Mini Soontir (with palp support) vs mini Corran without regen...

I still love double taps though.

Mini-Corran? Double-tap every turn + control and a wide open dial is Mini-Corran?

Corran is a mini-Tie/D

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

He's a god damned tank gun strapped to a fighter jet.

3 att with focus + tl is different from just 3 attack and a singke modifier. Sure its not 4+, but combined with the defense ive had no trouble killing stuff. Im currently 13-2 with my 70 points of x7 defenders. That includes playing a game against 2 /D defenders plus an epsilon squadron pilot blocker. It definitely didnt "wreck my face". The defense with highly modified single attacks easily crushed the worse defense and less modified double attacks.

You see, I just don't get two /D Defender lists, unless they're both running predator. It's a ship that needs to be supported in some manner to do well, and it's quite expensive. I like running some ties to support the TB and get more shots downrange. Two of them together don't do that. So, I would say you probably weren't fighting the title at its best. There's a reason that the TIE shuttle title comes in the same box.

I'm also curious how you kill token staking arc dodgers.

Also the expected damage with /D (with flechette or ion) is the same as the old HLC defenders were, which then gives you the control element as well. I'm curious about all the people who say that /x7 is such a good deal, if /D just gave you an HLC for three points and let you put an ion token on the enemy if you would be more aware of how /D is also a fantastic deal.

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

He's a god damned tank gun strapped to a fighter jet.

I've run into him multiple times. No, he doesn't hurt that much. He's also quite easy to arc dodge. I alpha striked his compatriots down, he now has no TLs, and then I keep whittling him down for the win.

Vessery is an early game pilot, and /x7 is a late game card. They don't actually go that well together. Vessery is infinitely more terrifying running TB supporting the Inquisitor and OL.

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

The issue with Vessery juke (and juke in general on anyone but Omega) is that while it's great against most lists it's next to useless against palp aces. Soontir et all. have (at least one) focus and they were in all likelihood going to spend that focus anyways so juke did nothing to help in that engagement. Same thing with the Ghost (double VCX being popular at the moment), punching through 15 hp with 3 dice takes a while and juke isn't really helping when they're not rolling green dice to begin with.

That's not to say juke is bad, it's great. Against things like J5ks it excels by making them choose between firing a torpedo vs. taking that extra hit. Just that it's better in some situations than in others and that the people complaining about the lack of firepower are likely facing off against lists in their local meta where 3 dice + juke really isn't enough to punch through the defenses they're facing.

Mini Soontir (with palp support) vs mini Corran without regen...

I still love double taps though.

sadly, double tap is too often avoided by "ah, not spending that focus, only an evade, taking one shield off.

and as such Crab-Gunner effect is not effectively a doubletap v_v because doubletap is conditional againt a foe who can take a hit or two in.

I think we were all talking about TIE/Ds for double tapping.

Who cares about that double tap o_O

Defender is a mini-IGcrab with supreme action economy. who needs that doubletap when alternative is too goddamn good?

3 att with focus + tl is different from just 3 attack and a singke modifier. Sure its not 4+, but combined with the defense ive had no trouble killing stuff. Im currently 13-2 with my 70 points of x7 defenders. That includes playing a game against 2 /D defenders plus an epsilon squadron pilot blocker. It definitely didnt "wreck my face". The defense with highly modified single attacks easily crushed the worse defense and less modified double attacks.

You see, I just don't get two /D Defender lists, unless they're both running predator. It's a ship that needs to be supported in some manner to do well, and it's quite expensive. I like running some ties to support the TB and get more shots downrange. Two of them together don't do that. So, I would say you probably weren't fighting the title at its best. There's a reason that the TIE shuttle title comes in the same box.

I'm also curious how you kill token staking arc dodgers.

Also the expected damage with /D (with flechette or ion) is the same as the old HLC defenders were, which then gives you the control element as well. I'm curious about all the people who say that /x7 is such a good deal, if /D just gave you an HLC for three points and let you put an ion token on the enemy if you would be more aware of how /D is also a fantastic deal.

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

He's a god damned tank gun strapped to a fighter jet.

I've run into him multiple times. No, he doesn't hurt that much. He's also quite easy to arc dodge. I alpha striked his compatriots down, he now has no TLs, and then I keep whittling him down for the win.

Vessery is an early game pilot, and /x7 is a late game card. They don't actually go that well together. Vessery is infinitely more terrifying running TB supporting the Inquisitor and OL.

A single hlc shot > double tap with ion. 4 dice is more likely to hit than 3 dice, and hlc lets you use any modifiers you have for the one attack, while the double tap means you either have an unmodified shot, or split modifiers across shots.

Against low agility the double tap expected damage might match hlc. Against high agility it wont

Predator and lone wolf do not split modifiers, they work on every attack. And HLC doesn't work with either defender title. And two 3 dice attacks mean the second attack is likely firing after tokens were used by the defender on the first. HLC gets one shot with 4 dice. I would say it's a push.

I have found that people will spend tokens on defense after the first shot of the double tap due to fear of the control element. When using 2 tie/d defenders focusing on a single target I find the second ship will wreck face.

here is what i have been testing. it is 97 points so i can add a couple mods if i want.

Rexlar Brath

Tie /D

Pred

Ion Cannon

Mareek Steele

Tie/D

VI

Tractor Beam

Wampa

Hull upgrade

Most people fear Wampa even without Sheev and try to focus him down first. Attack with Mareek and watch the defender spend his token so he does not get put on a rock or lose a green die. This allows Rexlar to hit hard with an Ion and primary.

I have found that people will spend tokens on defense after the first shot of the double tap due to fear of the control element. When using 2 tie/d defenders focusing on a single target I find the second ship will wreck face.

here is what i have been testing. it is 97 points so i can add a couple mods if i want.

Rexlar Brath

Tie /D

Pred

Ion Cannon

Mareek Steele

Tie/D

VI

Tractor Beam

Wampa

Hull upgrade

Most people fear Wampa even without Sheev and try to focus him down first. Attack with Mareek and watch the defender spend his token so he does not get put on a rock or lose a green die. This allows Rexlar to hit hard with an Ion and primary.

i ran a similar list last night and neither of the pilots abilities ever triggered.

Personally i like vessery better with VI than mareek steele.

I like one of each. My go to lust lately has been

Vessery

-vi (considering crack shot if I don't play omega leader)

-tractor

-green engines

-/d

Ryad

-ptl

-x7

-green engines

Depending on what I expect to see, either

Omega leader

-juke

-comms

Or

gamma squad vet

-deadeye

-proton torps

-extra bullets

-chips

I referred to "basic" meaning just a three-die primary. It's not terribly special anymore. Most every good ship has some means of adding on to their attacks beyond just throwing some dice: have double taps, torpedoes, ATC, or something. /x7 doesn't have that.

So you're paying like 70 points for two three-dice TL, maybe focused attacks? 70 points for that just doesn't seem like a good deal to me, not matter how defensive it is, and at relatively low PS to boot. I've found juke /x7 to be godawful, they almost never have the evade to use.

Also to me, TBing people onto asteroids or out of arc and just not getting attacked in the first place seems more powerful than having an evade token.

I get that /x7 is good, and people enjoy running it. It's just that /D completely wrecks its face in the matchup. Seriously, I haven't lost to an /x7 since Veterans came out.

X7 is hands down the better choice. Cheaper cost and increased survivability. What else do you need?

Actually killing your opponent. The /x7 is surprisingly lacking in firepower I've found.

I have played a dozen or two games with:

(100)

Vessery + x7 + Juke

Ryad + x7 + PtL + Mk2

Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

• Biophysical and I played a match on vassal with PalpDefenders [edit: Juke Defenders Glaive/Vessery] vs his TIE/Ds [edit: Rexler had Ion] listed above. It was close but the x7s won.
• I have played the Dengaroo vs PalpDefenders matchup 5+ times, sometimes as Dengar and sometimes as PalpDefenders. The x7 Defenders have won every time. The most recent event was round 5 of a 25 player Summer Kit, where I was playing Dengaroo and we were both 4-0 going into the match. PalpDefenders is one of the few squads that has the durability and speed to patiently wait to hunt down Manaroo. Generally Manaroo and Palp die around the same time, and then it's cleanup vs an actionless Dengar.
• Tournament results are generally favoring x7s over TIE/D.
• The TIE/Ds are less brute force cost efficient than x7s, so they NEED to land a tractor beam or ion hit to earn back their point cost vs x7s.
• I have flown against TIE/D Vessery flying Dengaroo 3 times. Two out of three times, Vessery died in the first round of combat. One of those even had a hull upgrade. The third time he died before he shot in the second round.

ur mom likes the d

People saying that the x7 doesn't hit hard enough aren't using Vessery juke.

The issue with Vessery juke (and juke in general on anyone but Omega) is that while it's great against most lists it's next to useless against palp aces. Soontir et all. have (at least one) focus and they were in all likelihood going to spend that focus anyways so juke did nothing to help in that engagement. Same thing with the Ghost (double VCX being popular at the moment), punching through 15 hp with 3 dice takes a while and juke isn't really helping when they're not rolling green dice to begin with.

That's not to say juke is bad, it's great. Against things like J5ks it excels by making them choose between firing a torpedo vs. taking that extra hit. Just that it's better in some situations than in others and that the people complaining about the lack of firepower are likely facing off against lists in their local meta where 3 dice + juke really isn't enough to punch through the defenses they're facing.

I think the point is that you shouldn't have a single Juke carrier in your list. Short of Dengaroo, very few ships have infinite focus with almost no consequences. I've run a Rexler, Maarek, an OL list, all three running juke, and it worked very nicely. By the time Maarek got his shots in, the defender likely doesn't have any mods left on defense.

I have found that people will spend tokens on defense after the first shot of the double tap due to fear of the control element. When using 2 tie/d defenders focusing on a single target I find the second ship will wreck face.

here is what i have been testing. it is 97 points so i can add a couple mods if i want.

Rexlar Brath

Tie /D

Pred

Ion Cannon

Mareek Steele

Tie/D

VI

Tractor Beam

Wampa

Hull upgrade

Most people fear Wampa even without Sheev and try to focus him down first. Attack with Mareek and watch the defender spend his token so he does not get put on a rock or lose a green die. This allows Rexlar to hit hard with an Ion and primary.

i ran a similar list last night and neither of the pilots abilities ever triggered.

Personally i like vessery better with VI than mareek steele.

See I am of the school that the ability is icing on the cake. The fear of the ability triggering is what drives the list. I like Vess alot, ruthlessness and tractor beam are incredible but i have to build around the requirement of a TL with Rex and Steele you do not have to have a TL.

Predator and lone wolf do not split modifiers, they work on every attack. And HLC doesn't work with either defender title. And two 3 dice attacks mean the second attack is likely firing after tokens were used by the defender on the first. HLC gets one shot with 4 dice. I would say it's a push.

Predator doesnt split modifiers, but Can easily be worse than having a target lock depending on the roll. Ans most /D lists I see seem to use VI anyway. I know hlc doesnt get to use the title. Wasnt saying it should be used, just going with your comparison for expected damage.

Tell that to my 14 game win streak with Jugglers vess/ryad/palp list.

Took out soontir and whisper in the same game. Vessery's juke sets up the damage spike from Ryad's focus/target lock/palped crit.

[*]Biophysical and I played a match on vassal with PalpDefenders vs his TIE/Ds listed above. It was close but the x7s won.

I think if TIE/Ds were as bad compared to x7s as a lot of people on this thread are suggesting, one wouldn't expect TIE/Ds vs Palp empowered x7s to be as close as that game was. I think we were both running beta versions of our respective lists, though.

I take D on Vessery,

Otherwise I take X/7

[*]Biophysical and I played a match on vassal with PalpDefenders vs his TIE/Ds listed above. It was close but the x7s won.

I think if TIE/Ds were as bad compared to x7s as a lot of people on this thread are suggesting, one wouldn't expect TIE/Ds vs Palp empowered x7s to be as close as that game was. I think we were both running beta versions of our respective lists, though.

i think the difference is literally the same age old situation X-Wing has ever had.

/D is about heavy hitting / CC. x7 is about survivability. If you can dish the damage on the D's quick and hard enough what the opponent does isn't gonna matter. The question is IF. the x7 is about trying to survive your opponents hits.

Which is better? IMO its entirely situational and how you fly it. I think most people currently on this forum are all about survivability due to the threat of U-Boats. I've always been an in your face dish some damage kind of player in gaming. So /D appeals to me.

I have found that people will spend tokens on defense after the first shot of the double tap due to fear of the control element. When using 2 tie/d defenders focusing on a single target I find the second ship will wreck face.

here is what i have been testing. it is 97 points so i can add a couple mods if i want.

Rexlar Brath

Tie /D

Pred

Ion Cannon

Mareek Steele

Tie/D

VI

Tractor Beam

Wampa

Hull upgrade

Most people fear Wampa even without Sheev and try to focus him down first. Attack with Mareek and watch the defender spend his token so he does not get put on a rock or lose a green die. This allows Rexlar to hit hard with an Ion and primary.

i ran a similar list last night and neither of the pilots abilities ever triggered.

Personally i like vessery better with VI than mareek steele.

See I am of the school that the ability is icing on the cake. The fear of the ability triggering is what drives the list. I like Vess alot, ruthlessness and tractor beam are incredible but i have to build around the requirement of a TL with Rex and Steele you do not have to have a TL.

I'm going to try the list with Omega Ace, sacking the hull upgrade since its more than likely his TL will sit on his target until the most opportune moment, Giving Vess what he needs. Then its probably an instant kill when I want to use it.

[*]Biophysical and I played a match on vassal with PalpDefenders vs his TIE/Ds listed above. It was close but the x7s won.

I think if TIE/Ds were as bad compared to x7s as a lot of people on this thread are suggesting, one wouldn't expect TIE/Ds vs Palp empowered x7s to be as close as that game was. I think we were both running beta versions of our respective lists, though.

Actually, come to think of it, I was running Palp and Vessery and a Glaive both with Juke + Mk2. It's not the exact Vessery/Ryad/Palp list I later settled on but certainly still Palp Defenders archetype.

TIE/D Defenders aren't terrible, and in some cases they are exceptional. They beat the stuffing out of any generics in the game Scouts notwithstanding, but then so does any tier 1 list. I just think the x7 is a little better than TIE/D.

One thing that durability buys you is time... which in a game of skill such as X-wing provides more opportunities for player skill to matter more than random dice luck. My meta game tournament strategy comes down to reducing matchup variance and always having the opportunity to win a match by flying better than my opponent even if the dice go south. I expect that my dice will go south several times in any given tournament, but even if I have terrible luck in two games, I can still go X-1 and make the cut if I "Fly Better". So in this regard x7's suit my playstyle.

Yeah, it was a Glaive. I had VI/Ion on Rex instead of the Predator/Tractor I settled on later. What did you do with the rest of your points in that list? Was it an initiative bid against Brobots? FCS on the Lambda?

Yeah, it was a Glaive. I had VI/Ion on Rex instead of the Predator/Tractor I settled on later. What did you do with the rest of your points in that list? Was it an initiative bid against Brobots? FCS on the Lambda?

Both lists were 100 points:

(100)

(36) Vessery + Juke + x7 + Mk2

(35) Glaive + Juke + x7 + Mk2

(29) Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

turned into

(100)

(35) Vessery + Juke + x7

(36) Ryad + PtL + x7 + Mk2

(29) Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

Out of curiosity, how does your dual TIE/Ds do vs Dengaroo? Seems like it'll have a really rough first round.