I think the point is that you shouldn't have a single Juke carrier in your list. Short of Dengaroo, very few ships have infinite focus with almost no consequences. I've run a Rexler, Maarek, an OL list, all three running juke, and it worked very nicely. By the time Maarek got his shots in, the defender likely doesn't have any mods left on defense.

If you're able to consistently get more than one gun at range 1-2 on a single palp ace ship then you're up against a bad palp aces player. A large portion of the need for such levels of highly modified red dice is to allow a single shot a chance to hit. Most lists will reliably do damage if every single one of their ships gets a shot in against the same target as tokens and palp are limited, but half the point of palp aces (the half that's not about obnoxious amounts of evades) is the arc dodging component that makes sure that exact situation never happens.

Yeah, it was a Glaive. I had VI/Ion on Rex instead of the Predator/Tractor I settled on later. What did you do with the rest of your points in that list? Was it an initiative bid against Brobots? FCS on the Lambda?

Both lists were 100 points:

(100)

(36) Vessery + Juke + x7 + Mk2

(35) Glaive + Juke + x7 + Mk2

(29) Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

turned into

(100)

(35) Vessery + Juke + x7

(36) Ryad + PtL + x7 + Mk2

(29) Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

Out of curiosity, how does your dual TIE/Ds do vs Dengaroo? Seems like it'll have a really rough first round.

Depends on the Dengaroo, of course, but it's got a few decent situations that you can try and engineer. I usually spread out the Defenders so I'll have one that won't be in arc of Dengar. The one in arc of Dengar will try to push past and go for Manaroo, making her spend actions to get away instead of reinforcing Dengar. The Academy can lend firepower against Dengar or just block the white Sloop to buy time for the Ds, or go for blocks on Manaroo, depending on how the game unfolds.

Rex's Tractor Beam really can do huge work against Dengar, because it drops him to one die, so all those constant modifiers don't matter as much. It tends to force Dengar to blow Countermeasures early, because all 3 ships lined up on Dengar at 1 AGI won't leave a lot of Dengar left.

There's really not a set play against them, but the squad has some tools. I'm not sure I've played against top Dengaroo players, though, I seem to keep missing them in tournaments. There was a bunch at Gencon, but it wasn't in the cards. Local games have probably been 3 wins out of 4, I think.

I think the point is that you shouldn't have a single Juke carrier in your list. Short of Dengaroo, very few ships have infinite focus with almost no consequences. I've run a Rexler, Maarek, an OL list, all three running juke, and it worked very nicely. By the time Maarek got his shots in, the defender likely doesn't have any mods left on defense.

If you're able to consistently get more than one gun at range 1-2 on a single palp ace ship then you're up against a bad palp aces player. A large portion of the need for such levels of highly modified red dice is to allow a single shot a chance to hit. Most lists will reliably do damage if every single one of their ships gets a shot in against the same target as tokens and palp are limited, but half the point of palp aces (the half that's not about obnoxious amounts of evades) is the arc dodging component that makes sure that exact situation never happens.

Basically what Draconis said. I've run x7 with Juke against variety of lists and it's been useful against pretty much all of them:

1. Against aces it usually prevents them from using their focus offensively, limiting the incoming damage. It makes Inky face a tough choice if it wants to reposition - whether to take TL + Evade as second action or to focus. Either is suddenly sub-optimal. And if you manage to block an ace or deny it actions through some other means it can turn a good opportunity into a game winning round.

2. Against Dengaroo it really messes up the opponent's choices. You need to go after Manny of course but that's what you should do anyway. She has to choose whether to pass her focus and target locks to Dengar or not. If she does, you essentially have a crack shot against her. If she doesn't, Dengar's damage output falls dramatically and you can use your target locks against her.

3. Against IGs it's great because they often choose to rely on boost+evade (and target locks from FCS) so they have no focus. Juke essentially nullifies the evade.

4. Against u-boats it's pretty good because you can force the opponent to either accept the damage, lose the focus or overstress himself to get more. Either is useful.

Last but not least, Juke works even if you get blocked and have no other offensive modifiers at all. It can really make a difference between a wasted round and a pretty decent one.

For a more friendly, non palp aproach to defenders, I like:

In a more competitive environment, with more missiles/torpedoes of 4 assured hits, just change the stealth device and Omega leader for a basic palpmovile, and do the palp thing.

Nice list, though I I'd rather move the SD from Vess to OL. Vess is the one you want the enemy to shoot at as he's by far the weakest in the end game if he's the only one you have left. SD on OL would discourage trying to get it destroyed quickly while the opponent still has multiple ships to do so. SD on Vess encourages precisely that.

SD is only funcional if Omega remains unshooted to the end gane. But at first, Omega only get "token protección" against one enemy, and Omega have more difficulties to get focus and evade to protector his SD. So Omega with SD is call to be shooted at first with several enemy shipes.

In my experience, an SD is allways a lure to the first enemy fire, so better in Vess the Mártir.

And if the oponnet choose to ignore Vess, well, is letting your heavy hitter at your will several turns, thats loots of damage. And in the end game even without autoTL, an SD juked X7 defender is a hard danger.

3 att with focus + tl is different from just 3 attack and a singke modifier. Sure its not 4+, but combined with the defense ive had no trouble killing stuff. Im currently 13-2 with my 70 points of x7 defenders. That includes playing a game against 2 /D defenders plus an epsilon squadron pilot blocker. It definitely didnt "wreck my face". The defense with highly modified single attacks easily crushed the worse defense and less modified double attacks.

You see, I just don't get two /D Defender lists, unless they're both running predator. It's a ship that needs to be supported in some manner to do well, and it's quite expensive. I like running some ties to support the TB and get more shots downrange. Two of them together don't do that. So, I would say you probably weren't fighting the title at its best. There's a reason that the TIE shuttle title comes in the same box.

I'm also curious how you kill token staking arc dodgers.

Also the expected damage with /D (with flechette or ion) is the same as the old HLC defenders were, which then gives you the control element as well. I'm curious about all the people who say that /x7 is such a good deal, if /D just gave you an HLC for three points and let you put an ion token on the enemy if you would be more aware of how /D is also a fantastic deal.

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

He's a god damned tank gun strapped to a fighter jet.

I've run into him multiple times. No, he doesn't hurt that much. He's also quite easy to arc dodge. I alpha striked his compatriots down, he now has no TLs, and then I keep whittling him down for the win.

Vessery is an early game pilot, and /x7 is a late game card. They don't actually go that well together. Vessery is infinitely more terrifying running TB supporting the Inquisitor and OL.

You kill token stackers the same old way, fire everything at them you can. they only have a certain amount of tokens and Palp can affect 1 die per round. If you are splitting your fire, you arent serious, and /x7 is an all game card...

3 att with focus + tl is different from just 3 attack and a singke modifier. Sure its not 4+, but combined with the defense ive had no trouble killing stuff. Im currently 13-2 with my 70 points of x7 defenders. That includes playing a game against 2 /D defenders plus an epsilon squadron pilot blocker. It definitely didnt "wreck my face". The defense with highly modified single attacks easily crushed the worse defense and less modified double attacks.

You see, I just don't get two /D Defender lists, unless they're both running predator. It's a ship that needs to be supported in some manner to do well, and it's quite expensive. I like running some ties to support the TB and get more shots downrange. Two of them together don't do that. So, I would say you probably weren't fighting the title at its best. There's a reason that the TIE shuttle title comes in the same box.

I'm also curious how you kill token staking arc dodgers.

Also the expected damage with /D (with flechette or ion) is the same as the old HLC defenders were, which then gives you the control element as well. I'm curious about all the people who say that /x7 is such a good deal, if /D just gave you an HLC for three points and let you put an ion token on the enemy if you would be more aware of how /D is also a fantastic deal.

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

He's a god damned tank gun strapped to a fighter jet.

I've run into him multiple times. No, he doesn't hurt that much. He's also quite easy to arc dodge. I alpha striked his compatriots down, he now has no TLs, and then I keep whittling him down for the win.

Vessery is an early game pilot, and /x7 is a late game card. They don't actually go that well together. Vessery is infinitely more terrifying running TB supporting the Inquisitor and OL.

You kill token stackers the same old way, fire everything at them you can. they only have a certain amount of tokens and Palp can affect 1 die per round. If you are splitting your fire, you arent serious, and /x7 is an all game card...

statistically you need to dish 3\3 for 3 times in a turn to burn through Fel at R1-2

in a single turn.

Defender is just 3\8 short per roll, but two times as resilient.

Both are big improvements over the oringal, but I find it hard to look past the points efficiency of the x7. How many points is a free evade when you perform a 3+ speed maneuvre worth? Effectively, its a free hull or shield upgrade every turn that you spend it.

Added to that it synergises well with Juke without needing to either spend an action to get the evade or paying for a comms relay.

My son will run twin x7 Juke Glaives with Bren (crackshot, rebel captive, tactician) at a tournament this weekend, which renders me completely out of Jukes, so I'm entertaining Biophysical's /D list right now.

I crazily thought of dropping the Hull upgrades to get Howlrunner in there, until I remembered she was primary only (boo! hiss!), though she would make picking targets just that much harder. I fully get why Hull upgrade is a good choice, but it doesn't seem "fun" to me, I want more shenanigans out of any list I fly.

Back to the drawing board I go. With my son winning his own Imp Vets last week, we're really flush with Defenders, 3 reds, 2 grays, and a gray that's turning white and blue (Maarek!).

D Defenders with predator could be better than x7 ones, if the imperials had some kind of Biggs in the form of a 21 points TAPS.

My son will run twin x7 Juke Glaives with Bren (crackshot, rebel captive, tactician) at a tournament this weekend, which renders me completely out of Jukes, so I'm entertaining Biophysical's /D list right now.

I crazily thought of dropping the Hull upgrades to get Howlrunner in there, until I remembered she was primary only (boo! hiss!), though she would make picking targets just that much harder. I fully get why Hull upgrade is a good choice, but it doesn't seem "fun" to me, I want more shenanigans out of any list I fly.

Back to the drawing board I go. With my son winning his own Imp Vets last week, we're really flush with Defenders, 3 reds, 2 grays, and a gray that's turning white and blue (Maarek!).

If you want more shenanigans, dropping both Hull Upgrades and the Academy almost gives you enough points for a Scimitar with Fleet Officer. You'd need to downgrade Predator to something else, but that could still be reasonable.

My son will run twin x7 Juke Glaives with Bren (crackshot, rebel captive, tactician) at a tournament this weekend, which renders me completely out of Jukes, so I'm entertaining Biophysical's /D list right now.

I crazily thought of dropping the Hull upgrades to get Howlrunner in there, until I remembered she was primary only (boo! hiss!), though she would make picking targets just that much harder. I fully get why Hull upgrade is a good choice, but it doesn't seem "fun" to me, I want more shenanigans out of any list I fly.

Back to the drawing board I go. With my son winning his own Imp Vets last week, we're really flush with Defenders, 3 reds, 2 grays, and a gray that's turning white and blue (Maarek!).

If you want more shenanigans, dropping both Hull Upgrades and the Academy almost gives you enough points for a Scimitar with Fleet Officer. You'd need to downgrade Predator to something else, but that could still be reasonable.

But I can't do that, I don't trust my dice, I need the always on mods... Crackshot Scourge may be funny though, at PS7, it's very likely the big guys will have some enemy ship down to hull damage by the time he shoots.

Vader (100)

Darth Vader (31) - TIE Advanced

Determination (1), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Colonel Vessery (38) - TIE Defender

Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor

Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Here's one way to use TIE/D. Vader wants to keep his TL, so Vessery can theoretically have a free TL for both attacks, using his action for evade or focus as needed.

Vader (100)

Darth Vader (31) - TIE Advanced

Determination (1), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Colonel Vessery (38) - TIE Defender

Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor

Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Here's one way to use TIE/D. Vader wants to keep his TL, so Vessery can theoretically have a free TL for both attacks, using his action for evade or focus as needed.

Vessery can't evade without x7, only focus or barrel roll. And with vader as unique source of TL (Jax can't TL) is relatively easy to destroy more than half of the offensive force of the squadron just killing Vader.

And vader without palpatine, EU, extra shields... is a fairly easy ship to kill.

Vader (100)

Darth Vader (31) - TIE Advanced

Determination (1), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Colonel Vessery (38) - TIE Defender

Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor

Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Here's one way to use TIE/D. Vader wants to keep his TL, so Vessery can theoretically have a free TL for both attacks, using his action for evade or focus as needed.

Vessery can't evade without x7, only focus or barrel roll. And with vader as unique source of TL (Jax can't TL) is relatively easy to destroy more than half of the offensive force of the squadron just killing Vader.

And vader without palpatine, EU, extra shields... is a fairly easy ship to kill.

Colonel Vessery (35)

Predator (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/D (0)

Darth Vader (29)

Adaptability (0)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

TIE/x1 (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Targeting Computer (2)

Academy Pilot (12)

Targeting Computer (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Vader goes down, and you still have TL sources. Kill Vessery first, and you're leave Vader with his blockers for the end game.

Vader (100)

Darth Vader (31) - TIE Advanced

Determination (1), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Colonel Vessery (38) - TIE Defender

Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor

Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Here's one way to use TIE/D. Vader wants to keep his TL, so Vessery can theoretically have a free TL for both attacks, using his action for evade or focus as needed.

Vessery can't evade without x7, only focus or barrel roll. And with vader as unique source of TL (Jax can't TL) is relatively easy to destroy more than half of the offensive force of the squadron just killing Vader.

And vader without palpatine, EU, extra shields... is a fairly easy ship to kill.

Colonel Vessery (35)

Predator (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/D (0)

Darth Vader (29)

Adaptability (0)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

TIE/x1 (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Targeting Computer (2)

Academy Pilot (12)

Targeting Computer (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Vader goes down, and you still have TL sources. Kill Vessery first, and you're leave Vader with his blockers for the end game.

My son will run twin x7 Juke Glaives with Bren (crackshot, rebel captive, tactician) at a tournament this weekend, which renders me completely out of Jukes, so I'm entertaining Biophysical's /D list right now.

I crazily thought of dropping the Hull upgrades to get Howlrunner in there, until I remembered she was primary only (boo! hiss!), though she would make picking targets just that much harder. I fully get why Hull upgrade is a good choice, but it doesn't seem "fun" to me, I want more shenanigans out of any list I fly.

Back to the drawing board I go. With my son winning his own Imp Vets last week, we're really flush with Defenders, 3 reds, 2 grays, and a gray that's turning white and blue (Maarek!).

If you want more shenanigans, dropping both Hull Upgrades and the Academy almost gives you enough points for a Scimitar with Fleet Officer. You'd need to downgrade Predator to something else, but that could still be reasonable.

But I can't do that, I don't trust my dice, I need the always on mods... Crackshot Scourge may be funny though, at PS7, it's very likely the big guys will have some enemy ship down to hull damage by the time he shoots.

Maarek + Predator + Ion Cannon + xD

Vessery + Adaptability + Tractor Beam + xD

Leaves you with 23pts for shenanigans (all ships below have TL action for Vess):

Zeta Specialist (23) - blocker with 6hp, 3primary, a rear arc, and can barrell roll over asteroids!

Special Forces TIE (23), Collision Detector (0), Special Ops Training (0)

"Deathfire" (23) - no problem a good Conner Net cant solve

TIE Bomber (17), Extra Munitions (2), Conner Net (4)

Sienar Test Pilot (22) - best blocker in the game with a bite!

TIE Advanced Prototype (16), Proton Rockets (3), TIE/v1 (1), Autothrusters (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (23) - Tokens for everyone, and a stress if you go after him!

TIE Bomber (16), TIE Shuttle (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1), Rebel Captive (3), Fleet Officer (3)

“Zeta Leader” (23) - another PS7 with a 3 primary

TIE/fo Fighter (20), Weapons Guidance (2), Wired (1)

Omega Squadron Pilot (22) - nothing like a good juke after two double tappin Ds take all the tokens away.

TIE/fo Fighter (17), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

I quite like the TIE Shuttle idea, but my son is putting our Rebel Captive in his Tomax Bren to accompany his Glaives on that day (and is also grabbing my TIE MkIIs for that list). Providing the parts for more than one list is not always easy

Colonel Vessery + Tractor beam + Veteran Instincts + TIE/D + Shield Upgrade (41)

The Inquisitor + Juke + TIE/v1 + Autothrusters (30)

“Omega Leader” + Comm Relay + Juke + Stealth Device (29)

Every ship is PS8, you can shoot first with Vess so the TL of Inquisitor and Omega (both always want a TL) will be untouched and Vess gets the rerol. And even nicer, the first shoot of the four will be a tractor beam with TL, if you hit and steal 3 green dices (if you group your fire, if not, you should), much better than a simple 1 damage + ion token.

And both inquisitor and Omega are probably into the top 5 of the better small ships in the whole game...

Well thought and well built squad I'd bet. I'm gonna try this one.....thanks!

ur mom likes the d

This is the greatest post ever

ur mom likes the d

This is the greatest post ever

If you are twelve.

Vader (100)

Darth Vader (31) - TIE Advanced

Determination (1), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Colonel Vessery (38) - TIE Defender

Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)

Carnor Jax (31) - TIE Interceptor

Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Here's one way to use TIE/D. Vader wants to keep his TL, so Vessery can theoretically have a free TL for both attacks, using his action for evade or focus as needed.

i built a similar team but i used inquisitor instead of Jax, since Inquisitor also combos well with TL for a free evade.

The debate of which title to use depends upon which pilot you are putting it. For most pilots x7 is the better choice. I have had an x7 Delta with 1 hull left survive 3 straight 4-hit attacks from Dash.

Lately I have been running TIE/D with tractor beam on Rexler Brath with VI and Hull upgrade. A tractor beam attack, especially at PS10, is a nightmare for aces. Last night i killed a Whisper that only got to attack once in the game. They often have to spend tokens on an attack that does 0 damage but has some nasty effects. I also couple that with a PS10 Carnor Jax to take away their ability to use those tokens, which helps to make sure Brath's TB hits.

There is definitely merit in the longetivity that x7 provides, but the TIE/D title isn't something to just dismiss outright. It can serve its purpose with the right setup.