Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Invalid word combination.

please use either ''must have'' or the contraction of same; ''must've''

you cannot be a true imperial untill you are literate.

This probably could of gone w/o bein' post. Jus' sayin', man.

(And literacy is the ability to read. Considering that Lyraeus takes part in an internet forum, I think we can conclude with relative safety that he is literate. I guess you never know, he might hire someone to read the posts to him, and then he dictates responses, but that doesn't seem super likely. You should of choose a better werd.)

This is why we can't have nice things!

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Stop it. You know they did. Demolisher and Rhymer were both run-away meta.

Both of whom are Wave 1.

Meanwhile, in Wave 1, the winner of "Best overall ship:" goes to the Assault Frigate, while winner of the "Best overall squadron:" goes to the A Wing.

....

Right, but Demo and Rhymer still reigned in and across Wave 2.

Agreed with you on Assault Frigate, but, unless you're restricting to non-unique stuff, I'd say Rhymer for best overall Squadron.

But they are both Wave 1 units. They can dominate past their introduction, but neither of them are the best Wave 2 unit because neither of them are Wave 2 units.

Rhymer is the best unique. Not the best overall, in Wave 1. He's extremely good for sure, and he really helps the Imps along with their extremely sh*tty basic squadrons - but he's only one squadron. A Wings are nuts. Cheap, speed 5, Counter 2, 4 hull, black battery die. They were very good, and especially good at tying up Rhymerballs.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Whoever wins.....we lose.

Wait, that was Aliens versus Predator. Crap man, I got nothing on this one.

Haha, more like whoever wins, we win more because we get more product!

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Stop it. You know they did. Demolisher and Rhymer were both run-away meta.

Both of whom are Wave 1.

Meanwhile, in Wave 1, the winner of "Best overall ship:" goes to the Assault Frigate, while winner of the "Best overall squadron:" goes to the A Wing.

....

Right, but Demo and Rhymer still reigned in and across Wave 2.

Agreed with you on Assault Frigate, but, unless you're restricting to non-unique stuff, I'd say Rhymer for best overall Squadron.

But they are both Wave 1 units. They can dominate past their introduction, but neither of them are the best Wave 2 unit because neither of them are Wave 2 units.

Rhymer is the best unique. Not the best overall, in Wave 1. He's extremely good for sure, and he really helps the Imps along with their extremely sh*tty basic squadrons - but he's only one squadron. A Wings are nuts. Cheap, speed 5, Counter 2, 4 hull, black battery die. They were very good, and especially good at tying up Rhymerballs.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

It was sarcasm on my side. I have watched many rebel players triumphed over the Imperials in wave 2.

Funny, I think wave 3&4 both helped level the playing field because the Imperials were dominating the tournament scene, but whether the factions are equal is going to be subjective and dependent on local players. I mean if your area has a Rebel player that is just **** good it will appear as if the Rebels have the advantage when in fact it very well is the player's skill winning the day. But in fact the Imperials have been ruling the tournament scene on the large scale.

Rhymer is amazing and if FFG doesn't nerf it, which they most likely won't, there is nothing the new releases will be able to do to make it worse. FFG will just have to release a squadron that can compete with Rhymer for the Rebels but then the Imperial players will complain about the new ship being broken. So around and around this issue will go when FFG should have play tested Rhymer a little more. Problem is designers can not foresee the Meta's ability to abuse rules to gain the advantage in all areas, so they do their best.

But with Wave 5 coming and Hera leading my squadrons of X-Wings I will feel less bothered by the Rhymer Ball. (When there is a well known Nickname for a model's build there is a good chance it was not vetted fully.)

I suggest a new strategy. Let Lyraeus win.

::grin::

I suggest a new strategy. Let Lyraeus win.

::grin::

HAHHAHAHA Trying to take my fun out of the game are you?

No, he just wants you to STOP PULLING PEOPLES ARMS OUT OF THEIR SOCKETS.

GOOD GRIEF, MAN!

IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?!

I suggest a new strategy. Let Lyraeus win.

::grin::

HAHHAHAHA Trying to take my fun out of the game are you?

I mostly try to erode the human soul......and the X-Wing Forum. I actually LIKE you.....

It's not that the Rebs are getting bette. It must be remembered that the Rebels have one enemy, whereas the Empire have to bring order to the whole galaxy and have the industrial might to do it. The Imps have various enemies being differing Scum factions as well as the Rebs.

That means the Imp ships are always going to be 'all rounders' and be ready with low cost smaller ships, and high grade impressive big craft to strike fear and awe into the enemy.

The ISD is best sitting back at red/blue distance looking awesome and being cool.

It's not that the Rebs are getting bette. It must be remembered that the Rebels have one enemy, whereas the Empire have to bring order to the whole galaxy and have the industrial might to do it. The Imps have various enemies being differing Scum factions as well as the Rebs.

That means the Imp ships are always going to be 'all rounders' and be ready with low cost smaller ships, and high grade impressive big craft to strike fear and awe into the enemy.

The ISD is best sitting back at red/blue distance looking awesome and being cool.

The tide is NOT turning.

I'm starting to see Rebel fighters becoming super tough with 3/4. I'm having a tough time building an effective screen to a Jan X Wing setup.

Past that I know nothing.

No, he just wants you to STOP PULLING PEOPLES ARMS OUT OF THEIR SOCKETS.

GOOD GRIEF, MAN!

IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?!

*sullenly* Yes. . . Yes it is.

I suggest a new strategy. Let Lyraeus win.

::grin::

HAHHAHAHA Trying to take my fun out of the game are you?

I mostly try to erode the human soul......and the X-Wing Forum. I actually LIKE you.....

Hahahaha, fair enough. The X-Wing forums is pretty bad without much help though. . .

The jury is out in my book. If you've got one very strong player in a community that favors one side, then it can look really skewed toward that side. Then you visit another community and you see someone do something with the opposing side's units that you hadn't previously considered.

Every ship has strengths and weaknesses, and the task of the great player is to utilize those strengths and minimize those weaknesses.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Well, Lyr was responding to the OP, who was giving a Wave by Wave account of how he perceived the meta had changed. He jumped right to Wave 2 with Rhymer and the Demo, but weren't Wave by Wave after that.

That is the context I was referring to by taking each Wave on its own.

I also agree with Lyr that I don't think that the Empire alone dominates the entire meta. Yes, both Demo and Rhymer are very powerful - and they aren't alone. They are the most iconic, but I feel like Rebels have more competitive variety. My area had a tournament a bit before our Regionals, it was pretty small, I think 10 players, and I was the only Imperial player. Sometimes we get a lot of Imps that show up, but I'd settle our population as probably 30-35% Imperial.

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Well, Lyr was responding to the OP, who was giving a Wave by Wave account of how he perceived the meta had changed. He jumped right to Wave 2 with Rhymer and the Demo, but weren't Wave by Wave after that.

That is the context I was referring to by taking each Wave on its own.

I also agree with Lyr that I don't think that the Empire alone dominates the entire meta. Yes, both Demo and Rhymer are very powerful - and they aren't alone. They are the most iconic, but I feel like Rebels have more competitive variety. My area had a tournament a bit before our Regionals, it was pretty small, I think 10 players, and I was the only Imperial player. Sometimes we get a lot of Imps that show up, but I'd settle our population as probably 30-35% Imperial.

You do realize that 10 Armada players are close to the equivalent to 20 X-Wing right?

Oh, I think I see what you're saying. That wasn't the context under which I was responding to Lyr, though.

I took Lyr's comment as (sarcasm/rhetoric aside) : "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage of all releases to date in/by wave 2."

I think you read it as "The imperials did not have the overall total sum of the advantage in a comparison of just wave 2 releases."

Is that right?

Well, Lyr was responding to the OP, who was giving a Wave by Wave account of how he perceived the meta had changed. He jumped right to Wave 2 with Rhymer and the Demo, but weren't Wave by Wave after that.

That is the context I was referring to by taking each Wave on its own.

I also agree with Lyr that I don't think that the Empire alone dominates the entire meta. Yes, both Demo and Rhymer are very powerful - and they aren't alone. They are the most iconic, but I feel like Rebels have more competitive variety. My area had a tournament a bit before our Regionals, it was pretty small, I think 10 players, and I was the only Imperial player. Sometimes we get a lot of Imps that show up, but I'd settle our population as probably 30-35% Imperial.

I think Schmitty's data has better overall value, though. Take my area, for example. In the last couple tournaments, the top couple players (myself included) played and won with, rebels. This doesn't mean that I think / thought rebels were stronger in or before wave 2. On the contrary, I hated Demolisher, and I wanted to punish everyone for taking the easy path with that OP title (I'm being a little exaggeratory here). But I was convinced that the best way to drive it out of the pervasive meta was to beat it as soundly and convincingly and as many times as I could. I don't know that I succeeded, of course, but i did feel I was doing my part. Ultimately, I won because I only fought against 2 Demolishers in 6 games, but I was profoundly influenced by Clonisher's build, and figured I'd see at least a couple guys using it. I was not worried about Rieekan.

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Yes. . . CaribbeanNinja's variant played by Cninja during the Faction Vassal tournament.

My worst loss ever. I was so out played! My trap did not work but it helped me develope the Wave 3 variant that can properly trap the Clonisher

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Yes. . . CaribbeanNinja's variant played by Cninja during the Faction Vassal tournament.

My worst loss ever. I was so out played! My trap did not work but it helped me develope the Wave 3 variant that can properly trap the Clonisher

So, you got crushed by Clonisher (like I did), but you won't support the idea that Imperials had the upper hand in Wave 2? (not that ZOMG IMPERIALS PEW PEW), just that they may have had the upper hand?

Lyr, did you ever play Clonisher with Dodonna the Oppressor?

Yes. . . CaribbeanNinja's variant played by Cninja during the Faction Vassal tournament.

My worst loss ever. I was so out played! My trap did not work but it helped me develope the Wave 3 variant that can properly trap the Clonisher

So, you got crushed by Clonisher (like I did), but you won't support the idea that Imperials had the upper hand in Wave 2? (not that ZOMG IMPERIALS PEW PEW), just that they may have had the upper hand?

No, I don't.

I think the winners of wave 2 were the TRC90, Demolisher, Rieekan, and Rhymer. Many people who won a lot had at least one of these or a combination of them.

Even losing to CNinja's style of clonisher I knew that it would not work that well the second time against me and now with Slicer Beam Flotilla's I think that it is marginalized. You will get hurt from it sure but it wont be a blood bath any longer I think.

Is nobody going to address that almost everything the OP said is wrong?

Granted, in wave II the Imps had the upper hand with the Gladiator. But the fighter pack was already leaning towards the Rebels (except of Rhymer of course). Then the MC30 and 80 were a ship with much better versatility than anything the Imps can throw at them. Granted, the ISD has more raw firepower but it is way too focused on its front arc, and the Raider is a smart small ship but it lacks the real punch against ships and can be easily outmaneuvered if the Rebel ship remains in red dice range.

* The fighter pack was Rebel leaning? No it wasn't. Rebel fighters are outclassed in pretty much every area. Especially heroes.

* The MC30 is not more diverse than "anything the Imps can throw at it". Certainlly not a Gladiator with the trimmings for a similar style ship.

* The ISD both a better carrier and brawler. I fail to see a lack of diversity. Numerically the Rebels have "more" choice but Imps can build what they want.

Then in Wave III the GR75s is easily outclasses the Gozantis. Especially the support variant is extremely useful while the Gozantis are just not strong enough to make a big difference in the battle. They ARE good but they need some very specific circumstances to operate properly while a GR75 support can just hang back and distribute goodies all along the fleet.

* Really? Easily? Besides Bright Hope they are equal in terms of sustainability.

* Neither floatilla can make a big difference in battle as in "I explode stuff on my own". They both provide fleet support. That is their role. One does not do it better than the other. One is just a tad bit cheaper.

* A GOZ can hang back and provide the exact same amount of goodies to the fleet that a GR does...GOZ however make better Boosted Comms Carriers due to Tarkin/Token Officers. The only missing piece would be a Leia style effect. But instead you can put Issard, Titus on a Goz for other kinds of information/effects, so they are hardly lacking.

Wave IV increased the Rebel lead once again. The Interdictor is good to confuse your enemy but looking at it as a warship it just falls short. The Liberty on the other hand is basically a Rebel Star Destroyer, and it gives now two big ships you can build your fleet around.

*Maybe it falls short as a warhship because it isn't a warship and wasn't meant to be...you can't compare apples to oranges

And what we see from Wave V seems to trip the balance even more. The Phoenix Home has just too much of a punch on its forward arc for such a small ship. Sato seems outright the best admiral in the game, giving two dices of any color... Crazy! Meanwhile the ILC is something... well.... It's not a proper, nor a proper Star Destroyer, it seems to fall short on every front.

* A Raider front arc (which you trashed) is "too much punch" for a small ship? So what is it then? To much or to little?

* Sato seems like the best Admiral in the game to people who buy into hype and don't fully think their combos through. Two dice of any colour?! Crazy?! Yeah, but it's not just that is it. He is the most conditional Admiral in the game and the most expensive. At minimum for him to work, on just one ship, it will cost you 42 points, 52 for two, 62 for three...you can also loose the ability to use his ability when he is still on the board

And if they take the specs from the EU sourcebooks then the E-Wings will be superior to X-Wings in every aspect (if they take the books as source though then the E-Wings will be worthless) and in contrast the TIE/D will be a superb fighter but impossibly expensive, not really worth to buy.

* Yeah not really worth to buy I agree. Not like i should wait for more information or anything

Despite so called Imp dominance Rebel players have taken down large events and many regionals. To my knowledge some rebel data (from aus) was not added to Regional Data, did i read Canadian wasn't as well?

Mon Karen, Interdictor, Floats with Beans/Tools will change the Imperial Demo meta. That is the most important thing. It will open up a lot of play. Who fills the void is entirely uncertain.

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Stop it. You know they did. Demolisher and Rhymer were both run-away meta.

Maybe some places, but not where I play. Rhymer almost never sees the table, and Demolisher to the best of my knowledge has never had any impact on a game with only one exception. One time it oneshot a Corvette (like that is a major accomplishment at close range, lots of ships can do that).

Wait. . . the imperials had the advantage in wave 2? I must of missed that. . .

Stop it. You know they did. Demolisher and Rhymer were both run-away meta.

Maybe some places, but not where I play. Rhymer almost never sees the table, and Demolisher to the best of my knowledge has never had any impact on a game with only one exception. One time it oneshot a Corvette (like that is a major accomplishment at close range, lots of ships can do that).

Demolisher was strong in my area and Rhymer just as much so but they were outplayed for a few tournaments. I suspect that if we tallied up all the Store Championships in my area and then checked the two regionals that it may say I was wrong but for my experiences at the least I saw no issues.

so we have a thread that says the Interdictor makes the Empire OP, and we have this one saying the rebels got the upper hand.

I guess that means we have a balanced game folks.