You are an ass.

I for one welcome the day companies start offering cheapskate players nothing but a raised middle finger.

Thankfully we're living in the world where middle finger from disappointed customer is much important.

What is it exactly that you want in a core set?

Thanks for trap question. I wrote above i don't want any multi Core Sets. Bring back Clan oriented starters with playsets of cards that will allow to any deckbuilding instead filling decks with crap cards because there are no substitutes.

It's not a trap question! I'm just being direct and asking what your solution to the perceived problem is.

You basically want the same model of the CCG as I understand? With what? A playest of all the neutral cards and a playset of the clan cards?

I'm just trying to understand your position becasue you are being very vague. If you actually outlined what you think would be a good distribution model, for both consumer and company then I'm sure there may be some other people her who might agree with you.

Not everyting has to be so adversarial!

Thankfully we're living in the world where middle finger from disappointed customer is much important.

That you believe this true explains much.

Only if that customer spent money in the first place. Otherwise they're just noise on forums...snotty yelp reviews...etc

Edit:

And to be frank, if lotus open playtest, and emperor edition, and 4th ed d+d taught us any lesson that should be learned, its that forums are terrible at making decent games or sussing out legitimate balance issues prior to print.

Only if that customer spent money in the first place. Otherwise they're just noise on forums...snotty yelp reviews...etc

Edit:

And to be frank, if lotus open playtest, and emperor edition, and 4th ed d+d taught us any lesson that should be learned, its that forums are terrible at making decent games or sussing out legitimate balance issues prior to print.

Not sure why you put 4th Edition D&D in there. That's easily the most solid rules work ever done in any D&D edition ever. Still my favorite edition as well.

Imagine situation where everyone's has option to buy his own 'clan deluxe' before even first cycle starts.

I can barely imagine the nightmare this would represent. How do you put such a thing in production?

Discrepancies in faction popularity would mean that you must estimate correctly how many exemplars of each you need to effectively produce and distribute...

You'd have way too many products sitting forever on shelves where some factions are less popular. I don't think you'd see many brick and mortar shops put that product on their shelves...

Imagine situation where everyone's has option to buy his own 'clan deluxe' before even first cycle starts.

I can barely imagine the nightmare this would represent. How do you put such a thing in production?

For 20 years AEG have managed to produce and distribute clan starters.

Stop selling air in boxes and instead fill them with cards. Have you realized that fe. Emperor Edition Gempukku starter cardbox fit enough cards from LCG deluxe expansion? Do you know that Starter Box (that contained nine clans starters) from EE was similiar in size to old LCG Core Starter so you can easily put it on display in shop to attract players?

https://www.l5r.com/emperor-edition/

One of the easiest way to spot ex L5R players on various card tournaments is fact they still use EE boxes or IvE tins to hold their decks becasue they're handy and look nice. And you'll see more of them again when LCG will be released.

Discrepancies in faction popularity would mean that you must estimate correctly how many exemplars of each you need to effectively produce and distribute...

So there's no good product managers, marketing researchers, designers and playtesters in Asmodee? After selling many said "Ah, finally L5R is in good hands. They know their job!". So let they show us their skills!

I know that "manipulated meta" system of LCG (from deluxe to deluxe) is much easier to maintain, so maybe it's highest time to take a risk and start something different that will please both - ex CCG and LCG crowds?

Sorry but I can't see how your "one starter per faction" would be good unless you take for granted that most players will stick to one faction and only one faction.


In that case, I could understand you only wanting to buy a starter for your faction, but I doubt this would be better than buying three core sets. How much would, in your opinion, a one faction starter cost?

How do you think a company could know how many of each starter would be needed? I have high hopes for the L5R LCG, but I'm pretty sure you won't have an 8 factions one tier meta.

So you'd have some starters selling a lot more than the others with your solution, and the rest staying on the shelves. You can be pretty sure than a few weeks of that and most shops won't bother stocking new products for that game anytime soon.

I still think that to attract new players, an LCG will need the core set being a possible standalone game.

So far, all your posts seem to explain how your solution would be better for you and a minority of players, not for the majority of the players or for the game as a whole.

I'd like your opinion on why your model for an LCG is better than what has been the norm for previous LCGs from FFG.

Only if that customer spent money in the first place. Otherwise they're just noise on forums...snotty yelp reviews...etc

Edit:

And to be frank, if lotus open playtest, and emperor edition, and 4th ed d+d taught us any lesson that should be learned, its that forums are terrible at making decent games or sussing out legitimate balance issues prior to print.

Not sure why you put 4th Edition D&D in there. That's easily the most solid rules work ever done in any D&D edition ever. Still my favorite edition as well.

so solid it handed the crown of most popular fantasy rpg to pathfinder for a decade

Sorry but I can't see how your "one starter per faction" would be good unless you take for granted that most players will stick to one faction and only one faction.

In that case, I could understand you only wanting to buy a starter for your faction, but I doubt this would be better than buying three core sets. How much would, in your opinion, a one faction starter cost?

How do you think a company could know how many of each starter would be needed? I have high hopes for the L5R LCG, but I'm pretty sure you won't have an 8 factions one tier meta.

So you'd have some starters selling a lot more than the others with your solution, and the rest staying on the shelves. You can be pretty sure than a few weeks of that and most shops won't bother stocking new products for that game anytime soon.

I still think that to attract new players, an LCG will need the core set being a possible standalone game.

So far, all your posts seem to explain how your solution would be better for you and a minority of players, not for the majority of the players or for the game as a whole.

I'd like your opinion on why your model for an LCG is better than what has been the norm for previous LCGs from FFG.

Not to mention we've gone from 120 for a playset, to 250 for a playset with Kempy's model.

And the funny part is it doesn't even solve the problem he is talking about. If you buy another clan starter you end up with "useless" neutral cards becasue you had them in the first starter you got!

Only if that customer spent money in the first place. Otherwise they're just noise on forums...snotty yelp reviews...etc

Edit:

And to be frank, if lotus open playtest, and emperor edition, and 4th ed d+d taught us any lesson that should be learned, its that forums are terrible at making decent games or sussing out legitimate balance issues prior to print.

Not sure why you put 4th Edition D&D in there. That's easily the most solid rules work ever done in any D&D edition ever. Still my favorite edition as well.

so solid it handed the crown of most popular fantasy rpg to pathfinder for a decade

Well, that's nice (if wrong), but that has nothing to do with the fact that 4th Edition D&D was still mechanically the most solid edition of D&D ever. In addition, Pathfinder never sold better than 4th Edition, according to Hasbro's own quarterly reports. You might be viewing things through play preferences in your own area. In fact, 4th Edition regularly exceeded Wizards' own internal metrics for expected sales. Not that, of course, sales and popularity are any indication of how good the rules work for a game is.

I'm happy the Paizo gang found a way around Hasbro pulling the rug out from underneath them, and am happy they have had continued success (I'm a big fan of the Pathfinder card game, myself, as horrid as its templating is). That Ryan Dancey managed to luck into actually making a decision that saves a game company instead of damns it in his tour of ruin through the RPG landscape is one of the unexpected highlights of the "open source" rules of 3.0 D&D.

Like whatever edition you want, of course; personal play style can cover up a lot of rules bumps in any game with so many social contracts as an RPG. But the rules, and the systems that grew out of them, from 3.x are a hot mess. If I had to run D&D again, I'd still reach for 4th Edition first, then 1st, and then probably 5th.

Imagine situation where everyone's has option to buy his own 'clan deluxe' before even first cycle starts.

I can barely imagine the nightmare this would represent. How do you put such a thing in production?

For 20 years AEG have managed to produce and distribute clan starters.

Stop selling air in boxes and instead fill them with cards. Have you realized that fe. Emperor Edition Gempukku starter cardbox fit enough cards from LCG deluxe expansion? Do you know that Starter Box (that contained nine clans starters) from EE was similiar in size to old LCG Core Starter so you can easily put it on display in shop to attract players?

https://www.l5r.com/emperor-edition/

One of the easiest way to spot ex L5R players on various card tournaments is fact they still use EE boxes or IvE tins to hold their decks becasue they're handy and look nice. And you'll see more of them again when LCG will be released.

Discrepancies in faction popularity would mean that you must estimate correctly how many exemplars of each you need to effectively produce and distribute...

So there's no good product managers, marketing researchers, designers and playtesters in Asmodee? After selling many said "Ah, finally L5R is in good hands. They know their job!". So let they show us their skills!

I know that "manipulated meta" system of LCG (from deluxe to deluxe) is much easier to maintain, so maybe it's highest time to take a risk and start something different that will please both - ex CCG and LCG crowds?

Why should FFG take a risk to please you when they're already quite successful and popular with the model that pleases themselves? We get that you don't like the LCG model. Given who owns the IP at this point, deal with it.

Not to mention we've gone from 120 for a playset, to 250 for a playset with Kempy's model.

I don't care about playsets of cards i don't want.

And the funny part is it doesn't even solve the problem he is talking about. If you buy another clan starter you end up with "useless" neutral cards becasue you had them in the first starter you got!

But If you decide to buy another "starter" you can then easily build another complete competetive deck without moving neutrals between decks. Don't know how you do, but in Conquest i have to use neutral proxies to avoid exchanges.

Imagine situation where everyone's has option to buy his own 'clan deluxe' before even first cycle starts.

I can barely imagine the nightmare this would represent. How do you put such a thing in production?

For 20 years AEG have managed to produce and distribute clan starters.

Stop selling air in boxes and instead fill them with cards. Have you realized that fe. Emperor Edition Gempukku starter cardbox fit enough cards from LCG deluxe expansion? Do you know that Starter Box (that contained nine clans starters) from EE was similiar in size to old LCG Core Starter so you can easily put it on display in shop to attract players?

https://www.l5r.com/emperor-edition/

One of the easiest way to spot ex L5R players on various card tournaments is fact they still use EE boxes or IvE tins to hold their decks becasue they're handy and look nice. And you'll see more of them again when LCG will be released.

Discrepancies in faction popularity would mean that you must estimate correctly how many exemplars of each you need to effectively produce and distribute...

So there's no good product managers, marketing researchers, designers and playtesters in Asmodee? After selling many said "Ah, finally L5R is in good hands. They know their job!". So let they show us their skills!

I know that "manipulated meta" system of LCG (from deluxe to deluxe) is much easier to maintain, so maybe it's highest time to take a risk and start something different that will please both - ex CCG and LCG crowds?

Why should FFG take a risk to please you when they're already quite successful and popular with the model that pleases themselves? We get that you don't like the LCG model. Given who owns the IP at this point, deal with it.

Yes, but FFG proved that they experimenting with Core Sets through years and there's still place for improvements. And now, after years of break from "collectables", we see (SW:Destiny) they start do it again. So everything is possible. Even drastic LCG model changes.

Not to mention we've gone from 120 for a playset, to 250 for a playset with Kempy's model.

I don't care about playsets of cards i don't want.

And the funny part is it doesn't even solve the problem he is talking about. If you buy another clan starter you end up with "useless" neutral cards becasue you had them in the first starter you got!

But If you decide to buy another "starter" you can then easily build another complete competetive deck without moving neutrals between decks. Don't know how you do, but in Conquest i have to use neutral proxies to avoid exchanges.

So now having multiples is good? They really can't win, can they?

What you are asking for is unrealistic. A company can't "know" which multiples you deem as useful or not and then make sure those are the ones that you, kempy, get in your starter box.

Id rather spend 120 dollars on a full playset of the game, and to have 9-12 copies of some cards, than spend 300 (even for what you are asking 30 would be cheap) dollars on 10 starters and have THIRTY copies of neutral cards - now that would be buying useless cards.

You are just going in circles now for the sake of argument. I'm not sure if you are trolling, doing it for attention, to be controversial or what.

Just not going to bother anymore tbh!

So now having multiples is good? They really can't win, can they?

You still miss the point.

1) i don't have to buy another starter becasue it's obsolete if i don't want to play it or splash something from it (impossible with standard CS idea)

2) if i buy second starter, i treat it as other stand alone product, so i don't need mix its "neutral" part with other. I just use them to modify this second clan deck(s).

Your point of view comes from standard LCG fan - own and pay for all cards even if you will probably never play at least 50% of them.

And it also depends on how these "neutral" cards would be designed and how many of them would be required to play or build legal decks. Fe Conquest has low number of neutrals comparing to whole cardbase. They could even get rid of "neutrals" idea! Because why not?

What you are asking for is unrealistic. A company can't "know" which multiples you deem as useful or not and then make sure those are the ones that you, kempy, get in your starter box.

You want to tell me that company don't know what cards would be played and what combinations are more likely? So what's the point of playtest?

You want to say that Clan Starter idea from CCG was completely useless? You want to say all games that offer standalone faction products (like minis, fe Warzone Ressurection with its faction starters) are nothing like a risk becasue it could turn out that noone want to play zombies/elves/mantis?

Id rather spend 120 dollars on a full playset of the game, and to have 9-12 copies of some cards, than spend 300 (even for what you are asking 30 would be cheap) dollars on 10 starters and have THIRTY copies of neutral cards - now that would be buying useless cards.

Your equation miss a fact i was talking about additional cards in "base set", because these starters had to contain "deluxe" number of cards. Just like buying your own "lcg deluxe-like" starter. No 20 (like in CS) but a 2-3 times more. In playsets. It also should cause that game would be rich from the start and offer more instead looking like ravenous dog for these miserable 2 clan cards per month.

(L5R EE Gempukku starters contained 224 cards + 12 cards from 2 rare-only boosters and costed 25$)

I just see many of you are uncritically sticked to "classic" Core Set idea (demo box full of 1-of) in its actual form and don't want even discuss other options. What's really strange, especially in thread where even its creator - like me - doesn't like current CS structure (read 1st post and title again).

As someone who worked at a game store with both a brick and mortar shop and a very successful online store, starter displays like you used to have with L5R and like you still see with MtG are a retailer's nightmare. Inevitably, you have some decks that sell better in an evenly a display with an even number of each deck. This was especially egregious with L5R with its many factions. So you sell out of the popular deck and then you need to decide if it is worth it to buy another display for the few popular decks or whether you will be wasting money because of the decks you are going to have sitting around gathering dust.

Those Gempukku starters? I checked my old store's website. They still have Spider and Crane decks sitting around three years after the fact.

Although it bears mention that certain of Asmodee's policies make it very difficult for them to stock any new FFG products anyway, but I imagine this is a problem for every store, not just the online retailers.

As someone who worked at a game store with both a brick and mortar shop and a very successful online store, starter displays like you used to have with L5R and like you still see with MtG are a retailer's nightmare. Inevitably, you have some decks that sell better in an evenly a display with an even number of each deck. This was especially egregious with L5R with its many factions. So you sell out of the popular deck and then you need to decide if it is worth it to buy another display for the few popular decks or whether you will be wasting money because of the decks you are going to have sitting around gathering dust.

Yes, i've heard that problems with displays but in CCG era many of my friends who managed stationary stores just unpacked unsold starters and used included cards as re-draft prizes in local tourneys.

Back to idea, modify it a bit, and let's treat every starter as stand alone product you may order separately instead in sealed boxes of X? Would it change something?

Those Gempukku starters? I checked my old store's website. They still have Spider and Crane decks sitting around three years after the fact.

It's not serious argument i think. Random shop with random product left. I've also checked online store of Polish official AEG/L5R distributor. Number of Gempukku starters available: 0 even if ther're still Gempukku boosters available.

As someone who worked at a game store with both a brick and mortar shop and a very successful online store, starter displays like you used to have with L5R and like you still see with MtG are a retailer's nightmare. Inevitably, you have some decks that sell better in an evenly a display with an even number of each deck. This was especially egregious with L5R with its many factions. So you sell out of the popular deck and then you need to decide if it is worth it to buy another display for the few popular decks or whether you will be wasting money because of the decks you are going to have sitting around gathering dust.

Yes, i've heard that problems with displays but in CCG era many of my friends who managed stationary stores just unpacked unsold starters and used included cards as re-draft prizes in local tourneys.

Back to idea, modify it a bit, and let's treat every starter as stand alone product you may order separately instead in sealed boxes of X? Would it change something?

Those Gempukku starters? I checked my old store's website. They still have Spider and Crane decks sitting around three years after the fact.

It's not serious argument i think. Random shop with random product left. I've also checked online store of Polish official AEG/L5R distributor. Number of Gempukku starters available: 0 even if ther're still Gempukku boosters available.

Many stores sell those things at a loss if not dumpster them for shelf space once the arc has ended to avoid huge piles of unsold product cluttering their space.

As someone who worked at a game store with both a brick and mortar shop and a very successful online store, starter displays like you used to have with L5R and like you still see with MtG are a retailer's nightmare. Inevitably, you have some decks that sell better in an evenly a display with an even number of each deck. This was especially egregious with L5R with its many factions. So you sell out of the popular deck and then you need to decide if it is worth it to buy another display for the few popular decks or whether you will be wasting money because of the decks you are going to have sitting around gathering dust.

Yes, i've heard that problems with displays but in CCG era many of my friends who managed stationary stores just unpacked unsold starters and used included cards as re-draft prizes in local tourneys.

Back to idea, modify it a bit, and let's treat every starter as stand alone product you may order separately instead in sealed boxes of X? Would it change something?

Those Gempukku starters? I checked my old store's website. They still have Spider and Crane decks sitting around three years after the fact.

It's not serious argument i think. Random shop with random product left. I've also checked online store of Polish official AEG/L5R distributor. Number of Gempukku starters available: 0 even if ther're still Gempukku boosters available.

Many stores sell those things at a loss if not dumpster them for shelf space once the arc has ended to avoid huge piles of unsold product cluttering their space.

Yeah, as they probably do with every CCG stuff that has rotation and not enough support legacy formats. But we never know it's an effect of lack of interest or wrong planned business.

I think that limited shelf space also concerns LCG. When two months ago i was looking for Core Sets for Call of Cthulhu (i've found none!) i was surprised that EVERY boardgame store here got latest three CoC deluxe they will probably never sell. Money lost.

As someone who worked at a game store with both a brick and mortar shop and a very successful online store, starter displays like you used to have with L5R and like you still see with MtG are a retailer's nightmare. Inevitably, you have some decks that sell better in an evenly a display with an even number of each deck. This was especially egregious with L5R with its many factions. So you sell out of the popular deck and then you need to decide if it is worth it to buy another display for the few popular decks or whether you will be wasting money because of the decks you are going to have sitting around gathering dust.

Yes, i've heard that problems with displays but in CCG era many of my friends who managed stationary stores just unpacked unsold starters and used included cards as re-draft prizes in local tourneys.

Back to idea, modify it a bit, and let's treat every starter as stand alone product you may order separately instead in sealed boxes of X? Would it change something?

Those Gempukku starters? I checked my old store's website. They still have Spider and Crane decks sitting around three years after the fact.

It's not serious argument i think. Random shop with random product left. I've also checked online store of Polish official AEG/L5R distributor. Number of Gempukku starters available: 0 even if ther're still Gempukku boosters available.

Many stores sell those things at a loss if not dumpster them for shelf space once the arc has ended to avoid huge piles of unsold product cluttering their space.

Yeah, as they probably do with every CCG stuff that has rotation and not enough support legacy formats. But we never know it's an effect of lack of interest or wrong planned business.

I think that limited shelf space also concerns LCG. When two months ago i was looking for Core Sets for Call of Cthulhu (i've found none!) i was surprised that EVERY boardgame store here got latest three CoC deluxe they will probably never sell. Money lost.

except LCGs are, by their very nature cheaper than CCGs, unless you change the format to be more like a CCG by, for example, turning the base set into individualized faction starters.

As a retailer (as well as a player), I also very much prefer the LCG format to the CCG one, unless your game's name starts with "M" and ends with "agic the Gathering", thank you very much. L5R simply couldn't survive as a CCG but stands a very good chance as a LCG.

I'm very interested with this change of format because I feel like it will fit my style of game. I've started L5R CCG late, which is Ivory, while I've started the RPG in 2nd edition. At first, I wasn't much interested in the CCG, then I started the like it.

As for my style, I like to try some weird stuffs, having fun decks or funny theme. I've played MtG a while back (before 9th edition) and people always like playing with me because I build some funny deck. For example, I build a deck around the rule "Island home" which is a very bad rule, but it was so funny back there and I've won some game with it. However, that 5$ deck was useless when people used their 500+$ deck.

Now, as for L5R, because I like to play different gamestyle, between Ivory and the end of the CCG, I've almost had a deck of each Clan, where they all had different gameplay and used different mechanics. The problem was, I was always missing stuffs to fill my decks... With the new LCG, I think that it may be easier to get my hand on what is really needed. Sure, I intend to have less Clans and probably mainly focus on one Clan (Obviously Crabs), however, I do also want some fun deck to change the pace and have different playstyle. Otherwise, it's just boring...

I have a feeling that it will be a lot cheaper for me to get the cards I need once it will be released, however, I do think it might be tough at first. That being said, it's hard for now to comment on that since we know nothing about the very first release and there's so many questions about it... Like: How many Clans will be released? How many win condition will there be? Will duel stays in the game? Will there still have 2 decks per "deck", etc. I'll admit that "Introducing a common sense Core Set" is very low on my priority list of question that I want to know...

Oh god this again...

It's quite simple - current distribution model allows FFG as a business to market the product and sell it for profit, and it allows us as (potential) consumers to buy the product at a reasonable price and dive in deeper if we want to.

I personally enjoy having more expansions/'modular core sets' in my games because it makes the game more modular, and therefore as a consumer, I have more agency over what I pay for or not.