Episode 82 of the Order 66 podcast was released recently and I have just finished listening. Toward the end a question was asked by GM Hooly about using a Talent and a Force Power at the same time to increase the number of things Force Pips can be spent on (Terrify and Influence Control in this case). The idea of using 2 Talents was also discussed, GM Phil mentioned using Hawk Bat Swoop with the Quick Movement talent to be able to move in attack and move back out for essentially a single action.

Recently a similar idea came to me and I asked the Devs;

Question:

Can multiple talents that require a combat check combined with a force power check be performed at the same time? As an example using the Executioners Essential Kill talent at the same time as Saber Throw? In this situation I imagine you only ever roll your force dice once, but can choose to spend any of the Force Pips on either talents effects. so perhaps a character rolls 3 pips and chooses to spend 2 on Saber throw, then the third on Essential Kill to gain an additional advantage. I completely understand that 2 Talents that require specific and different skills (eg Hawk Bat Swoop and Draw Closer) could not be used at the same time due to the different skills involved. But some don't specify a specific skill.

Answer from Sam Stewart:

No

So it seems this is not something supported in the rules, although my question was rather more specific. I thought I would start a thread to discuss this.

(Edit: yes the answer is in the Dev Answered Questions sticky thread already.)

Had this discussion with Hooly over on the d20 Radio Facebook page, about being able to combine effects by splitting up the Force points (his example was Influence's Control Upgrade to add success/advantage to social skill checks and the Terrify talent). My response was "no" since it amounts to allowing two actions in the same turn.

Nice to see that I was on the right track as per Sam's response above.

So, per the devs, two Talents cannot be used in conjunction, but what about the Force Power plus Talent combo? Same ruling or is that where it gets hazy?

The Terrify/Influence could make sense because Influence adds its effect to an existing Coercion check. Terrify lets you roll a Force Die alongside that Coercion check.

Maybe? I can see that argument go either way, but it sounds pretty similar to cramming two Talents together.

Yeah, it's a bit too much awesomeness.

You already have the option to convert a LS pip (or a DS pip, if you really need it) to a Success or Advantage with most of these talents. That in itself is a whole lotta utility. No need to make it even more powerful/more complicated by conflating actions.

It's kinda like Scathing Tirade and Terrify. They are concise actions, even though they both key off a Coercion check. And you can't use Overwhelm Emotions together with Terrify, since they both have different ways of interpreting Force Dice.

So if I am reading correctly the terrify action would allow you to use the coercion check and roll force die to get additional benefits, the coercion check would be allowed to use force dice to boost the coercion check as well.

I'd like to also call out GM Phil's call on only using dark side pips to boost a coercion check.

The control upgrade referred to allows you to use force pips for social checks iin the same way as enhance does for physical skills, it is a separate and different ability to the basic power. Unlike the base ability in which you are trying to make an opponent more emotional in one direction or another, this ability is more internalized and you are trying to make you better at social skills, you are not affecting the other person except by the result oof your action and the ability does not separate light or dark side pips iin any way.

I originally thought as GM Phil did until I read the ability. I also however feel that he is correct with the other part, but the devs appear different.

So if I am reading correctly the terrify action would allow you to use the coercion check and roll force die to get additional benefits, the coercion check would be allowed to use force dice to boost the coercion check as well.

Terrify is its own action with its own rules.

1) You roll a Coercion check and include Force dice up to your Force rating.

2) You don't need a Force point to succeed (unlike some other Force talents).

3) If you do generate a Force point (if you're a normal heroic character, that is done by rolling a white pip; if you're a dark sider, then you need a black pip to get a Force point), then you may use it to immobilize an affected target.

Terrify is separate from the Influence power, and already has a use for the Force dice, so you can't re-apply a different use for the Force dice (if that is indeed what you're suggesting).

So long as it's not violating any rules of action economy, not sure what the problem is.

You can use other Powers/Talents while having a Force Die committed, so how is using two Powers or Talents (or mix thereof) different?

So long as it's not violating any rules of action economy, not sure what the problem is.

You can use other Powers/Talents while having a Force Die committed, so how is using two Powers or Talents (or mix thereof) different?

Nothing inherently a problem. Confusion can come from Talents that "allow a Force Die" to be rolled as part of the check versus using a Force Rating with a Talent or in a check. If you had a Force Power and Force Talent that both played off the Force Rating, then they'd be balanced on what you rolled and what you could "pay for".

Big things to look at is the Action, Maneuver, Incidental categories, since all Force Powers are an Action and technically all Checks are also Actions, you can't have multiple.

I guess the question is: is there any Force Talents that are not an Action that allow a Force Die or Rating to be used with a check? If not, then FFG are probably doing a good job from allowing the situation to happen "by the rules".

So if I am reading correctly the terrify action would allow you to use the coercion check and roll force die to get additional benefits, the coercion check would be allowed to use force dice to boost the coercion check as well.

Terrify is its own action with its own rules.

1) You roll a Coercion check and include Force dice up to your Force rating.

2) You don't need a Force point to succeed (unlike some other Force talents).

3) If you do generate a Force point (if you're a normal heroic character, that is done by rolling a white pip; if you're a dark sider, then you need a black pip to get a Force point), then you may use it to immobilize an affected target.

Terrify is separate from the Influence power, and already has a use for the Force dice, so you can't re-apply a different use for the Force dice (if that is indeed what you're suggesting).

So imagine someone with 4 willpower 2 coercion and a force rating of 3 with no committed dice. They now roll 3 Force dice for terrify , each single pip from this can be used immobilize an effected target.

Onto the coercion check itself they roll 3 purple against 2 yellow and 2 green , on top of this and as part of the coercion check and because of influence they can roll 3 force dice as part of the check as well (because of influences control upgrade) and each pip can be used to add either an advantage or a success. Each success in this check can be used to disorient one target, with 2 advantage adding to the duration (on all affected targets).

This means that rules as written and confirmed by Sam Stewart, that in the above instance the player gets to use their full bank of force dice twice for the same check.

Now transfer this to talents like Against all Odds from the same talent tree, which allows the player to make a hard resilience check with additional force dice equal to force rating. Each success heals 1 wound, and in this instance you can add 1 success per force pip. The resilience check may also be subject to enhance , control, as well meaning that the normal resilience check also adds force dice to the check so eventually maybe in the above characters instance 2yellow 2 green, 6 white force dice, against 3 purple. If you flip to use the dark side points you could go from incapacitated straight back up to fully healed. This is not a limited ability and triggers when thou are incapacitated, meaning you can keep going until someone rolls that critical over 140

Take Draw Closer, it's an Action, an attack action no less. Specifically says you can use Force Die no greater than Force Rating to earn a pip toward moving the target or adding successes. I think this clearly means you could do that, and then say use your (a portion of?) you remaining FR/D and properly upgraded Enhance Power as a Maneuver to jump up to Medium Range away, then use the Quick Movement incidental (or rather use it first) along w/ remaining FR/D if you had them to get another Maneuver, leaping again, or whatever Manuever you wanted to do (Sup. scathing Tirade? ). You'd have to break the Force Dice out/apart though. Not just roll them all together and assign pips willy nilly, the references clearly state dedicating entire dice to the efforts.

As a GM I would find it hard to argue against Rb's OP example. The Saber Throw Action is clearly a non-Gunnery combat check, not around my book to read the full description tho to see if there is more full language to rule this out.

If we played it this way and it turned out to be OP, I'd stop using it. No fuss, no muss.

Terrify is an action that calls for you to do s fixed difficulty coercion check , both enhance , and the control upgrade effect every check you make. My own argument would be that both the coercion check (which in this case is not the action in itself but is called as part of the terrify action) and the terrify action both say they add your force dice to the pool of the dice, I personally would argue that at this point you couldnt do it twice , and as you are performing the same thing at the same time, IE you add your force dice to the pool and then when you are asked to do it again, you can't because you already have and like GM Phil says you can then choose which power you can use your pips on , so either on influence or terrify or a mix but from one total of pips from one roll of dice dual to FR.

This makes sense to me (although I disagree with having o use dark pips for coercion when using influence -control, and if you want an explanation why I'll happily answer that), however Sam Stewart has ruled previously that both powers get to use a full bank of dice equal to FR for both the talent and the force power with upgrade, so I'm ruled to be wrong on the dice count.

This means that rules as written and confirmed by Sam Stewart, that in the above instance the player gets to use their full bank of force dice twice for the same check.

That sounds really odd...and very unlikely. It goes against what we've previously understood about the game. Do you have a link for his confirmation?

Quoted & linked below:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/98037-influence-and-overwhelm-emotions/#entry968757

Rule Question:

Is there "double-dipping" in EotE for talent Overwhelm Emotions and Force Power Influence Control upgrade for adding white pips to some skills? Overwhelm Emotions adds a Force Die per Force Rating while Influence allows an Influence Power check as part of the dice pool.

Am I correct with my understanding of how these work with Force Rating 1? If I roll a Coerce check I add a force die (from Overwhelm) as well as a power check (from Influence). The net result is a skill check with 2 force dice.

Rule Answer:

No, you cannot "double dip" in this case. You must choose one or the other.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart

Senior RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

Syrath when has Sam Stewart confirmed that Terrify and Influence can be used together in the same Action?

I suspect that the wording relevant to this discussion within the full description of these talents is "Take X Action". These actions are not pure skill checks, they just include a certain skill check as part of the action.

Syrath when has Sam Stewart confirmed that Terrify and Influence can be used together in the same Action?

I suspect that the wording relevant to this discussion within the full description of these talents is "Take X Action". These actions are not pure skill checks, they just include a certain skill check as part of the action.

Actually I thankfully completely misread your post so forgive me on that count, I'd be happy if you have to share the pool. I'll also put a correction on the d20 page as I posted there quoting the same thing.

Ahh, now that makes sense, we all do it.

Im quite sure what Sam was saying is that only one of these abilities can be used at a time. It's not intended that different sources of Force Pip spending be available for resolving a single Action.

Quick Movement is the one Talent I'm not sure on, since it says it works with the next check. But that's where I suspect "performing a skill check" and "using a talent that involves a skill check" are two different and mutually exclusive Actions. This comes back to the list of Actions a character may perform during their turn, where "perform a skill check" and "use a talent" are different things.

I have a question that might be related? Can you use Saber Throw and Falling Avalanche at the same time? I was wondering since I have a character who might be able to do this and a player who's considering it. Or would it fall under the whole double action thing?

I found the relevant rule that covers this. When reading on page 280 F&D

The ability sometimes specifies how many force dice he uses, however, the number of force dice he adds to the pool can NEVER exceed his current force rating.

I would think Falling Avalanche would work with any Lightsaber check, including Throw, since it can't be performed as an action all on its own. That's where I'm unsure about Quick Movement too.

I found the relevant rule that covers this. When reading on page 280 F&D

The ability sometimes specifies how many force dice he uses, however, the number of force dice he adds to the pool can NEVER exceed his current force rating.

Yet he still said No

I would think Falling Avalanche would work with any Lightsaber check, including Throw, since it can't be performed as an action all on its own. That's where I'm unsure about Quick Movement too.

Ditto with quick movement, however the dice gained from the quick movement check means that the next check already had the force dice added to it, so for example if you use quick movement then try to use terrify, You could make the coercion check with your force dice added then from the result you could have it let you spend the pips to gain a maneuver in which you can move OR you could get the benifit of being to immobilize people but not both.

Quick Movement is the one Talent I'm not sure on, since it says it works with the next check. But that's where I suspect "performing a skill check" and "using a talent that involves a skill check" are two different and mutually exclusive Actions. This comes back to the list of Actions a character may perform during their turn, where "perform a skill check" and "use a talent" are different things.

I'd say you're still limited to your Force Rating. I'd say that, if your Force Rating is currently in the process of being used for X effect, if cannot also be used for Y effect. Now if Quick Movement was its own incidental where you rolled your Force dice then and there, and then you did the action, there'd be no problem. But since it adds your Force dice to your next skill check...yeah, no dice

Falling Avalanche, on the other hand, just adds damage to a Lightsaber combat check. Saber Throw is a Lightsaber combat check. No problem there. The problem exists when someone tried to do "X Action" while they're already performing "Y Action."

Or, trying to add Force dice when they've got none left

Well, I suppose if one is really determined for an official answer regarding mixing Terrify and Influence, they could ask the devs.

Well, I suppose if one is really determined for an official answer regarding mixing Terrify and Influence, they could ask the devs.

I could see the interpretation being, "It says to add Force dice up to my Force rating...so what if I add 2 of my dice for Terrify and the other 1 for Influence?" Technically, I think, the rules allow for that.

BUT, then that just gets really sticky and complicated and messy. And I don't like sticky, complicated, messy dice pools. I like dice pools that, when they fall, I know exactly what to do with them.

Yes , this is covered by the rule I quoted on page 280, no matter the check you can only add a maximum of your force rating when it comes to adding force rating so FR=4 AND one committed die and most white dice you can add to any check is 3 , iirc it does call out you could add less. So you could add 2 dice for one effect and one die for the other as long as you don't add more.