent and exact rulebook.

I think the players shouldn't write the rules for the same reason football players should not ref their own games.

blarknob said:

While this is true, as a high school football referee, I should point out that the various high school coaches DO have input into rule changes every year. They aren't the final say by any means, but many rule changes that get implemented in high school football comes about because of feedback from coaches across the country. There is a rules comittee that makes the final decisions, though, but they don't operate without feedback.

sigmazero13 said:

Just one of many reasons that no one watches High School football.

broken said:

I'm not sure how that has anything to do with it, especially considering the NCAA and NFL also have rules committees which function in a very similar way. The Coaches (and the Players Association, I'm sure, in NFL) have input on rules changes at those levels, too.

It was a worthy attempt to make a point though, even if the point was invalid

I didn't actually intend for it to be a serious point.

Hence my sticky-outy tongue emoticon = (These dumb forums don't automatically convert them to nifty pictures). I use that emoticon for "silliness"

You guys are kind of dragging this off topic...

All I wanted was to request a more fleshed out Twilight Imperium Intellectual Property. The short histories on the army sheets and the opening stories in the rules. Let me know way more could be made out of this game. I can kind of tell Mr. Petersen has a universe with characters and histories in his mind. Every races background is so diferent from the others.