To be fair Expose wouldn't have really worked either.

Why? I mean, it wouldn't have been good, but it would have worked.

I think he means precisely that, even expose could be use with Youngster, virtually in every case, it simply better to spend this action in a focus, mathematically is the same improvement in offense, but much more versatile.

And you don't need Youngster for a focus.

Draconis is correct: Expose has a higher variance (it can give a three die hit) but it comes at the cost of exposing you for an attack that's not actually better than a focused one because that three die hit is so improbable.

It's worth it if you already have a modifier like Howlrunner I believe but as is focus is better in every way save for the slim chance of a triple hit.

3 hits are 12.5% chance, 2 hits or more are 50%, 1 hit or more 87.5%.

Which leads indeed to the same average amount of damage against agility zero targets.

The interesting thing is: Against agility 4 it turns to be better and if you can add a focus it blows up to being a lot better than 2 dice with focus+rerolls. If you combine 3 dice with howlrunner it becomes 20% better against 3 agi than howlrunner with focus. If you add the usually ace focus+evade token stack those 3 dice have a twice as high chance to strip the tokens as well and do their chance to do damage is twice as high as well. Basically that 12.5% chance of three hits (or 31.5% with howlrunner) is a significant contribution to pierce through token stacks of heavy defensive ships. Crackshot moves this a little bit in favor of the focus token, but 3 attack dice + howlrunner is still 40% more damage than 2 dice + focus.

The bigger issue is imo that you lose one crackshot as youngster would have to take expose and that 20% damage is increased is not worth the 6 points you spend on it.

I believe so. I felt bad in our games as he kept trying to say he could use it.

I asked him to read both cards out loud. I asked does it say action on opportunist, and he said "no" but came back with "it was in an ffg article" at the time I didn't remember for sure about the article, but pointed out ffg has been wrong in many articles. Though after the tournament realized he was probably thinking expose.

Now if he still played his way or the correct way after our game I don't know, but he wasn't at any top tables. Mind you this was a small tournament of about 16 players or so.

I really did feel bad though because it seemed like an honest misunderstanding, and I ruined his whole list without having to destroy any ships. When I initially saw his list I thought interesting and wondered why he had opportunist on youngster, and then when he tried to pass off his ability was when I realized he made a big mistake in the design, and actually he wanted a TO called over which I did.

Yeah, it's always a bid saddening when a misinterpretation or misunderstanding affects a squad. I once flew against a guy trying to feed Vessery TLs with Academy Pilots. And since this was before Veterans came out, I really wanted to see a Defender shine.

People are going to get rules wrong. If they don't even know that a TIE Fighter can't target lock, you might as well just errata Palpatine out of the game and errata Tarkin into it. Yeah, they'll get it wrong but they're also getting basic rules wrong too.

NO! You have to hit first in order to change a crit into 2 hits with Bossk.

NO! Asteroids do not give you stress!

NO! You are not actually forced to shoot at Biggs. Firstly, firing is optional. Secondly, other ships are only untargetable if they're range 1 of Biggs. If they're far away from Biggs and you have a shot on both, then you can choose.

We can't hold the game back in order to baby people who can't RtFC.

In fact, if a change so significant as to ban Palpatine and allow Tarkin into Standard were to happen, news would spread very quickly even to people who don't normally read the FAQ themselves. A newbie would show up to an event, and someone would ask him if he heard about the new FAQ and how Palpatine is banned. Do you think many events were played with the old decloak rules after the nerf? How many were played with no half health, half large base MoV scoring after that nerf?

Trying to keep confusion down about rules shouldn't be considered "babying" people. If people have trouble with base rules, why throw more crap at them that's not needed?

And that's the point of contention. Does something need to be changed about Palp? You are well documented about your opinion on Palp. Very well documented. But I'm still unconvinced that Palp needs to be taken out of normal play. To me, the removal of an annoying card that I can beat isn't worth the confusion and potential cost of players. If this was over a card I felt was actually messing with the game, I'd still be very resistant to changing it, but would accept it if there didn't seem to be any other fix. But it's not.

I know Palp is a sore spot for you, but not everyone (even non-imperial players) has the same problem with Palp.

I believe so. I felt bad in our games as he kept trying to say he could use it.

I asked him to read both cards out loud. I asked does it say action on opportunist, and he said "no" but came back with "it was in an ffg article" at the time I didn't remember for sure about the article, but pointed out ffg has been wrong in many articles. Though after the tournament realized he was probably thinking expose.

Now if he still played his way or the correct way after our game I don't know, but he wasn't at any top tables. Mind you this was a small tournament of about 16 players or so.

I really did feel bad though because it seemed like an honest misunderstanding, and I ruined his whole list without having to destroy any ships. When I initially saw his list I thought interesting and wondered why he had opportunist on youngster, and then when he tried to pass off his ability was when I realized he made a big mistake in the design, and actually he wanted a TO called over which I did.

Yeah, it's always a bid saddening when a misinterpretation or misunderstanding affects a squad. I once flew against a guy trying to feed Vessery TLs with Academy Pilots. And since this was before Veterans came out, I really wanted to see a Defender shine.

People are going to get rules wrong. If they don't even know that a TIE Fighter can't target lock, you might as well just errata Palpatine out of the game and errata Tarkin into it. Yeah, they'll get it wrong but they're also getting basic rules wrong too.

NO! You have to hit first in order to change a crit into 2 hits with Bossk.

NO! Asteroids do not give you stress!

NO! You are not actually forced to shoot at Biggs. Firstly, firing is optional. Secondly, other ships are only untargetable if they're range 1 of Biggs. If they're far away from Biggs and you have a shot on both, then you can choose.

We can't hold the game back in order to baby people who can't RtFC.

In fact, if a change so significant as to ban Palpatine and allow Tarkin into Standard were to happen, news would spread very quickly even to people who don't normally read the FAQ themselves. A newbie would show up to an event, and someone would ask him if he heard about the new FAQ and how Palpatine is banned. Do you think many events were played with the old decloak rules after the nerf? How many were played with no half health, half large base MoV scoring after that nerf?

Trying to keep confusion down about rules shouldn't be considered "babying" people. If people have trouble with base rules, why throw more crap at them that's not needed?

And that's the point of contention. Does something need to be changed about Palp? You are well documented about your opinion on Palp. Very well documented. But I'm still unconvinced that Palp needs to be taken out of normal play. To me, the removal of an annoying card that I can beat isn't worth the confusion and potential cost of players. If this was over a card I felt was actually messing with the game, I'd still be very resistant to changing it, but would accept it if there didn't seem to be any other fix. But it's not.

I know Palp is a sore spot for you, but not everyone (even non-imperial players) has the same problem with Palp.

I would argue that the fix would be so significant that most people would hear about it.

Let's not fix the Phantom because it would be confusing to 3 people, right?

Let's not do half health, half MoV for large ships because it will confuse people, right?

I think that you're making a big deal out of nothing, and I'm going to preempt your response that I'm making a big deal out of nothing by trying to ban Palp by *insert rant about how overpowered Palpatine is here*.

If someone shows up to an event with quad Lambda, 8x Tactician and those are the only cards they brought, and no one was willing to let them borrow cards, their list would be illegal. And they'd have to use it at 92 points. Should Tactician not have been errated?

Should Daredevil not have been errated?

I believe so. I felt bad in our games as he kept trying to say he could use it.

I asked him to read both cards out loud. I asked does it say action on opportunist, and he said "no" but came back with "it was in an ffg article" at the time I didn't remember for sure about the article, but pointed out ffg has been wrong in many articles. Though after the tournament realized he was probably thinking expose.

Now if he still played his way or the correct way after our game I don't know, but he wasn't at any top tables. Mind you this was a small tournament of about 16 players or so.

I really did feel bad though because it seemed like an honest misunderstanding, and I ruined his whole list without having to destroy any ships. When I initially saw his list I thought interesting and wondered why he had opportunist on youngster, and then when he tried to pass off his ability was when I realized he made a big mistake in the design, and actually he wanted a TO called over which I did.

Yeah, it's always a bid saddening when a misinterpretation or misunderstanding affects a squad. I once flew against a guy trying to feed Vessery TLs with Academy Pilots. And since this was before Veterans came out, I really wanted to see a Defender shine.

People are going to get rules wrong. If they don't even know that a TIE Fighter can't target lock, you might as well just errata Palpatine out of the game and errata Tarkin into it. Yeah, they'll get it wrong but they're also getting basic rules wrong too.

NO! You have to hit first in order to change a crit into 2 hits with Bossk.

NO! Asteroids do not give you stress!

NO! You are not actually forced to shoot at Biggs. Firstly, firing is optional. Secondly, other ships are only untargetable if they're range 1 of Biggs. If they're far away from Biggs and you have a shot on both, then you can choose.

We can't hold the game back in order to baby people who can't RtFC.

In fact, if a change so significant as to ban Palpatine and allow Tarkin into Standard were to happen, news would spread very quickly even to people who don't normally read the FAQ themselves. A newbie would show up to an event, and someone would ask him if he heard about the new FAQ and how Palpatine is banned. Do you think many events were played with the old decloak rules after the nerf? How many were played with no half health, half large base MoV scoring after that nerf?

Trying to keep confusion down about rules shouldn't be considered "babying" people. If people have trouble with base rules, why throw more crap at them that's not needed?

And that's the point of contention. Does something need to be changed about Palp? You are well documented about your opinion on Palp. Very well documented. But I'm still unconvinced that Palp needs to be taken out of normal play. To me, the removal of an annoying card that I can beat isn't worth the confusion and potential cost of players. If this was over a card I felt was actually messing with the game, I'd still be very resistant to changing it, but would accept it if there didn't seem to be any other fix. But it's not.

I know Palp is a sore spot for you, but not everyone (even non-imperial players) has the same problem with Palp.

I would argue that the fix would be so significant that most people would hear about it.

Let's not fix the Phantom because it would be confusing to 3 people, right?

Let's not do half health, half MoV for large ships because it will confuse people, right?

I think that you're making a big deal out of nothing, and I'm going to preempt your response that I'm making a big deal out of nothing by trying to ban Palp by *insert rant about how overpowered Palpatine is here*.

If someone shows up to an event with quad Lambda, 8x Tactician and those are the only cards they brought, and no one was willing to let them borrow cards, their list would be illegal. And they'd have to use it at 92 points. Should Tactician not have been errated?

Should Daredevil not have been errated?

Anyway, if people had cards banned or nerf every time they thought something was overpowered, there be no game left.

What you considered over powered other may not. Hell I've beaten great players who were flying palp aces. I've also lost my fair share, so to me that seems fairly balanced.

If something was to be nerfed my opinion would be the scouts stats, but there is no way to go about doing that.

It's one thing to make something limited, it's another to change something from regular play to epic. If anything someday XWing may have a ban list, but it won't be today or tomorrow. It will only be a matter of time before something worse falls through play testing and becomes broken. The emperor is not broken. Works fairly well, and ad I said I've beaten it from vessery with 3 crew carrying bombers, to dengeraoo and just about anything in between. Once you have a grasp how to deal with it, it's not so bad. It's still tough, but so isn't dengeraoo.

In fact I think denger is worse than palp aces. Yet I don't make 3 threads a day about banning zuckass, or nerfing dengar. I've beaten the list probably as much as I've lost to it, I've gone undefeated with it, and I feel it's a little over the top. Even more so than the palp aces you hate so much

My buddy laughed his ass off as we were driving home from the regionals and I was talking about how one of my games I shot a ship, and I was hoping he would shoot back with it (which he did and I killed it) i mean come on, when have you ever wanted someone to shoot at you in this game? Never, yet dengeraoo your just wishing for it. Seems to wrong if you ask me

First: What happened with the agromech didn't change anything on the card. It was a rules modification or clarification. If someone showed up with U-Boats and agromechs, they'd still be able to play, though a portion of their list wouldn't work as expected. That's my whole point. Most things changed just alters timing or how some cards interact with each other. If you find out a combo doesn't work like you thought because of an FAQ, well that sucks, but you're still in the game. You still have a chance. Changing the text on Palp would cause full on disqualifications, baring someone who took time out of their lives to come play X-Wing.

Second: You've given good examples of what happens when things change. People get shafted in one way or another. If this "Palp-Tarkin Swap" went through, it would be just like all the others. Do we really want to encourage more of that?

I will admit, I'm coming from not thinking Palp is OP. He's powerful, but fine as is. This whole swap idea was interesting from a theoretical stand point, but in my mind, the potiental draw backs far out weigh the supposed benefits.

Secondly, the point I was trying to make was that FFG has done stuff like this before when they felt it was for the good of the game, so precedents exist.

Regarding Palpatine I think he's kinda OP, but I don't find it an issue. X-wing is not a perfectly balanced game, some things are clearly better than others. While Palpatine is very strong, I don't think he's too strong compared to the other top tier stuff in the game.

PS: I'm genuinely curious if the Agromech stuff really happened to people and how they reacted, since the FAQ dropped on a Friday night and was effective immediately.

I would argue that the fix would be so significant that most people would hear about it.

Let's not fix the Phantom because it would be confusing to 3 people, right?

Let's not do half health, half MoV for large ships because it will confuse people, right?

I think that you're making a big deal out of nothing, and I'm going to preempt your response that I'm making a big deal out of nothing by trying to ban Palp by *insert rant about how overpowered Palpatine is here*.

If someone shows up to an event with quad Lambda, 8x Tactician and those are the only cards they brought, and no one was willing to let them borrow cards, their list would be illegal. And they'd have to use it at 92 points. Should Tactician not have been errated?

Should Daredevil not have been errated?

I'll give you that most player would hear about a "fix" like this, but not all and that doesn't save people who pick up an old Raider pack down the line.

Your examples of the Phantom and half damage for large ships are actually examples of things the designers thought were messing with the game. So much so, they decided to risk an errata, dealing with the potential problems I've mentioned. You show me the game designers talking about how they think Palp is broken, then I might change my tune. Also, the Half damage example is poor because it gave something rather then took away.

Your 8 Tactician example is exactly what I don't want to happen with other cards, including Palp. Again, the designers decided it was worth the risk to change it post-launch.

And Daredevil is more of a clarification that makes it better rather then removes it from regular play.

Now, if you wanna believe that I'm making a big deal about nothing, that's your business. At least now you know that I feel the same way about all your rants, and not just about Palp.

First: What happened with the agromech didn't change anything on the card. It was a rules modification or clarification. If someone showed up with U-Boats and agromechs, they'd still be able to play, though a portion of their list wouldn't work as expected. That's my whole point. Most things changed just alters timing or how some cards interact with each other. If you find out a combo doesn't work like you thought because of an FAQ, well that sucks, but you're still in the game. You still have a chance. Changing the text on Palp would cause full on disqualifications, baring someone who took time out of their lives to come play X-Wing.

Second: You've given good examples of what happens when things change. People get shafted in one way or another. If this "Palp-Tarkin Swap" went through, it would be just like all the others. Do we really want to encourage more of that?

I will admit, I'm coming from not thinking Palp is OP. He's powerful, but fine as is. This whole swap idea was interesting from a theoretical stand point, but in my mind, the potiental draw backs far out weigh the supposed benefits.

First of all, I think the distinction between 'due to FAQ my squad is now illegal' and 'due to FAQ the combo I built my squad around no longer functions' is largely academic. Both turn having come to the tournament into a waste of time. In my example, it's not like a guy running 3 boats with post FAQ agromechs has any real chance. His squad simply doesn't work anymore.

Secondly, the point I was trying to make was that FFG has done stuff like this before when they felt it was for the good of the game, so precedents exist.

Regarding Palpatine I think he's kinda OP, but I don't find it an issue. X-wing is not a perfectly balanced game, some things are clearly better than others. While Palpatine is very strong, I don't think he's too strong compared to the other top tier stuff in the game.

PS: I'm genuinely curious if the Agromech stuff really happened to people and how they reacted, since the FAQ dropped on a Friday night and was effective immediately.

Now, I recognize this is a matter of opinion. While I don't agree with your stance, I can accept that other people can feel that way. Which, to me, is further reason to use card erratas as sparingly as possible.

The "Secondly" point I will concede. There is precedent for it. I just want people to view it as a scalpel of last resort rather then the hammer of "fixing" everything.

PS: I'm sure there were a few U-Boat players that missed the signs and got shafted. I'm sure most were mad, but I hope they still managed to get some good games in.

This is the first time I've ever fully agreed with a PGS post.

If Palpatine had been Epic only, and Tarkin was allowed in normal games on Large and Small ships, perhaps with his Range nerfed to 1-3, we'd still have the same basic archetype of a support Lambda with two aces, but in a manner that feels much more fair and less arbitrary.

While it's categorically not happening... I must confess I kinda like it. Half Kyle Katarn, half Palob... and you don't have a fly a HWK to do it.

And it helps the action-starved ships more than the action-glutted ones.

Huh. Neat.

Oh well!

Tarkin as a non-huge ship only crew would have been interesting and made certain builds less terrifying (I'm looking at you, U-Boats). While I don't believe Palp is unbalanced, I do think having Tarkin over Palp would have been more interesting.

Unfortunately, too late now.

I have to admit I agree with PGS. I think the game would have been in a much better position if tarkin was standard instead of palp.

It seems like this idea has a lot of support. If everyone wants it to happen, could we not just bug Alex and Frank about it until they change it?

What is FFG's mailing address?

As I said, too late now. In order to do this, you would need a reprint or errata. Reprint will mean they sell it to us, which is unfair to those who paid for the card to play with the card. Errata could mean someone misses it and shows up to a tournament with an invalid squad, and are disqualified.

As a theoretical possibility, having Tarkin over Palp is interesting. Realistically, however, that boat sailed a long time ago.

They errated Tactician and I went out of my way to acquire 8 of those for a certain build.

They handed out C-3PO promos like candy.

FFG shouldn't hold the game back for people that paid $30 for a single upgrade card on the secondary market. And people that bought an entire Raider just for Palpatine get to use Tarkin instead, they won't be screwed.

Great idea. Nice balance. Send it on in!

It seems like this idea has a lot of support. If everyone wants it to happen, could we not just bug Alex and Frank about it until they change it?

What is FFG's mailing address?

I think is more the "vocal surprise" of being agreed with you , than a massive support of the idea.

But... what can i say? I'm equally surprised. This world never let my sense of awe down...

I think it could have been a good idea. Better than the real one.

However, I don't think it's going to be something that FFG will change. SabineKey explained it perfectly.

But, good idea anyway.

I have to admit I agree with PGS. I think the game would have been in a much better position if tarkin was standard instead of palp.

Now why can't more of your posts be like this?

Logical, constructive discussion that aims to solve an issue.

edit: also I agree 100%

edit #2: how much would this suck for players who bought Palp separately though...

So I went to Kinko's and printed off the first post of this thread.

What promo cards should I bribe Alex Davy with, and how many of each?

"...let go your anger."

Oh, another pointless thread with absurd ideas.

Some of you, instead of being armchair experts should actually play this game and learn to be good at it.

As it is Palp Aces are ridiculously easy to counter - Dengaroo, Crakcswarms, Trandoshan Slaver with JM5K, Double K-Wings, Omega Leader, Wes Janson, R3A2, Zuckuss, to name a few, all those things counter Aces HARD.

What I see in this thread is a happy talk between bunch of noobs, who got no knowledge of this game whatsoever, trying to push idea that Palpatine is in some way broken.

Well I got sad news for you, he is not broken, you just need to learn to play this game and effectively counter aces.

When I grow up, I wanna have a mustache so male-awesome and badass as yours.

And learn to fly as well, of course...

Even though I think this idea is unnecessary, I'd actually be fine with it, as it makes my Decimator WAY more powerful than it currently is.

The real problem with Decimators is that they can't seat Ysanne, Rebel Captive and Palpatine all at the same time. This fixes that, and still lets you rob defensive modifiers from your opponent after your ace explodes. Would be willing to take the hit to my ace if I could strip focus tokens and seat Tarkin, Ysanne and Captive.

Even though I think this idea is unnecessary, I'd actually be fine with it, as it makes my Decimator WAY more powerful than it currently is.

The real problem with Decimators is that they can't seat Ysanne, Rebel Captive and Palpatine all at the same time. This fixes that, and still lets you rob defensive modifiers from your opponent after your ace explodes. Would be willing to take the hit to my ace if I could strip focus tokens and seat Tarkin, Ysanne and Captive.

So the interesting thing about this is that it can still be overcome with evade tokens, and firing ordnance with target locks. You could also overcome such a thing with shear numbers.

Against a decimator like yours, AC Tempests could just evade for example.

Tarkin's ability is powerful certainly, but it's still not as good as Palp in most situations.

You could also do something like a Tarkin Lambda and a 1 point upgrade, and 6 Academy Pilots. Tarkin takes a focus off of an important ship, and the Academy Pilots capitalize on it.

It's still less obnoxious and more interesting and easy to deal with than Palp Aces.

Palpatine doesn't seem broken to me. He amounts to 1 free evade, once a round (or a crit, but to be honest I would always save for defense). In perspective of aces, sure you can argue 1 hull on soontir fel is worth 11 and some odd points. What if palpatine helped an academy tie? (4 points, right?). How about the new x7 defender. For -2 points you get one free evade once per round. On a Glaive squadron pilot that is 11 points of value right? Is that broken too? How about crack shot? A 1 point card, but let's say it is used to push through a point of damage on soontir that's 11 points for 1, is that broken?

I just have to say, I understand that palpatine is a threat that you must prepare for, but he's not awesome just by himself. If him helping aces and saving you points effectively by doing so is really and truly broken then maybe just errata him to only work on lower pilot skills. Then he becomes effectively useless, and if I'm not wrong (I probably am), that seems to be what's wanted on this thread.

Oh, another pointless thread with absurd ideas.

Some of you, instead of being armchair experts should actually play this game and learn to be good at it.

As it is Palp Aces are ridiculously easy to counter - Dengaroo, Crakcswarms, Trandoshan Slaver with JM5K, Double K-Wings, Omega Leader, Wes Janson, R3A2, Zuckuss, to name a few, all those things counter Aces HARD.

How many of those can also deal with TorpScout spam though?

If PalpAces were OP then it wouldn't have got its ass kicked at Worlds 2015. It's the problem it is now because its counters in turn have severe trouble with a trio of flying toilet seats.

Unable to beat them both, people join one of them and SandWing is born anew.

Oh, another pointless thread with absurd ideas.

Some of you, instead of being armchair experts should actually play this game and learn to be good at it.

As it is Palp Aces are ridiculously easy to counter - Dengaroo, Crakcswarms, Trandoshan Slaver with JM5K, Double K-Wings, Omega Leader, Wes Janson, R3A2, Zuckuss, to name a few, all those things counter Aces HARD.

How many of those can also deal with TorpScout spam though?

If PalpAces were OP then it wouldn't have got its ass kicked at Worlds 2015. It's the problem it is now because its counters in turn have severe trouble with a trio of flying toilet seats.

Unable to beat them both, people join one of them and SandWing is born anew.

It's a "well if you can't beat em join em attitude"