Support teams would make VSDs so much better

VSD Stalwart : Add a support team slot

VSD Stalwart : Add a support team slot

A title en par with Demolisher.

The VSD1 gets no play on my table and its rare in the local meta. Slow and short range is a concept best saved for off the table I find. I’ve always felt the VSDII is priced right, and the VSD1 should be cheaper.

I am right there with you, I never use the VSD 1, but the 2 I use often. I think that black dice should only be used for squadrons.

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The Victory II-class Star Destroyer, also known as the Victory II-class Destroyer, was an improved version of the Victory I-class Star Destroyer. The Victory II-class was a more direct predecessor to the Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

Though outwardly similar to the Victory I-class Star Destroyer, the Victory II-class was designed for deep space combat. With this in mind, the designers fitted the ships with Hoersch-Kessel Drive, Inc. engines in place of the Victory I's LF9 ion engines to overcome weaknesses of the earlier design. Where the LF9 ion engines could not produce sufficient acceleration to engage faster and newer vessels in ship-to-ship combat, the new drives were far more powerful and added significantly to the newer ship's sublight speed and maneuverability.[3]

Besides its faster sublight speed, the most notable change was the addition of ion cannons, more turbolasers, tractor beam projectors, and the removal of the banks of concussion missile tubes. The Victory II, however, did retain its predecessor's ability to operate within planetary atmospheres.[2]

The old imperial sourcebook is just fluff now but still, the idea was obviously to make a better, faster ship.

http://kdyards.com/ships.view.php?id=213

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

The Victory II-class Star Destroyer, also known as the Victory II-class Destroyer, was an improved version of the Victory I-class Star Destroyer. The Victory II-class was a more direct predecessor to the Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

Though outwardly similar to the Victory I-class Star Destroyer, the Victory II-class was designed for deep space combat. With this in mind, the designers fitted the ships with Hoersch-Kessel Drive, Inc. engines in place of the Victory I's LF9 ion engines to overcome weaknesses of the earlier design. Where the LF9 ion engines could not produce sufficient acceleration to engage faster and newer vessels in ship-to-ship combat, the new drives were far more powerful and added significantly to the newer ship's sublight speed and maneuverability.[3]

Besides its faster sublight speed, the most notable change was the addition of ion cannons, more turbolasers, tractor beam projectors, and the removal of the banks of concussion missile tubes. The Victory II, however, did retain its predecessor's ability to operate within planetary atmospheres.[2]

The old imperial sourcebook is just fluff now but still, the idea was obviously to make a better, faster ship.

http://kdyards.com/ships.view.php?id=213

Yes - planets can't evade VSD I - no matter how slow they are. Its a vehicle to conquer systems and they excel in ground support in terms of area bombardment. There is not even a need of having Tie Bombers. The VSD itself is doing the job. Of course Tie Bombers would be more precise - but who needs precision when you could just flatten large areas. Whereas the VSD II was designed to excel against capital ships.

If I wanted to make the VSD more useful in custom games how many points should it cost to have the maneuverability of an ISD?

+8?

You could use the Republic-era VSD card from Shipyards: https://armadashipyards.com/2015/08/29/victory-class-star-destroyer/

It retains the original VSD 1's stats, but can equip Engine Techs (and ECM!).

If FFG is reading this (do they read these forums?) maybe they'd consider fixing VSD II as a download & print card or in a campaign expansion.

Personally I'd buy one or two VSDs extra if they did.

You'd have to convince them its Broken, first.

And not just anecdotally... Actual, physical evidence...

Then you'd have to post it up, and hope that they actually read it - they do read the forums. But you can't submit it to them - they don't take games design information unwarranted or unannounced or un-asked for.

And you'd have to find a way to rigorously defend your statements against anyone and everyone who disagreed with you - because if anyone got a disagreement through, it would invalidate the proof that it is "Broken".

Because we do not know what is coming beyond Wave 5 that may or may not make a difference... Heck, we don't even know what of wave 5 may or may not make a difference yet.

LOL! In that case I only need to convince my friend and opponent. Since there's no chance there'll ever be a regular tournament in my neck of the woods I don't really need to walk the path of Sisyphus to get a usable VSD.

A color printer will do

I have played many games giving VSDs with engine Techs just so they can stay in the planned battle. No one playing the games even noted that they should not get them or that they were over powered with them.

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

This is reflected by the defensive refit slot replacing one offensive slot and all black dice replaced by reds and blues.

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

This is reflected by the defensive refit slot replacing one offensive slot and all black dice replaced by reds and blues.

Not really fitting. More shield should be represented by .... more shields. Less Point Defense should be represented by worse Anti-Squadron (altough the ISD I inflicts 1,25 damage against squadrons on short range and 0,75 on medium, while the ISD-II puts out 1 on medium and close range...). And why should a replaced offensive slot represent having more weapons? I could see you point if it had a defensive slot more.

Its just a little bit sad, that the ship versions are so similiar with just different dice pools (mostly black or blue).

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

This is reflected by the defensive refit slot replacing one offensive slot and all black dice replaced by reds and blues.

Not really fitting. More shield should be represented by .... more shields. Less Point Defense should be represented by worse Anti-Squadron (altough the ISD I inflicts 1,25 damage against squadrons on short range and 0,75 on medium, while the ISD-II puts out 1 on medium and close range...). And why should a replaced offensive slot represent having more weapons? I could see you point if it had a defensive slot more.

Its just a little bit sad, that the ship versions are so similiar with just different dice pools (mostly black or blue).

If you want to argue along that way you have to face the fact that star destroyers or the bigger ships in general are too weak by far compered to the other ships - for example if you compare to the CR90 with an ISD - shouldn't the ISD have about 20 times the firepower of a CR90? Its a game after all. A representation is there to reflect the differences between the ISD and ISD II - for me its sufficient the way it is. Your 'more shields' is represented by the Redundant Shields upgrade card, which comes in the box. As well as the weapon upgrades are represented by the 'Heavy Turbolaser Turret' and 'Slaved Turrets' cards. If the ISD II had better base stats, it would be more expensive and thus even more difficult to get 2 of them in a list.

The topic is that the VSD II should get access to speed 3. Speed 2 and speed 2+1 is a BIG difference in Armada. Engine Techs would completely transform the VSD II into actually an agile battle ship - instead of a slow gunboat. For a big price. You not only had do pay the additional 8 points for Engine Techs - but also you would need to spam navigation commands. This would reflect that the VSD could only reach and maintain the battle speed of 3 with great effort and thus its design came to its limits. This opens the path to design to the next generation of battleships: the ISD

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

This is reflected by the defensive refit slot replacing one offensive slot and all black dice replaced by reds and blues.

Not really fitting. More shield should be represented by .... more shields. Less Point Defense should be represented by worse Anti-Squadron (altough the ISD I inflicts 1,25 damage against squadrons on short range and 0,75 on medium, while the ISD-II puts out 1 on medium and close range...). And why should a replaced offensive slot represent having more weapons? I could see you point if it had a defensive slot more.

Its just a little bit sad, that the ship versions are so similiar with just different dice pools (mostly black or blue).

If you want to argue along that way you have to face the fact that star destroyers or the bigger ships in general are too weak by far compered to the other ships - for example if you compare to the CR90 with an ISD - shouldn't the ISD have about 20 times the firepower of a CR90? Its a game after all. A representation is there to reflect the differences between the ISD and ISD II - for me its sufficient the way it is. Your 'more shields' is represented by the Redundant Shields upgrade card, which comes in the box. As well as the weapon upgrades are represented by the 'Heavy Turbolaser Turret' and 'Slaved Turrets' cards. If the ISD II had better base stats, it would be more expensive and thus even more difficult to get 2 of them in a list.

The topic is that the VSD II should get access to speed 3. Speed 2 and speed 2+1 is a BIG difference in Armada. Engine Techs would completely transform the VSD II into actually an agile battle ship - instead of a slow gunboat. For a big price. You not only had do pay the additional 8 points for Engine Techs - but also you would need to spam navigation commands. This would reflect that the VSD could only reach and maintain the battle speed of 3 with great effort and thus its design came to its limits. This opens the path to design to the next generation of battleships: the ISD

That may the most ellequant way of phrasing that argument, that I have heard to date. Many of us have been trying to make this argument since the core set came out. It was only magnified by the ISD stats. Thank you for saying it so well.

The VSD was always noted as being slow in sub-light speed. They see wide spread use in my area, with good success. With wave 3/4 being introduced there are several ways to support my slower Victory Class vessels and keep them in the fight. As a matter of fact a VSD-I makes up my core combat ship within my fleet which has done quite well as of late. Doesn't need an upgrade, just a change in tactics and thinking.

The VSD-1 was. The VSD-2 was specifically a reaction to "OMG Everything just says kthxbye" when we roll into town. It's the biggest mistake of Armada IMO that they have the same speed chart. (Ok, then there's Demo...)

Both the ISD and VSD were vastly updated and not just modified in ther II-Versions, its a bit sad armada didnt reflect that. Its a bit like saying the T-34 Mod. 41 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. B were just other versions of the T34/85 or Panzerkampfw. IV Ausf. H with more black instead of red die.

The difference between ISD I and ISD II seems quite ok for me. A pity that they lose one offensive retrofit slot - but I can live with that. A support crew slot would probably overpower the ISD. You could argue that the front or the sides could be one red or one blue more for the ISD II version - but this would result in higher base costs.

I think that the VSD II is the biggest loser in the Imperial Navy.

However the ISD II had much more shields, was more armoured and better armed (with less Point Defense Weapons although).

This is reflected by the defensive refit slot replacing one offensive slot and all black dice replaced by reds and blues.

Not really fitting. More shield should be represented by .... more shields. Less Point Defense should be represented by worse Anti-Squadron (altough the ISD I inflicts 1,25 damage against squadrons on short range and 0,75 on medium, while the ISD-II puts out 1 on medium and close range...). And why should a replaced offensive slot represent having more weapons? I could see you point if it had a defensive slot more.

Its just a little bit sad, that the ship versions are so similiar with just different dice pools (mostly black or blue).

If you want to argue along that way you have to face the fact that star destroyers or the bigger ships in general are too weak by far compered to the other ships - for example if you compare to the CR90 with an ISD - shouldn't the ISD have about 20 times the firepower of a CR90? Its a game after all. A representation is there to reflect the differences between the ISD and ISD II - for me its sufficient the way it is. Your 'more shields' is represented by the Redundant Shields upgrade card, which comes in the box. As well as the weapon upgrades are represented by the 'Heavy Turbolaser Turret' and 'Slaved Turrets' cards. If the ISD II had better base stats, it would be more expensive and thus even more difficult to get 2 of them in a list.

The topic is that the VSD II should get access to speed 3. Speed 2 and speed 2+1 is a BIG difference in Armada. Engine Techs would completely transform the VSD II into actually an agile battle ship - instead of a slow gunboat. For a big price. You not only had do pay the additional 8 points for Engine Techs - but also you would need to spam navigation commands. This would reflect that the VSD could only reach and maintain the battle speed of 3 with great effort and thus its design came to its limits. This opens the path to design to the next generation of battleships: the ISD

That may the most ellequant way of phrasing that argument, that I have heard to date. Many of us have been trying to make this argument since the core set came out. It was only magnified by the ISD stats. Thank you for saying it so well.

Feel free to spread the word