so we have a thread that says the Interdictor makes the Empire OP, and we have this one saying the rebels got the upper hand.

I guess that means we have a balanced game folks.

Yup! As so many have noted on other threads, I love the diversity of opinion and experiences. It just shows how varied, balanced and great this game is!

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Well, Lyr was responding to the OP, who was giving a Wave by Wave account of how he perceived the meta had changed. He jumped right to Wave 2 with Rhymer and the Demo, but weren't Wave by Wave after that.

That is the context I was referring to by taking each Wave on its own.

I also agree with Lyr that I don't think that the Empire alone dominates the entire meta. Yes, both Demo and Rhymer are very powerful - and they aren't alone. They are the most iconic, but I feel like Rebels have more competitive variety. My area had a tournament a bit before our Regionals, it was pretty small, I think 10 players, and I was the only Imperial player. Sometimes we get a lot of Imps that show up, but I'd settle our population as probably 30-35% Imperial.

You do realize that 10 Armada players are close to the equivalent to 20 X-Wing right?

No, I guess I don't realize that particular comparison. I don't play X Wing.

So what about it?

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Well, Lyr was responding to the OP, who was giving a Wave by Wave account of how he perceived the meta had changed. He jumped right to Wave 2 with Rhymer and the Demo, but weren't Wave by Wave after that.

That is the context I was referring to by taking each Wave on its own.

I also agree with Lyr that I don't think that the Empire alone dominates the entire meta. Yes, both Demo and Rhymer are very powerful - and they aren't alone. They are the most iconic, but I feel like Rebels have more competitive variety. My area had a tournament a bit before our Regionals, it was pretty small, I think 10 players, and I was the only Imperial player. Sometimes we get a lot of Imps that show up, but I'd settle our population as probably 30-35% Imperial.

You do realize that 10 Armada players are close to the equivalent to 20 X-Wing right?

No, I guess I don't realize that particular comparison. I don't play X Wing.

So what about it?

Just means that 10 people for Armada is not a small tournament in the grand scheme of things. It is actually really good!

I don't play X-Wing either but we still take up twice the space and time.

Oh. OK. That's a pretty small tournament around here. I do realize we have a good sized community.

I do realize that X Wing is half the size, and has shorter round times... But I don't usually compare Armada turnouts to other game systems as a matter of course.

Oh. OK. That's a pretty small tournament around here. I do realize we have a good sized community.

I do realize that X Wing is half the size, and has shorter round times... But I don't usually compare Armada turnouts to other game systems as a matter of course.

Makes sense. . . you get more than 10 players to tournaments?!!! I want that kind of community. . . what is your secret!

Makes sense. . . you get more than 10 players to tournaments?!!! I want that kind of community. . . what is your secret!

I'm sure it's largely a symptom of just being at the Flagship store. Prize support is always ridiculous. Plus, we have a really great community organizer, Ian, that has worked really hard talking to all the different stores in the metro area and really plugging the game. We have weekly game nights at two different stores.

So kind of a perfect storm of positive factors, I think.

Makes sense. . . you get more than 10 players to tournaments?!!! I want that kind of community. . . what is your secret!

I'm sure it's largely a symptom of just being at the Flagship store. Prize support is always ridiculous. Plus, we have a really great community organizer, Ian, that has worked really hard talking to all the different stores in the metro area and really plugging the game. We have weekly game nights at two different stores.

So kind of a perfect storm of positive factors, I think.

Yeah, we're the only major metro area around. There are a couple of smaller cities nearby, I'm not sure how their communities are, definitely not as good.

Trizzo basically decomposes the argument as usual. Both sides have access to a lot of powerful options.

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Yes. . . CaribbeanNinja's variant played by Cninja during the Faction Vassal tournament.

My worst loss ever. I was so out played! My trap did not work but it helped me develope the Wave 3 variant that can properly trap the Clonisher

So, you got crushed by Clonisher (like I did), but you won't support the idea that Imperials had the upper hand in Wave 2? (not that ZOMG IMPERIALS PEW PEW), just that they may have had the upper hand?

No, I don't.

I think the winners of wave 2 were the TRC90, Demolisher, Rieekan, and Rhymer. Many people who won a lot had at least one of these or a combination of them.

Even losing to CNinja's style of clonisher I knew that it would not work that well the second time against me and now with Slicer Beam Flotilla's I think that it is marginalized. You will get hurt from it sure but it wont be a blood bath any longer I think.

How do flotillas have relevance as to who was the winner of wave II?

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Yes. . . CaribbeanNinja's variant played by Cninja during the Faction Vassal tournament.

My worst loss ever. I was so out played! My trap did not work but it helped me develope the Wave 3 variant that can properly trap the Clonisher

So, you got crushed by Clonisher (like I did), but you won't support the idea that Imperials had the upper hand in Wave 2? (not that ZOMG IMPERIALS PEW PEW), just that they may have had the upper hand?

No, I don't.

I think the winners of wave 2 were the TRC90, Demolisher, Rieekan, and Rhymer. Many people who won a lot had at least one of these or a combination of them.

Even losing to CNinja's style of clonisher I knew that it would not work that well the second time against me and now with Slicer Beam Flotilla's I think that it is marginalized. You will get hurt from it sure but it wont be a blood bath any longer I think.

How do flotillas have relevance as to who was the winner of wave II?

Against a Clonisher build I will be pulling every high-speed anti Demolisher trick I know. In wave 2 I could equal the Clonisher in activations so even going second I could prevent a last to first Demolisher move. Having tried the trap, seeing what did not work and what did, I have a rough counter but it likely leads to either a draw or a minor win.

With the new points system, even losing a TRC90 still makes the game a 6-5 so that would be my goal. If I can't poke Demo away with TRC's I might do it against the Raiders.

As I stated, now with Slicer Beam Flotillas, Countering Clonisher becomes easier.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Also, let's not forget that the biggest Armada tournament to date for Wave 2 (Gencon 2016) was just won by Imps in an Imp on Imp final match-up, while the highest placing Rebel fleet came in only 5th.

Does this mean Rebs were incapable of winning? Of course not, and indeed some Regionals were won by Rebels. Rebels also won Origins (though it was about the same size as most Regionals-22 players--if that matters to anyone). But one cannot deny the trend that Imperials seemed to be over-represented in Top Spots during the Wave 2 tournament season, and if this isn't indicative of an 'advantage' than I don't know what would be. Furthermore, even basic theorizing can demonstrate how far above the power curve both Demolisher and Major Rhymer are in the ways they amp up offensive damage output and alleviate range restrictions and maneuvering. Also, it might be worth noting that Imps had a slew of viable Admirals they were drawing from during Wave 2 tourneys, with Motti, Screed, and even Ozzel and Vader all headlining top fleets. Meanwhile, Rebels basically were relegated to only Reikaan, and while plenty of Rebels were running Ackbar and Mothma neither had hardly any presence in the Top 4.

At this point, if anyone questions whether or not Imperials were innately advantaged during Wave 2, I have to question if they truly understand the game. We might disagree about the extent to which Imperials were innately advantaged, but I don't think there is room to say that they were not advantaged at all.

Maybe I will dump this into another thread for a longer conversatio , but slicer tools doesn't really do jack agai st Demo. That Demolisher should have stacked a nav token on turn one if they are at all awake and didn't butcher fleet deployment.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Also, let's not forget that the biggest Armada tournament to date for Wave 2 (Gencon 2016) was just won by Imps in an Imp on Imp final match-up, while the highest placing Rebel fleet came in only 5th.

Does this mean Rebs were incapable of winning? Of course not, and indeed some Regionals were won by Rebels. Rebels also won Origins (though it was about the same size as most Regionals-22 players--if that matters to anyone). But one cannot deny the trend that Imperials seemed to be over-represented in Top Spots during the Wave 2 tournament season, and if this isn't indicative of an 'advantage' than I don't know what would be. Furthermore, even basic theorizing can demonstrate how far above the power curve both Demolisher and Major Rhymer are in the ways they amp up offensive damage output and alleviate range restrictions and maneuvering. Also, it might be worth noting that Imps had a slew of viable Admirals they were drawing from during Wave 2 tourneys, with Motti, Screed, and even Ozzel and Vader all headlining top fleets. Meanwhile, Rebels basically were relegated to only Reikaan, and while plenty of Rebels were running Ackbar and Mothma neither had hardly any presence in the Top 4.

At this point, if anyone questions whether or not Imperials were innately advantaged during Wave 2, I have to question if they truly understand the game. We might disagree about the extent to which Imperials were innately advantaged, but I don't think there is room to say that they were not advantaged at all.

Good post :>

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Also, let's not forget that the biggest Armada tournament to date for Wave 2 (Gencon 2016) was just won by Imps in an Imp on Imp final match-up, while the highest placing Rebel fleet came in only 5th.

Does this mean Rebs were incapable of winning? Of course not, and indeed some Regionals were won by Rebels. Rebels also won Origins (though it was about the same size as most Regionals-22 players--if that matters to anyone). But one cannot deny the trend that Imperials seemed to be over-represented in Top Spots during the Wave 2 tournament season, and if this isn't indicative of an 'advantage' than I don't know what would be. Furthermore, even basic theorizing can demonstrate how far above the power curve both Demolisher and Major Rhymer are in the ways they amp up offensive damage output and alleviate range restrictions and maneuvering. Also, it might be worth noting that Imps had a slew of viable Admirals they were drawing from during Wave 2 tourneys, with Motti, Screed, and even Ozzel and Vader all headlining top fleets. Meanwhile, Rebels basically were relegated to only Reikaan, and while plenty of Rebels were running Ackbar and Mothma neither had hardly any presence in the Top 4.

At this point, if anyone questions whether or not Imperials were innately advantaged during Wave 2, I have to question if they truly understand the game. We might disagree about the extent to which Imperials were innately advantaged, but I don't think there is room to say that they were not advantaged at all.

You missed Dodonna in the top 4 but it was marginal.

I cant really argue with your assertion since it is not wrong and playing imperials is easy not to mention the side most chosen I believe.

It is weird, my area was dominated by rebels and still is while there are for more Imperial players. . .

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Indeed, drawn from the wonderfully well organized and fairly extensive results thread and the trends discussed within.

Have I looked at the results again in the past few months? Nope. Did I run ANOVA tests on the results to compare between playgroups? Did I look to see if p-values and alpha values indicated relatively confident statistical significance? Did I thoroughly consider implications of Type-1 and Type-2 errors and set up tournaments accordingly to test within acceptable parameters? Of course not. But it is far and away the best data we could hope to have for a relatively small game like Armada with relatively infrequent tournaments.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Indeed, drawn from the wonderfully well organized and fairly extensive results thread and the trends discussed within.

Have I looked at the results again in the past few months? Nope. Did I run ANOVA tests on the results to compare between playgroups? Did I look to see if p-values and alpha values indicated relatively confident statistical significance? Did I thoroughly consider implications of Type-1 and Type-2 errors and set up tournaments accordingly to test within acceptable parameters? Of course not. But it is far and away the best data we could hope to have for a relatively small game like Armada with relatively infrequent tournaments.

But Shmitty's data did show that the tide was turning toward Rebels.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Indeed, drawn from the wonderfully well organized and fairly extensive results thread and the trends discussed within.

Have I looked at the results again in the past few months? Nope. Did I run ANOVA tests on the results to compare between playgroups? Did I look to see if p-values and alpha values indicated relatively confident statistical significance? Did I thoroughly consider implications of Type-1 and Type-2 errors and set up tournaments accordingly to test within acceptable parameters? Of course not. But it is far and away the best data we could hope to have for a relatively small game like Armada with relatively infrequent tournaments.

But Shmitty's data did show that the tide was turning toward Rebels.

Oh? Please elaborate. I'm genuinely interested how you came to this conclusion based on the data shown.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Indeed, drawn from the wonderfully well organized and fairly extensive results thread and the trends discussed within.

Have I looked at the results again in the past few months? Nope. Did I run ANOVA tests on the results to compare between playgroups? Did I look to see if p-values and alpha values indicated relatively confident statistical significance? Did I thoroughly consider implications of Type-1 and Type-2 errors and set up tournaments accordingly to test within acceptable parameters? Of course not. But it is far and away the best data we could hope to have for a relatively small game like Armada with relatively infrequent tournaments.

But Shmitty's data did show that the tide was turning toward Rebels.

Oh? Please elaborate. I'm genuinely interested how you came to this conclusion based on the data shown.

The Imperials were having comparatively less success by the end of the season that they were having at the start-middle, perhaps?

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Yup, guess you did.

It's in the data, where Imps made up ~80% of the Top 4 lists during Regionals despite only making up about 60% of the overall field.

Did you perform statistical tests to see if these results are representative enough to give you this conclusion?

I think maybe your sample size was too small and possibly the shift falls within random error.

Maybe but much of it was likely taken from Shmitty's data

Indeed, drawn from the wonderfully well organized and fairly extensive results thread and the trends discussed within.

Have I looked at the results again in the past few months? Nope. Did I run ANOVA tests on the results to compare between playgroups? Did I look to see if p-values and alpha values indicated relatively confident statistical significance? Did I thoroughly consider implications of Type-1 and Type-2 errors and set up tournaments accordingly to test within acceptable parameters? Of course not. But it is far and away the best data we could hope to have for a relatively small game like Armada with relatively infrequent tournaments.

But Shmitty's data did show that the tide was turning toward Rebels.

Oh? Please elaborate. I'm genuinely interested how you came to this conclusion based on the data shown.

The Imperials were having comparatively less success by the end of the season that they were having at the start-middle, perhaps?

Perhaps, but that can also mean caliber of players participating, % of those players playing Rebels vs. Imperials (Rebel dominant meta), early success of Imperials being studied and then countered by Rebel generals, or just plain luck.

I don't think we can safely say for sure that they already have.. especially when they're also in the same wave.

The thing is, we can assign all of those variables to initial Imperial Success too.. I mean, was it just luck, good matchups, etc...

If its not definitive through trends for one side, then its not definitive through trends to the other...

If it can be applied in trend to one side, then it can be applied to trend to the other...

I mean, I know you work more for statistics and trends than I do... But dismissing the mere possibility because there are other factors involved seems un-scientific to me, unless those factors are applied equally to all of the statistics.

So I guess my point is, its either a trend, or its nebulous - can't really ascribe it to either side without more variables being defined.

I was just going to say that I usually eliminate the opposition by underhanded means. It's the most efficient really. Does kinda kill a community though. Might need to work on that part.....

I was just going to say that I usually eliminate the opposition by underhanded means. It's the most efficient really. Does kinda kill a community though. Might need to work on that part.....

If I told you once, I've told you a thousand times....

Necromancy, man.

Solves that problem quick-smart.

Well. Not really smart.

Really, Really Dumb.

But they go through the Motions, at least.