FTFY

Deadeye was dead forgotten Wave 2 EPT nobody ever used except maybe once on a non competitive due to expense Nera build. If they'd noticed it they wouldn't have let the R4 Agromech combo slide.

Dang, this is why I hate the English language.

I saw that spelling mistake in a triple A published video game once. No proof reading in the patches.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

That doesn't surprise me.

Dash versus TorpScout is almost always going to be a joust because they're both turrets. Jumpmaster primary weapon versus Dash's HLC is a brutal matchup for them but their torpedoes outgun his HLC. The Scouts have the jousting advantage if they keep Dash in arc and Dash has the jousting advantage if he stays out of arc. The TorpScouts are PS3 and Dash is PS7 with double large base reposition. It comes down to dodging the primary firing arc for Dash and he can do that with little trouble.

From my experience u-boats do counter dash+ghost most of the time which is why the list makes the cut sometimes but almost never wins. The main problem is that the more Dash has to reposition the fewer actions he has left to modify his dice and 27 hps protected by 2 green dice is a LOT to chew through. Dash doesn't want to go anywhere where u-boats can block him as it can end up very badly for him. Dash also doesn't really want to end up in range 1 from u-boats because if he keeps taking 3 dice hits from their primaries they're gonna wear him down way sooner than he wears them down. And obviously he never ever wants to be caught in arc of even a single one of them. When you combine all those requirements and consider the fact there are 3 ships you have to fight at once, manuevering him is far from "little trouble" and quite often he has no modifiers at all because he spent all his actions on repositioning. As a result, the match up requires great skill and quite a bit of luck.

Granted, the last I've seen Dash vs Wolfpack was before the agromech nerf. It was real brutal for the poor Dash. He dodged arcs like an ace but u-boats primaries were so **** accurate that they simply tore him apart piece by piece over several turns. Maybe it would be easier now that they depend on OC4s but I still don't think it's an easy match up for him.

All buffs and no nerfs makes X-Wing a dull game.

They could easily nerf general rules though, or the information cards, since nobody has those lying around anyway. I think ive glanced at mine once after the initial purchase lol.

Oh wait they did, decloak changed. Huge ship beyond range3 changed. The ENTIRE TIMING during an attack changed.

Problem is majority of the balance issues are not general rules, theyre printed on an upgrade/pilot card.

Though im still hoping they rewrite how mines deal their damage. Doubt they will, but im hoping. Proxies/clusters really need some love.

. And now they have nothing. Ok, Dash with Ghost. Whoopee. The OT fighters have been completely removed from the tournament meta by Scouts. IMO that's a very bad thing. Sure Rebel Regen was a bit dull to face, particularly in a mirror match. But at least you had a chance. Rebel small bases against Scouts is the equivalent of someone putting a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

If you're playing thematic games I'm not entirely sure why you're fighting Scouts at all, but lets take a look at this matchup.

A TorpScout is a PWT so you have to joust it: it's impossible to put yourself in a position where you can fire on it and it can't fire on you. However, the TorpScout's firepower is not even across the Range 1-3 ring it threatens: outside of its firing arc it fights with an unimpressive two die weapon. If you fight against you can win as you have the jousting advantage.

To achieve that you have to consistently avoid the torpedo launchers: you need a positioning advantage with which to consistently put yourself out of its primary firing arc while still having a shot on it. Problem is the Jumpmaster also has a very good dial.

If the OT fighters are the X-wing, Y-wing, B-wing and A-wing then the only one I can see achieving this without using any tricks is the A-wing. It has a maneuvering advantage over the Jumpmaster and is good at blocking: a method by which you can disable its dumbfire torpedo launcher for one round. It's probably still not a good matchup but the A-wing has an advantage it can use: the generic X-wing, Y-wing and B-wing are both out-jousted and out-maneuvered.

If you can't dodge the DTLs your only other option is to disable them. You have to survive that first round of shooting without taking too much damage which'll probably require Biggs (his astromech eats damage overspill so he should be able to tank at least two of the torpedoes). It'll also likely require Wes Janson. Then you've got to cram in enough firepower to burn the Jumps down while they're disabled, which is easier said than done.

And then that list has to be able to take on the rest of the metagame too.

Nerfs are extremely hard for this game. You basically have FAQ's, rules updates and bans. FAQ's should ideally not fundamentally alter what something does, they are more for clarifying how it does what it does. You would not use the faq to change point costs for example. Then you have rules updates which again change how things interact and when triggers occur. Bans outright remove parts of the game and are very bad for a product like this. Banning a pilot or ship would be almost unthinkable and banning an upgrade would be a huge negative. The nature of the game means that buffs are the norm but they are also not huge swingy buffs because you can't dial it back.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

People like you infuriate me.

He's right though.

WORLDS 2012 - Wave 1 Tournament

Won by Dallas Parker iirc.

The best possible list in Wave 1 is the Howl Swarm, but the winning list contained an original TIE advanced.

WORLDS 2013 - Wave 3 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the TIE swarm hands down. The TIE Swarm is why Wave 4 has so much generic hate in it. Won by XXBB, a list designed to be able to beat the TIE swarm by outflying it with the bizarre behaviour of the Adv Sensor B-wing.

WORLDS 2014 - Wave 5 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the Fat Falcon and Phantom + Miniswarm. Won by a Fat Falcon tailored to kill Fat Falcons.

WORLDS 2015 - Wave 7 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Won by a toolkit list containing a T-70, a single TLT Y-wing, a Stresshog and iirc a Z-95. Never became a netlist. PalpAces was in this tournament.

The only time the popular archetype won was Worlds 2014 and even then it was a new form of it specialised to kill others of its archetype: it brought the previously dismissed R2-D2 Crew out of nowhere to take the Falcon's durability from ignore two hits to ignore three.

Worlds hasnt been won by what was previously CONSIDERED the best list perhaps, but I'd argue that by winning worlds the winning lists probed they WERE the best.

Looking forward to pheaver winning with rebels this year. ;-)

Banning treads on Magic territory. i got a few friends that play magic and they get livid when they buy card packs only to find a bunch of illegal cards for tournament play. Granted, thats on the tournament and not the company (i think), but still thats pretty lame.

The nature of the game means that buffs are the norm but they are also not huge swingy buffs because you can't dial it back.

I agree. Generally FFG tends to tred quite carefully when it comes to making buffs in quite small incremental steps. Normally I think it works quite well but occasionally you will get a critical mass of incremental upgrades meeting a certain ship which will lead to something becoming (or at least percieved to be) overpowered. e.g dead eye meets extra munitions meets R4 aggromech meets guidance chips on a low PS jumpmaster with an EPT.

I'm not saying FFG is wrong to take this approach (in fact its probably favourable) but sometimes these things happen. Even now we can see them trying to dial it back incrementally with the agromech FAQ.

That said, I do think that the x/7 title was a giant leap by the standards of the FFG buffing process and probably took the defender from being over costed to under costed. In my opinion the free evade on 3+ speed maneuvres with no point reduction would have been enough by itself to bring the defender to a good level of competetiveness.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

People like you infuriate me.

He's right though.

WORLDS 2012 - Wave 1 Tournament

Won by Dallas Parker iirc.

The best possible list in Wave 1 is the Howl Swarm, but the winning list contained an original TIE advanced.

WORLDS 2013 - Wave 3 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the TIE swarm hands down. The TIE Swarm is why Wave 4 has so much generic hate in it. Won by XXBB, a list designed to be able to beat the TIE swarm by outflying it with the bizarre behaviour of the Adv Sensor B-wing.

WORLDS 2014 - Wave 5 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the Fat Falcon and Phantom + Miniswarm. Won by a Fat Falcon tailored to kill Fat Falcons.

WORLDS 2015 - Wave 7 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Won by a toolkit list containing a T-70, a single TLT Y-wing, a Stresshog and iirc a Z-95. Never became a netlist. PalpAces was in this tournament.

The only time the popular archetype won was Worlds 2014 and even then it was a new form of it specialised to kill others of its archetype: it brought the previously dismissed R2-D2 Crew out of nowhere to take the Falcon's durability from ignore two hits to ignore three.

Worlds hasnt been won by what was previously CONSIDERED the best list perhaps, but I'd argue that by winning worlds the winning lists probed they WERE the best.

Saying that a list that wins the worlds is by definition the best is a bit of a truism. Not sure what you meant to prove there - how on earth would world's NOT be won by the best list, regardless of the game's balance?

What is also true however is that many of the supposedly "best lists" never became very popular despite their apparent strength. That was because they were in fact tailor-crafted to defeat the most popular lists at the time and otherwise required great skill from the player to win vs everything else. I'd say ithat the fact it was possible proves that the game is actually pretty healthy. The worst scenario would be if there was a single list everyone would agree is the best and all the top players would use. Not only would that make for a terribly boring meta but also suggest that the results were based more on luck than players' skills.

Back when X-wings were the only 3 attack ship they got a lot of appreciation, especially Wedge since he was the first agility killer. Since then it's become way more common for ships to have guaranteed evades. And yes regen has been here since the original core set, but so have munitions, except that now they are a viable way to create an alpha strike list and punch through with enough damage to erase even the toughest stains. What hasn't improved as much is red dice, but that is understandable. Can you imagine something like Chimps for primary weapons? Sounds pretty scary...

It's tough to figure out a way to buff reds when greens have been buffed so much already. I guess we shouldn't have complained so much about how fickle those green dice were...

4 friggin base red dice on the Ghost, 4 friggin red base dice on a seemingly cheap Upsilon.

i zoned out when you started talkng about a childrens party game like they care about balance, op

i zoned out when you started talkng about a childrens party game like they care about balance, op

Uhm … uhm … uhm … dear mods, I need here a forum suitable insult, because he made fun of one competitive fighting game. One which I do like. So the insult must be big, but yet forum serviceable. ;-)

Oh yeah? You fight like a cow.

Oh yeah? You fight like a cow.

Wrong, you have to begin with:

You fight like a Dairy Farmer!

Hmmm I guess part of the game is the ever evolving meta, which has the side effect of essentially nerfing stuff from time time. I know that's not really what the OP is talking about but I've noticed it in the year and a half or so I've been playing.

I suppose it's the negative side to the way FFG does rules. Using cards as opposed to books or simply online references means it gets weird when you start changing what's printed on them. If they started adjusting point costs or adding/removing things from ship or pilot cards it would become a mess soon enough.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

. And now they have nothing. Ok, Dash with Ghost. Whoopee. The OT fighters have been completely removed from the tournament meta by Scouts. IMO that's a very bad thing. Sure Rebel Regen was a bit dull to face, particularly in a mirror match. But at least you had a chance. Rebel small bases against Scouts is the equivalent of someone putting a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

And they deserve to have nothing. Go fly fat Han with some obnoxious regen ship and pretend to be good at the game someplace else.

All that the Rebels had left was regen and dumb turrets. One of their turrets even regenerates. Rebel players completely deserve to have nothing, they've dominated the game for 3 waves now with NPE garbage.

And BBBBZ has never, ever been top tier. It still lost to fat turrets, it lost to the pre-nerf phantom, it loses to Palp Aces, it lost to rebel regen, it lost to quad TLT.

T-65's with IA are at B-Wing level now.

Y-Wings besides for the stresshog were just TLT boats. Big loss there, no more quad TLT what a positive play experience list!

Let's not pretend it's scouts that killed off the OT small base rebel ships. They killed off Y-Wings sure, but it's not like it's possible to get Super Dash in arc for shots with XXXXZ/BBBBZ especially now that we've given him an entirely green dial. Your attacks can't hit Palp Aces ships even if you do get them in arc.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

. And now they have nothing. Ok, Dash with Ghost. Whoopee. The OT fighters have been completely removed from the tournament meta by Scouts. IMO that's a very bad thing. Sure Rebel Regen was a bit dull to face, particularly in a mirror match. But at least you had a chance. Rebel small bases against Scouts is the equivalent of someone putting a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

Seen Gencon? yes, the one where there are two rebels in Top-4 one with XXE and another with DoubleLothal build?

Sure thing, completely removed!

OT Fighters? T-65 (hello, Biggz, the one greatest troll for the last 9 waves) and Tie Fighter (Crackswarm lives!)

so your arguement is invalid. They exist. They live, they prosper.

Oh yeah? You fight like a cow.

Wrong, you have to begin with:

You fight like a Dairy Farmer!

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

. And now they have nothing. Ok, Dash with Ghost. Whoopee. The OT fighters have been completely removed from the tournament meta by Scouts. IMO that's a very bad thing. Sure Rebel Regen was a bit dull to face, particularly in a mirror match. But at least you had a chance. Rebel small bases against Scouts is the equivalent of someone putting a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

Seen Gencon? yes, the one where there are two rebels in Top-4 one with XXE and another with DoubleLothal build?

Sure thing, completely removed!

OT Fighters? T-65 (hello, Biggz, the one greatest troll for the last 9 waves) and Tie Fighter (Crackswarm lives!)

so your arguement is invalid. They exist. They live, they prosper.

I really don't see what a twin Lothal Rebel list has to do with Rebel small base ships. I'm impressed that the XXE list made it into the top 4. That's some damned fine flying and some ridiculous luck.

I admit I'm wrong about the TIE. It can play the current game because it's so damned cheap you don't care if someone gets shot down. You've got 5-6 more.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

. And now they have nothing. Ok, Dash with Ghost. Whoopee. The OT fighters have been completely removed from the tournament meta by Scouts. IMO that's a very bad thing. Sure Rebel Regen was a bit dull to face, particularly in a mirror match. But at least you had a chance. Rebel small bases against Scouts is the equivalent of someone putting a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

Seen Gencon? yes, the one where there are two rebels in Top-4 one with XXE and another with DoubleLothal build?

Sure thing, completely removed!

OT Fighters? T-65 (hello, Biggz, the one greatest troll for the last 9 waves) and Tie Fighter (Crackswarm lives!)

so your arguement is invalid. They exist. They live, they prosper.

Two T-65s out of how many? And the other Rebel small based ships?

I really don't see what a twin Lothal Rebel list has to do with Rebel small base ships. I'm impressed that the XXE list made it into the top 4. That's some damned fine flying and some ridiculous luck.

I admit I'm wrong about the TIE. It can play the current game because it's so damned cheap you don't care if someone gets shot down. You've got 5-6 more.

Actually it's so because PS4 downs UUU and Crackshot lets you DERP token-dodgers.

Double lothal? It's Rebel list, so rebels haven't been driven. Maybe I misunderstood your post, and you spoke only of small based rebels

But it's not a rebel problem, and not a Uboat feat. small based ships are either jousters or turrets.

right now the only good small based jousters are TIEs and Defenders, both being mathematically superior. and yes, Defenders are ace-jousters (PS5-6)

and work because over the brutally put BEST statline that's beaten only by a lrage base (sadly) Aggressor they boast epic soontir-level action economy.

Biggz is the torpedo-trolling machine. That's why he's good right now that torpedo protection matters.

other small ships? If you don;t pack 2+ actions you;re in for hard time. that's the meta, tokens rule the world.

That's why BBBB isn't a thing no more, and a reason YYYY is out of sight. KKK was inententional, and got nerf-batted by the FAQ (sorry doublestress)

want small ship squadrons to shine? Play Epic. there you suddenly realize that a free evade token isn't saving your butt. That's why Epic is life, epic is love.

In my humble opinion, I think PTL Arc Dodgers have been too powerful lately. The idea of the high PS PTL Arc Dodger was that you could get out of arcs of almost any ship and be able to fire at them in return. This really ruined the game in a number of ways. You can always stress them or bump them, but sometimes that's hard to do. Stressing someone often meant actually firing at them in the first place, which can be hard for PTL Arc Dodgers. The power level of the PTL Arc Dodger pretty much created:

• The PS War (also Tie Phantoms did).
• The death of the Jouster

There are so many threads about fixing the T-65 (or the Kihraxz, Starviper, or B-wing). These are all jouster ships (you may think the Starviper is a PTL Arc Dodger, but it's not). When you remove the ability for jousters to be effective, you pretty much remove them from the game (except for some special guys, like Biggs). Can you win with T-65's vs. PTL Arc Dodgers? Yes, but it's not an easy game. It's an uphill struggle.

If you nerf the ability of the PTL Arc Dodgers, then you should be able to bring back Jousters. I think FFG recognizes this and has worked towards this idea. Many new ships have abilities that work when you are in the firing arc of another ship. So, they are encouraging you to actually joust. Also, there have been a ton of upgrades and new pilots that hurt PTL Arc Dodgers (the most infamous being BMST, but not the only one). It is my opinion that FFG has recognized this issue and has been working towards fixing it with the latest ships and upgrades. It's not so much a nerf directly to PTL Arc Dodgers, but it's direct counters to those ships. It's a smart way of "nerfing" the situation.

There will always be Arc Dodging. It existed in Wave 1 with the Tie Fighter, even though people now don't consider it a real arc dodger. I think arc dodging will always be a thing. I am under the impression that PTL Arc Dodgers are too powerful for the game and really drive us to where we are today. You need to have something to beat the PTL Arc Dodgers, but you also have to beat U-boats. There has been a narrow strip of options until Wave 9 comes out officially.

The return of the Jousters will bring back a lot more options into the game. The T-65 had two main issues; not efficient points, and not re-positioning vs. PTL arc dodgers. Integrated Astromech fixes the first part. Oh, I know some people don't think so, but I believe it does. It's much better than it was. If PTL Arc Dodgers are nerfed, then the whole issue with the T-65 is resolved.

U-boats are still a counter to Rebel Shield Regens, which is great, as that list type is really freakin' annoying. Now, people don't have to face off 80% of the time vs. either Imperial PTL Aces or U-boats. They can build a jouster list that can burn down a U-boat before it can fire.

The uboats and ordinance are keeping jousters out of the game. Ffg has a very real problem where they buy the dog to chase the cat they bought to chase the mouse.

@vineheart I don't see why nerfs or buffs would require reprints. If the faqs haven't resuted in reprints there's no need for this to.

if they change the price of a card, add/remove words from the card, or flatout completely rewrite a card, it needs a reprint. Otherwise you will have a ton of people who dont memorize the faq (i.e. practically everyone) constantly using the card in the old, now illegal format.

Thats why any such change needs a reprint. And why FFG will never do it.

if they change the price of a card, add/remove words from the card, or flatout completely rewrite a card, it needs a reprint. Otherwise you will have a ton of people who dont memorize the faq (i.e. practically everyone) constantly using the card in the old, now illegal format.

Thats why any such change needs a reprint. And why FFG will never do it.

At this point we need some errata to deal with the arms race of firepower/survivability that's happening and onenof the best ways to do that is to tweak point costs/cards (palp to 10, scout loses ept or +1 point, x7 to -1 or -0 points and so on)