Hahaha power creep, hahaha. Ah, that's golden. It isnt power creep, it's power restabilisation. This whole time they have tried to get things to the TIE fighter level of efficiency. Every ship that has come out has been put in for a different flavor, and mostly the only ones hurting right now really, are the punisher, imperial spray, syck (though mangler+mind link is pretty awesome), and a few of the generics of the larger ships.

I remember when people use to complain that all they saw was generic spam and that named pilots were useless. Interceptors were trash, B wings were the only good wing. I also see people fail to realize EU came out with the falcon.

There will never be a competitive game that makes 100% of people happy. You will always have people being nostalgic about past (usually flawed) releases, or people upset with constant expansions, or the others that the expansions don't meet up to their wants (non OT ships or GUNBOAT). I would just suggest to sit and enjoy the ride as FFG tried to make ever things right by everyone.

Way too long and you lost me as soon as you suggest nerfing. Nerfing is something you just do not do in a miniatures game.

Way too long and you lost me as soon as you suggest nerfing. Nerfing is something you just do not do in a miniatures game.

Well thats not factually true is it? In miniature games generally we do see nerfs, in 40k units can be nerfed when a new codex comes out. Unfortunately, thats not so easy when points costs and abilities are printed on cards which are distributed with models. However, we have seen a nerf to the phantom through the timing of the decloak and more recently various changes to the R4 aggromech to change its interaction with deadeye. It's just more a case of occasiionally using the nerf scalpel rather than regularly wielding the nerf bat.

if they change the price of a card, add/remove words from the card, or flatout completely rewrite a card, it needs a reprint. Otherwise you will have a ton of people who dont memorize the faq (i.e. practically everyone) constantly using the card in the old, now illegal format.

Thats why any such change needs a reprint. And why FFG will never do it.

Explain to me why I can't put 2 Tactician on my YV-666 because it has no Limited word on it.

if they change the price of a card, add/remove words from the card, or flatout completely rewrite a card, it needs a reprint. Otherwise you will have a ton of people who dont memorize the faq (i.e. practically everyone) constantly using the card in the old, now illegal format.

Thats why any such change needs a reprint. And why FFG will never do it.

Explain to me why I can't put 2 Tactician on my YV-666 because it has no Limited word on it.

the only errata EVER.

and the poor Daredevil :c

Hey guys, i'd like to take a second to thank all of you for contributing to the discussion. Honestly, my only goal here was to spur discussion, because i believe something needs to be discussed. It's remained rather civil as far as i can tell, and i'd especially like to thank everyone for that.

Even if you may not have agreed with me, what i said, or my solutions, some of you(not all, i had this problem) took time to explain to me WHY you thought that i was wrong.

Anyways.

So i agree that heavy-handed nerfs can be difficult to pull off. I would imagine that any future nerfs would have to be small, very precision nerfs, which we have seen, it's just that it needs to be done more often IMO.

I still believe that a varied set of counter-pickable missions needs to be selected, with various ones favoring certain list archetypes than others, because even if that doesnt change the meta at all(it will, but hypothetically), either way tournaments become more fun than the standard 100 points snoozefest. You could build a list that performs well in only 2 or 3 out of the missions but bid for initiative and get your favored mission and win with a list that might do terribly in 100 point dogfight. FFG is creative, i'm sure they could make missions varied enough to be fair but clearly favors certain lists.

I gotta ask, what mission would even remotely not favor a mini swarm+ ace/filler for imperials? Cause I can tell you right now, that list works even in the current tournament set.

Way too long and you lost me as soon as you suggest nerfing. Nerfing is something you just do not do in a miniatures game.

Well thats not factually true is it? In miniature games generally we do see nerfs, in 40k units can be nerfed when a new codex comes out. Unfortunately, thats not so easy when points costs and abilities are printed on cards which are distributed with models. However, we have seen a nerf to the phantom through the timing of the decloak and more recently various changes to the R4 aggromech to change its interaction with deadeye. It's just more a case of occasiionally using the nerf scalpel rather than regularly wielding the nerf bat.

I think it's very fortunate we aren't using WH40Ks system, actually.

Also the further this game is from competitive smash the better, IMO.

There are clear practical reasons why buffing underpowered ships is the more practical approach. People who own things aren't happy to see those things lose value, yet everyone is glad to add value to a card in the binder, and that gives FFG a new expansion to make without further exhausting their pool of unused ships.

OP, there's a lot of your own theory craft in the topic that's just flat out wrong. Aces are weak to more than just stress control, there's also blocking, direct damage, focused fire, etc. Agi 1 ships aren't weak to high offense ships like bros, they're strongest against them, and weakest against 2 attack ships like the Z and TIE. The low agi means it's more important how many red dice are coming in total, rather than how many in one attack. 4 academies do a lot more damage to an arc than 1 bot, and for less points.

The uboats and ordinance are keeping jousters out of the game. Ffg has a very real problem where they buy the dog to chase the cat they bought to chase the mouse.

I see your point, but I don't think it's accurate. Before U-boats, the prevalent lists with T-65's and other jousters were really more Rebel Regen lists. Or....3 decked out Rebels that then like to joust. I don't really see that as a true jouster list. I usually call it Rebel Regen....unless there really isn't any regen going on. I guess you can have a jouster list with just 3 aces. That list would have a problem with U-boats.

U-boats can burn down a couple of ships very fast, but then isn't all that. Once their torpedoes are spent, they are just 2 attack die ships with a lot of hull.

When I think of Jousters, I am also thinking of the low to mid PS guys that usually get ignored. It used to be that something like BBBBZ was brutal as you couldn't withstand firepower of that magnitude. Fat Turrets and Arc Dodgers is what killed that list (well, and Phantoms) due to getting around those firing arcs. If you were able to bring back jousting due to a lack of PTL Arc Dodgers, then you can bring back lower PS ships. The real PS limit I see now is to fire before U-boats. So, I think it's possible to go with a number of mid PS ships that joust and all fire before the U-boat. At this point, a list like this could burn down one U-boat before it can fire and then only faces 4 Torpedoes. You wouldn't be able to kill that many of those ships with the remaining Torpedoes and you can do well vs. U-boats.

Here's a list that I think would do excellent vs. U-boats.....and many other lists (besides Imp Aces).

I think the answer to saving jousters from torpedoes comes in the fact that missiles are meant to hit fighters but torpedoes are not. X-wings don't torpedo tie fighters. Jumpmasters should be pretty easy to take out with X-wings. There should be a small fighter EPT or Mod that drastically reduces torpedo effectiveness.

I think the answer to saving jousters from torpedoes comes in the fact that missiles are meant to hit fighters but torpedoes are not. X-wings don't torpedo tie fighters. Jumpmasters should be pretty easy to take out with X-wings. There should be a small fighter EPT or Mod that drastically reduces torpedo effectiveness.

There simply should be torpedo dice that have hit-hit and hit-crit or focus-crit results on it

but shooting small amount of dice

as such being a no-problem for agile foes, but a pain up the arse for fat eenmies.

(and you outght not to think of what happens if they DO hit a fighter)

but nope, let's make it all red dice!

*sigh* theres a difference between adding Limited, something that can EASILY be remembered, and completely rewriting a card to only in the loosest way possible resemble the old card.

Not to mention, theres what 2 cards that have any sort of errata on them, the rest being timing and/or clarification? 2 cards is pretty easy to remember. If they started nerfing/buffing cards as a whole, ALL THE CARDS would have crap to remember. You think you can keep track of 40+ cards having slight to major differences than whats actually on the card? hell no.

I think the answer to saving jousters from torpedoes comes in the fact that missiles are meant to hit fighters but torpedoes are not. X-wings don't torpedo tie fighters. Jumpmasters should be pretty easy to take out with X-wings. There should be a small fighter EPT or Mod that drastically reduces torpedo effectiveness.

I quite like this as an idea. Probably more so the mod than the ept because it would be available for ships without ept slots (specifically looking at not precluding its use on generics).

Although that said, is the problem with torpedoes as they currently stand, or the interaction of torpedoes and deadeye on an aggresively costed contracted scout with an ept? I'm not sure going down the route of nerfing the torpedoes to the extent that even the ships that can use them best, can't utilise them efficiently, is a good thing as it might lead to them dissapearing from the game completely. Better probably to try to find a way to nerf the jump master, ffg have started this with a change to the rules of the agromech but they probably need to go a bit further.

The Contracted Scout is the straw that broke the camel's back. It took all the pieces and put them together in such a way as to drive small based Rebel lists from the meta for average players. We know that if you're really good you can out maneuver and outthink the fat based PS3 ships with what's probably the best dial in the game. But you better be really good.

I know I'm not good enough to avoid losing X-Wings to 4 guaranteed hit shots. I don't have the skill to be certain I can avoid that outcome till my 3 red dice whittle away all those shields and hull behind 2 greens.

Unless FFG is willing to swing the nerf bat with some serious power that's the way it's going to stay.

The Contracted Scout is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Perfect Storm I believe is the idiom you're looking for.

Contracted Scouts defeats Rebel Regens, but not all Rebel jouster lists. I still say it's the mix of having to beat PTL Arc Dodgers and Contracted Scouts that makes it the perfect storm. There are a lot of jouster lists that can defeat Contracted Scouts, but can't beat Imp Aces.

they killed off squads that rely on super-prolonged battles, that's all

and the fact that rebel small ships don't have anything to offer but a ton of tlts and annoying regen...

not a scouts problem.

We saw it before. The TIE phantom was a beatable ship but it killed everything that preyed on Fat Turrets.

I'll keep flying, and doing a good bit of losing with, the ships I like the looks of most of all regardless of the meta. But I feel sorry for the players who want to fly something other than the meta overlords in tournaments. They are in for a long hike in wet boots.

Edit: and yes I will have another beer, thanks.

So many good points and banter (well thought and trolling angry-ness) are fun to read as they color the wonderful world that FFG has created in this awesome game!

Dan's summary is, I'll say, perfect....simply add that the highest of tournaments are won by intriguing minds flying squads against the average even as all of the smaller ones seems to go swimmingly with the current meta hotness. And, what gives him the pass on his one miss is that he closed his post with a key to truly enjoying this game; have a pint in hand. Now that makes the game perfectly fun, win or loose, for with friends and a pint, you fly what you love and everyone wins!

I'll keep flying, and doing a good bit of losing with, the ships I like the looks of most of all regardless of the meta. But I feel sorry for the players who want to fly something other than the meta overlords in tournaments. They are in for a long hike in wet boots.

Edit: and yes I will have another beer, thanks.

So many good points and banter (well thought and trolling angry-ness) are fun to read as they color the wonderful world that FFG has created in this awesome game!

Dan's summary is, I'll say, perfect....simply add that the highest of tournaments are won by intriguing minds flying squads against the average even as all of the smaller ones seems to go swimmingly with the current meta hotness. And, what gives him the pass on his one miss is that he closed his post with a key to truly enjoying this game; have a pint in hand. Now that makes the game perfectly fun, win or loose, for with friends and a pint, you fly what you love and everyone wins!

Unfortunately i don't drink. So i'm stuck in meta hell lmao

We saw it before. The TIE phantom was a beatable ship but it killed everything that preyed on Fat Turrets.

There was no reason for the Phantom being messed with. I mean how many tournaments did they win?

honestly i dont think phantoms getting their nerf reverted would be all that insane right now.

In fact it would hurt the way i use Echo more often than not lol...gives you a chance to block me

If you're going to play competitively, you are expected to know or have handy the FAQ and Errata. As such, it is absolutely reasonable to make changes to cards via errata. You can add a word, remove a word, change the wording, change a cost.

Increase Contracted Scout cost or remove its EPT. Boom, done. Emperor Palpatine: Huge Ship Only. Boom, done. Torpedoes roll one fewer red die vs small base ships and/or one additional red die vs large base ships. Boom, done.

But seriously, nerfs can be done via errata because it is required reading for tournaments. Alternatively, create updated versions of changed cards, and let people order them at no cost with proof of purchase (you kept all your little cardboard proof of purchase squares, didn't you?) either as physical cards or downloadable PDFs.

If you're going to play competitively, you are expected to know or have handy the FAQ and Errata. As such, it is absolutely reasonable to make changes to cards via errata. You can add a word, remove a word, change the wording, change a cost.

Increase Contracted Scout cost or remove its EPT. Boom, done. Emperor Palpatine: Huge Ship Only. Boom, done. Torpedoes roll one fewer red die vs small base ships and/or one additional red die vs large base ships. Boom, done.

But seriously, nerfs can be done via errata because it is required reading for tournaments. Alternatively, create updated versions of changed cards, and let people order them at no cost with proof of purchase (you kept all your little cardboard proof of purchase squares, didn't you?) either as physical cards or downloadable PDFs.

Oh, you're absolutely right that expecting it doesn't mean it happens, but since everyone is so strongly focused on the competitive scene whenever discussing things like this, I feel it's absolutely acceptable to put the burden on the player. It's even in the tournament rules if I recall correctly. When participating in a tournament, players are expected to be well versed in the rules including errata and FAQs. It no one's fault but their own if they show up with an illegal list. It's already a thing with Tactician for example.

My torp damage example was more a bit of fun based on something said upthread but could be fun. What would that rule have done to PWT if we got it instead of Autothrusters? What would it do to triple Scouts?