I like /D myself used correctly you can devastate most things early on, x7 is better for tournament games as it ensures a bad dice roll won't doom you but as I play casual losing to dice isn't as big a deal.

So..... you're saying you want the D?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

The problem I find with /d is if you build it to be brutal it feels like you can only take 1 in the list. Glaives with /d, ion, and predator sounds incredible, but that leaves 20 points to assist/mitigate weakness. Compare that to Glaives with x7 and predator and you can fit a full 30 point palp shuttle in there for two really beefy pretty hard hitting jousters.

Also free evades just feel so good and help defenders avoid blanking out like they seem to love to do.

This is my current list with 2 TIE/Ds:

Rexler Brath, Predator, TIE/D, Tractor Beam, Hull Upgrade = 44

Maarek Stele, Predator, TIE/D, Ion Cannon, Hull Upgrade = 44

Academy Pilot = 12

100 points

With a list like this, the fickleness of green dice goes both ways. You give the opponent so many opportunities to roll badly on defense. Every one of the 4 shots from the Defenders can do very bad things, so any bad defensive role is a backbreaker.

Yeah, I suppose you can just own not having a lot of points left and just fill with an academy, just the all offense all the time approach is scary.

That kind of offense is a defense all its own. Other squads can't risk the effects of taking the full force of the squad, so they tend to use tokens for defense, meaning their attacks often do more manageable damage. Against a lot of squads you have the advantage that you can kill one ship in the squad before they can kill a Defender, thanks to 7 hit points and AGI 3 (crummy rolls tend to even out with good rolls with higher HP totals). They're then down a ship and you're at full firepower, even if one of the Defenders is at lower HP. The control offered by any of the three available cannons can save you a lot of grief itself. Tractors let you kill stuff faster or put it on rocks. Flechette and Ions can limit their actions and movement options in different ways. The end result is you're receiving fewer high quality shots over the course of the game.

This means that occasionally have to soak some shots that would bounce off better defended ships, but you're trading your hit points for damage and positional advantage when the control cannons come into play.

I referred to "basic" meaning just a three-die primary. It's not terribly special anymore. Most every good ship has some means of adding on to their attacks beyond just throwing some dice: have double taps, torpedoes, ATC, or something. /x7 doesn't have that.

So you're paying like 70 points for two three-dice TL, maybe focused attacks? 70 points for that just doesn't seem like a good deal to me, not matter how defensive it is, and at relatively low PS to boot. I've found juke /x7 to be godawful, they almost never have the evade to use.

Also to me, TBing people onto asteroids or out of arc and just not getting attacked in the first place seems more powerful than having an evade token.

I get that /x7 is good, and people enjoy running it. It's just that /D completely wrecks its face in the matchup. Seriously, I haven't lost to an /x7 since Veterans came out.

X7 is hands down the better choice. Cheaper cost and increased survivability. What else do you need?

Actually killing your opponent. The /x7 is surprisingly lacking in firepower I've found.

Has anyone tried the triple deltas /D with ion cannons? I've not gone further than theory crafting, but it would seem to make people really shy about spending their tokens on offense.

I've never run PS1 ships though...

the "D" stands for "Don't"

reason being: my name

Would everyone's opinion change if it could field a Mangler or HLC and dual attack?

Mangler cannon yes. HLC would be too OP. Vessery HLC and /D title... That would be crazy.

I was dubious about TIE/D at first, but having flown both a little bit now I'm a firm believer in having one of each in my list. A Glaive with Ion Cannon, Predator and TIE/D is fearsome enough to force your opponent to deal with it, and they're unlikely to be able do so before it fires. It's far less action dependant and so is far more able to use the slower parts of the dial, and to pull the surprise red moves that everyone forgets Defenders can even do, which makes it easier to set up shots and far less predictable than the X7's tend to be. It can also keep the pressure on without having to break away and come back, and the ion effect can make it a lot easier for the X7 in the list to set itself up.
Having one of each I find a lot more freedom in how they operate and am better able to utilise them together than when I've tried two X7's, ironically. I think Predator is mandatory though, as otherwise you just do not have enough dice modification to get the most out of your two shots.

TIE/D's probably do get toasted by torpedo boats, but then very little doesn't at the moment.

I referred to "basic" meaning just a three-die primary. It's not terribly special anymore. Most every good ship has some means of adding on to their attacks beyond just throwing some dice: have double taps, torpedoes, ATC, or something. /x7 doesn't have that.

So you're paying like 70 points for two three-dice TL, maybe focused attacks? 70 points for that just doesn't seem like a good deal to me, not matter how defensive it is, and at relatively low PS to boot. I've found juke /x7 to be godawful, they almost never have the evade to use.

Also to me, TBing people onto asteroids or out of arc and just not getting attacked in the first place seems more powerful than having an evade token.

I get that /x7 is good, and people enjoy running it. It's just that /D completely wrecks its face in the matchup. Seriously, I haven't lost to an /x7 since Veterans came out.

X7 is hands down the better choice. Cheaper cost and increased survivability. What else do you need?

Actually killing your opponent. The /x7 is surprisingly lacking in firepower I've found.

3 att with focus + tl is different from just 3 attack and a singke modifier. Sure its not 4+, but combined with the defense ive had no trouble killing stuff. Im currently 13-2 with my 70 points of x7 defenders. That includes playing a game against 2 /D defenders plus an epsilon squadron pilot blocker. It definitely didnt "wreck my face". The defense with highly modified single attacks easily crushed the worse defense and less modified double attacks.

Has anyone tried the triple deltas /D with ion cannons? I've not gone further than theory crafting, but it would seem to make people really shy about spending their tokens on offense.

I've never run PS1 ships though...

Triple deltas with ion cannon is solid. It works best against rebels (or anything with low agility), since such ships have no way to protect themselves from all that ion. It can possibly work well against aces, but only if you can get 2 arcs on an ace (or a block). I've also used it successfully against IG88s.

About the only thing it really struggles against is 'alpha strike' lists, since they have the higher pilot skill and firepower to possibly erase a defender before it shoots, thus making it an uphill battle for the remaining 2 defenders...

I like target lock dream team: Vessery w/ D, Vader and Omega Leader.

TIE/Ds can be powerful for sure. They're semi-alpha strikers. The first engagement vs them can end very badly for the enemy and set up the rest of the game. They can perma-ionize a crucial enemy ship, throw it into a rock or simply pull it forward while lowering it's defences - and tear it to pieces.The problem is that unlike actual alpha-strikers they don't really do THAT much damage. It's still at most 1 damage from the cannon and a standard 3 primary with Predator and little else. So if they end up facing actual alpha strikers, such as u-boats, crack shot / glit IGs or a TIE swarm, they find it very hard to out-alpha the other guys. Especially if they fly large ships which are naturally more resistant to tractors and ions.

Fielding TIE/Ds is therefore risky. You risk a very bad match up. You risk poor luck on your semi-alpha - if it whiffs, things can go uphill very fast. And you risk a lot by putting that many points in ships that don't have very many defensive tokens. Unlike in case of x7 which can seemingly survive forever as long as they can avoid crossfire, /Ds have to either crush the enemy fast or risk getting crushed if they fail.

As for /x7, I have learned never to field them if they only have one attack modifier. They are indeed too expensive for that. That's why I'm not a big fan of Glaives, even with Juke. If you invest 35ish points into a fighter it must be reliable. Ryad and Vessery work very well though. Each can reliably get both TL and focus each turn. Vessery can take Juke or Outmanuever on top of that, effectively softening the enemy defence as well. He does get worse if he's the last one standing but if you simply ignore him and leave him for last he can really mess you up.

If something can out joust TIE/Ds, they shouldn't joust it. Ds have a big maneuvering advantage over both Bots and Uboats thanks to the small base. They're also not really even alpha strikers. They actually increase their damage in subsequent rounds because they're more likely to get targets at Range 1, and they start getting action economy advantages thanks to the white K-turn. So not really alpha strikers at all, or even mini alpha strikers.

As bio says they have never been jousters and using them that way was a large part of why so many failed with them.

If the other guy wants you in front don't be there, good asteroid placement can control where a large based ship will fly and let you go places they can't.

I like destroying ships so I find myself being pulled toward the xD. The x7 just doesnt hit hard enough and I find myself going to time when flying them. Three attack die arent enough these days vs Palp Aces, and barely touch dengaroo. Four attack die, double attacks, and blocking are what you need. Or anti green upgrades like zuckuss and 4lom.

xD defenders last quite a bit unless you fly them in the middle of three arcs. Whether they survive the game with 1 hull or all 6 hp like x7s, its all the same. You dont need to flipout if you lose a couple shields off a defender.

I tried both titles tonight for the first time after buying vets. Both have nice uses, but x7 for the moment seems like the better deal, even though D is probably more fun.

Neither of them did very much help for me though as I was facing a triple ace list that outflew, outgunned, and outdefended me.

If something can out joust TIE/Ds, they shouldn't joust it. Ds have a big maneuvering advantage over both Bots and Uboats thanks to the small base. They're also not really even alpha strikers. They actually increase their damage in subsequent rounds because they're more likely to get targets at Range 1, and they start getting action economy advantages thanks to the white K-turn. So not really alpha strikers at all, or even mini alpha strikers.

Try to "just not joust" well flown IGs with ships that only have a single action and no boost. If the opponent knows what he's doing, in the initial engagement he'll get you in arcs of both ships whether you go straight at him or not. He'll also lock you and pop glit. Glit (and possibly AT) will absorb most of your damage and you'll be facing 2x4 very accurate dice with gunner and crackshot. If you're lucky, one of your Ds will be seriously beaten up but alive. If you're less lucky, it will just die. I know because I sometimes find it hard to survive that alpha with /x7s despite my best efforts to stay out of arc or out of range of at least one of IGs. And Ryad with /x7 and PTL can actually barrel roll, evade and focus - something no D is capable of. Granted, after the initial engagement defenders do get advantage thanks to their small base and white k-turns. IGs need to waste some of their turns just to open the distance once more. This is why I usually can beat IGs - I get hammered on the approach but then keep dancing around them and wearing them down. However that's because my defenders usually do survive. Ds find it more difficult simply because of lack of evade and higher cost, which also means fewer/weaker ships supporting them. Losing a D also means losing a larger chunk of your overall damage output. That is what my "semi-alpha" comment is about. It's not that Ds get a powerful salvo early on and get weaker later. It's that Ds get a powerful salvo early and they either end up destroying/crippling the opponent or all too often they end up dead. As you said yourself, it's an all-attack approach that resembles politics in Westeros - you win or you die. If you can knock out an enemy with that flurry of attacks or put him on a rock and prevent him from shooting, you'll be fine. If not, well...

A free 'action' without stress, providing a token even when bumping, even while stressed

is worth a net gain of 3-4-5 points

and comes with -2 point discount

I suppose the choice is obvious?

X/7 forever

If something can out joust TIE/Ds, they shouldn't joust it. Ds have a big maneuvering advantage over both Bots and Uboats thanks to the small base. They're also not really even alpha strikers. They actually increase their damage in subsequent rounds because they're more likely to get targets at Range 1, and they start getting action economy advantages thanks to the white K-turn. So not really alpha strikers at all, or even mini alpha strikers.

Try to "just not joust" well flown IGs with ships that only have a single action and no boost. If the opponent knows what he's doing, in the initial engagement he'll get you in arcs of both ships whether you go straight at him or not. He'll also lock you and pop glit. Glit (and possibly AT) will absorb most of your damage and you'll be facing 2x4 very accurate dice with gunner and crackshot. If you're lucky, one of your Ds will be seriously beaten up but alive. If you're less lucky, it will just die. I know because I sometimes find it hard to survive that alpha with /x7s despite my best efforts to stay out of arc or out of range of at least one of IGs.

Not true at all. Defenders have slightly better range control due to being on smaller bases. If you are finding yourself in arc of both IGs on the opening turn of shooting, then frankly, you are doing it wrong. You're basically engaging on the IGs terms.

I have flown defenders against IGs many, many times (especially when they were really popular some months ago---and I'm talking about some very quality players too). The key is asteroid placement and your initial approach. If they place on the same side, then you need to maneuver until the rocks are in between you and them. If they place spread out, then you need to put the rocks between your ships and one of the IGs while you set up good approach lanes on the other. Don't let the big base block your k-turns (achieved by thinking ahead when planning dials) and you should stand a very good chance of downing an IG before you lose a Defender...

If something can out joust TIE/Ds, they shouldn't joust it. Ds have a big maneuvering advantage over both Bots and Uboats thanks to the small base. They're also not really even alpha strikers. They actually increase their damage in subsequent rounds because they're more likely to get targets at Range 1, and they start getting action economy advantages thanks to the white K-turn. So not really alpha strikers at all, or even mini alpha strikers.

Try to "just not joust" well flown IGs with ships that only have a single action and no boost. If the opponent knows what he's doing, in the initial engagement he'll get you in arcs of both ships whether you go straight at him or not. He'll also lock you and pop glit. Glit (and possibly AT) will absorb most of your damage and you'll be facing 2x4 very accurate dice with gunner and crackshot. If you're lucky, one of your Ds will be seriously beaten up but alive. If you're less lucky, it will just die. I know because I sometimes find it hard to survive that alpha with /x7s despite my best efforts to stay out of arc or out of range of at least one of IGs. And Ryad with /x7 and PTL can actually barrel roll, evade and focus - something no D is capable of. Granted, after the initial engagement defenders do get advantage thanks to their small base and white k-turns. IGs need to waste some of their turns just to open the distance once more. This is why I usually can beat IGs - I get hammered on the approach but then keep dancing around them and wearing them down. However that's because my defenders usually do survive. Ds find it more difficult simply because of lack of evade and higher cost, which also means fewer/weaker ships supporting them. Losing a D also means losing a larger chunk of your overall damage output. That is what my "semi-alpha" comment is about. It's not that Ds get a powerful salvo early on and get weaker later. It's that Ds get a powerful salvo early and they either end up destroying/crippling the opponent or all too often they end up dead. As you said yourself, it's an all-attack approach that resembles politics in Westeros - you win or you die. If you can knock out an enemy with that flurry of attacks or put him on a rock and prevent him from shooting, you'll be fine. If not, well...

I know it might be hard to believe, but there are a few of us that were flying defenders and doing well with them before IV. I mention it because they had less damage output and were more vulnerable and there were still ways to fly successfully then. The D flies very similarly to them then but with a couple of not-so insignificant advantages. I'm not trying to invalidate your experience and input, but I will say it doesn't line up with mine own regarding the D or those that I've seen fly them well. That's also not to say that the they're the "better" than the /x7, but it's not quite the difference that people think if you put in the time to fly the D.

But sad as it to admit, the x7 is the better choice. They made it a mini-Soontir. And as with Soontir, in a tournament setting you'd be foolish not to bring the version that stacks tokens vs the ones that don't.

And let's be honest. Unless you are playing Epic, you are playing in a tournament setting.

Err, I have played both with IGs and against them so I think i've got the ranges figured out quite well. Rock placement and ship placement are indeed critical for your game plan but they can't really stop the initial onslaught if the IG player is competent. IGs are FAST. If they start right ahead of you or slightly to your side at the end of their deployment area, they are able to get into R3 of you in round 1 unless you slow roll or turn sharply away from them. By turn 2 they can get you in arc no matter where you started. Granted, I usually play against an IG guy who recently went to a 200 people tournament and ended 6-0 in Swiss, so maybe my opinion about IG's capabilities are overblown because of that. But I'm quite convinced that barring some obvious mistake, agressive IGs can always get their arcs on you by round 2 at the latest and trying to prevent it is more or less futile. They're just too fast.

You CAN try and make them split their fire though it's very hard to do. You can try and make sure at least one of them is in range 1 or at least isn't in range 3. And you can try and make sure that the IG player has few good manuevering options past the first exchange of fire. Those are the things you can and should fight for in the early positioning game. Preventing that first shooutout entirely on the other hand is just not realistic. If you try, there's a good chance you'll just get in a position where they fire at you and you can't fire back with at least some of your ships. I don't know, maybe some better players out there that could do it. The best I ever got with IGs was semi-finals at the regionals and I never had significant problems with setting the first joust. I had plenty of problems later on, but not at that stage. I imagine for more experienced IG players it's even easier.

Mini Soontir (with palp support) vs mini Corran without regen...

I still love double taps though.

I do agree with Lightrock that the double shot from IGs is sometimes unavoidable, although I've had good luck reducing it's frequency with asteroids and deployment. Even in those cases where they do catch you, (and my experience is with the PS 7 and 8 TIE/Ds that I described upthread), and you can't roll out of arc, bad luck is required to lose a ship right off the bat. The high HP totals and lack of IG TL on the opening engagement usually means you survive with 2-3 HP. If the Defender player did their job right, however, an IG is also lightly damaged, probably stressed, and pointing into an asteroid field, and might have an Academy Pilot ready to block off escape lanes. The IGs are often functionally EPTless at this point. The TIE/Ds are usually in close at this point, where it's easier to roll out of arc and their Cannon + Primary shots are absolutely devastating.

Mini Soontir (with palp support) vs mini Corran without regen...

I still love double taps though.

Mini-Corran? Double-tap every turn + control and a wide open dial is Mini-Corran?