its one thing to release an "update" which is what the imp vets box was.

Its another to release a 'replacement' which REQUIRES the purchase to play the ship. Imp Vets is purely optional

So's the Raider, but you don't the TIE advanceds without it.

Good point. I guess that many people would much prefer buying a cheapish card upgrade pack than a (very) expensive Epic size ship.

But really IMHO the game needs a version 2.0 upgrade - there must be so many things they have learnt by now that they could make a much better 2.0 (Armada proves this I think).. Also: they have done 2.0 upgrades for other games with v.1 -> V2 upgrade support..

Ideally, the squad points system should have functioned in a way to make 100pts of anything viable, the greater the strength of a ship or upgrade, the greater the cost. That's the whole purpose of such a system. But it's clear that over the 10 waves of releases the points haven't always been calculated in the same way, and I would argue that this inconsistency has led to all the problems that we've had with the game. Such that the Phantom wasn't ever really a problem, it was the undercosted ACD (arguably a card that should never have been created in the first place) which basically removed the ship's uniqueness and weakness. In some ways too, the relative cheapness of newer upgrade cards (along with greater access) has diluted the core tenets of the gameplay. PTL took the 1 action rule and turned it on its head for a mere 3 points. TLT allows you to break the just 1 attack per round rule for only 6 points. And now we're seeing Scum-only crew cards that do insane things for virtually nothing, in a ship that costs about the same as an X-wing but has tons of slots and new moves. Remember the days when Shield Upgrade and Engine Upgrade were a whopping 4 points each, we had cards like Expose and R2-F2 and Opportunist, and Luke Skywalker was the most expensive card in the game? Now you can get a barrel roll action on your bar or free evade at range 3 or out of arc for just 2 points. Yeah, the points system is all over the place on the upgrade cards.

And the same can be said for the pilots/ships. Jumpmasters are so obviously undercosted when compared to other ships, it's like FFG did so deliberately in order to boost the Scum faction. I'm not surprised that some have developed a disliking for it.

FFG has to create ships that will sell. To sell they have to be unique in both appearance and in how they function. But they also have to be useful in game don't they. Granted not all new ships attain this but I am pretty sure they want ships to sell and hence try to make them desirable for players to purchase.

To make a ship useful it has to actually be useful and this rubs many of you grognards the wrong way. Imperial players are the worst whiners as they imagine the entire game should simply be arc dodging. Reality is this game is not simply one play style but covers a variety of ways to win and play.

If you think the game is "bloated" and has power creep etc simply stop buying new ships and use the ships you do like. Any hard core tournament players have to stay in the current meta but 99% or so of us are casual players so we can choose what we like to use and play with those lists in local tournaments and at our homes.

The answer is buffing those at the bottom end of the spectrum into the mid-tier, and nerfing stuff in the top and top-high tier into the mid-tier. This is when you get a fun, balanced, and competitive game. The reason why video games are by and large more balanced than table top games is because they have an easier time or nerfing stuff.

First off, I am glad that you care about the tournament level balance of X-wing. I hope that what you have written causes even more people to care about X-wing game balance. Perhaps, even those few people who actually determine the future of X-wing game balance are influenced for the better by discourses such as this one.

Nerfs are mostly not going to happen in X-wing. They might be useful, but they are entirely unpractical to implement. As you wrote in your article, X-wing is not an easily patched video game. For the most part, it's not worth talking about nerfs because of this impracticality.

There is one hypothetical question that helps focus what can practically be done about X-wing game balance in the immediate future.

If you could only add one single upgrade card to change game balance, what would it be?

The quickest way to vastly diversify the balance of X-wing is to buff most small base generic ships. There are so many that need help. What follows is a very rough upgrade idea. It's just a placeholder to indicate the magnitude of change needed to START diversifying X-wing. Reducing cost is boring, but perhaps the simplest option could be the best option.

-- Underestimated Forces --

-2 points

title

small base only

may only equip on pilots less than 5PS

may only equip on ships less than 3 agility

My only issue with this game is power creep.

Power creep is a very VERY real problem with X-Wing. More so than i think most people on this forum really see.

Hell i mean just look at the Ghost. Its literally better than the decimator in every conceivable way point for point. Then look at C-3P0, autothrusters, u-boats, veterans pack, and anything else that comes out brand new. Its always strictly better.

For a while I was hopeful it was simply a 'Cult of the New' attitude but the more ive played and looked. No. Things are strictly power creeping.

Hell i mean just look at the Ghost. Its literally better than the decimator in every conceivable way point for point.

No turret, red dial.

Then look at C-3P0, autothrusters, u-boats, veterans pack, and anything else that comes out brand new. Its always strictly better.

C-3PO was an attempt to make a thematic card that ended up a bit too good outside of Epic.

Autothrusters was an attempt to address the fundamental imbalance of a battle between a PWT and a ship with a lot cost tied up in positioning ability like a TIE interceptor. As the turret is in effect the ultimate positional (it cannot be arc dodged) a TIE interceptor has no choice but to joust it, a contest that prior to Autothrusters it would lose. I expand on this here if you are interested.

Contracted Scouts are a balance misstep. Their potency was not intentional.

Imperial Veterans addresses ships that were weak before: it attempts to bring them up to the balance standard.

I think this discussion requires some context of X-Wing's historical balance state.

X-Wing was not a balanced game when it came out: the TIE fighter was the best ship by a country mile. Once FFG realised this they began balancing to the TIE fighter or just below it to be careful.

True power creep is where each wave is more powerful than the one that preceded it. It's difficult to make that argument when one of the consistently best ships in the game is in the Core Set. The creeping that's been happening is creeping up from the original TIE advanced level back up to the TIE fighter.

They will never make people buy new cards for old ships, it's just not practical for this gamr. They can only ban and change rules, and even banning cards will poss some people off.

I acknowledge what you mean here is requiring people to buy errata but isn't Imperial Veterans technically requiring a new purchase to bring an old ship up to the current standard?

I should have been more specific and said a version 2.0 of a ship, like with new stats, making the old obsolete. For me and a lot of people, this is an expensive game, considering how many more important things in life there is to spend your money on. There fore a 2.0 would just pissed me and a lot of people off, because I love the game, but if I have to re buy everything or even just an expensive pack to use the stuff I already bought, it would turn me off, and I'm sure it will turn a lot of people off. At the end of the day, we all know a 2.0 won't happen, at least for a long time, if you don't enjoy the game anymore, then don't buy into it, simple, if you don't like what ffg is doing right now, don't give them your money. I don't think it does need a 2.0 and I believe the problem with the game is us, because we could just not bring palp aces, or triple u boats, or dengaroo, you can. Bring whatever you want to a tournament and I'm sure a skilled player can still do well, encourage more people to not net deck, we could do a lot more in this community to improve the game with our choices, rather then point fingers at people and say they should do this, or this, if the game sales and the new stuff is on the tables, the designers are just gonna keep doing what their doing because we keep giving them messages that it's all ok. Flying casual is flying what you have fun with, not what other people say is the best.

There seems to be a large number of assumptions when i say "nerf", which is understandable given i never exactly specified how i would nerf things.

So when most people think nerf, they think that the text on a card is changed. Which is how it happened for the Phantom. But i ask: Did anyone really have issues with the Phantom nerf, both in necessity or execution? I don't think so, personally. However, triple jumps got a minor nerf, but this was not a text change, but actually a rule change(more specifically a clarification that inadvertantly resulted in the deadeye-R4 combo but whatever). And that works! The FAQ and Tournament Rules are always online, and technically always changable. Lots of cards have had their text subtly changed or clarified in the FAQ, and nobody has complained. The point here is that a rule change or minor text changes would be perfectly viable nerfing options, because FFG has done that already.

I should say that nonetheless i believe the number 1 most important thing that FFG NEEDS to do to maintain balance is to introduce counter-pickable missions as a mandatory part of tournament. This alone would go so far to change the balance of the game. As we've discussed, Palp Aces is so good because Palpatine works best with the less ships you have, and because you dictate the tempo of the game. But when you have an objective you need to accomplish, that goes farther than arc-dodging all game and hanging 29 points of your list in a corner, Palp Aces might actually lose that game. A varied set of missions would allow many ships to become viable, just because they might have one or two missions that they work well in.

Frankly, Palp wouldnt need to be banned if Palp wasn't the most optimal choice in the game. Introduce a situation where Palp is less favorable than another ship, and then Palp doesnt need to be banned. Simple. It would be WAY easier to change the tournament rules than to ban or change a card.

Ideally, the squad points system should have functioned in a way to make 100pts of anything viable, the greater the strength of a ship or upgrade, the greater the cost. That's the whole purpose of such a system. But it's clear that over the 10 waves of releases the points haven't always been calculated in the same way, and I would argue that this inconsistency has led to all the problems that we've had with the game.

IMHO, it's not a problem with the ships, it is a problem with the sandbox. The game is about 100 points worth of dogfighting, and yet FFG keep trying to take ships (like bombers) and make them viable in this arena. This forces the designers to distort the nature of these ships and make them into something they aren't supposed to be: dogfighters.

My only issue with this game is power creep.

Power creep is a very VERY real problem with X-Wing. More so than i think most people on this forum really see.

{Agreed. But again, to make a design more interesting than the last, with no other avenues to develop, all you get is more powerful than the last.--Darth Meanie}

I'm okay with nerfs if I can get free cards to replace my invalid ones. Otherwise, nope.

Given that we will probably not see new cards without ships, to me it would seem like the best way to handle this is simply put updated cards in new releases. For example; the N-1 fighter may not offer much in the way od design ideas to expand, but the cards issued with it could be the errataed cards. Whether or not the old card become illegal is another choice. Perhaps not. . .the new printing would simply be for the convenience of not having to reference the FAQ.

If you think the game is "bloated" and has power creep etc simply stop buying new ships and use the ships you do like. Any hard core tournament players have to stay in the current meta but 99% or so of us are casual players so we can choose what we like to use and play with those lists in local tournaments and at our homes.

I can see where you're coming from, but no one wants to be the one cry-baby who tells all the other kids what toys they're allowed to use and what ones they aren't.

It's fine for ME to just use the lists and ships I think are thematic, but X Wing is a co-operative game that requires the input of another player. And if that other player really loves the more mechanical competitive side of the game, then we quickly find ourselves in a situation where my X Wings and B Wings or what-have-you are getting routinely stomped by triple stairmasters or palp aces and suddenly the game is a lot less fun for me. And I can either put up with it, and start to hate the game, or throw a tantrum and make other players play how I want, and suddenly THEY hate the game.

There's no win-win scenario here.

That's why I take the time to post in threads like this instead of simply saying to myself "Well, it's not my problem since I just play how I want." Because the only way we can get a win-win scenario is for the game to appeal to everyone, and while that's obviously an impossibility, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to get as close as we can. FFG needs to try harder to create a game that's faithful to the Star Wars lore, as well as satisfying the urge of competitive players to constantly have a new-shiny.

As it is, a large part of the problem is the 100/6 format which is supported to the exclusion of all else. This forces ALL ships released to be competitive dogfighters, even the bombers or other ships who excelled at tackling large targets. It also means things like proton torpedoes, which should be pretty ineffective in a dogfight, MUST be made to be effective or else what's the point?

There seems to be a large number of assumptions when i say "nerf", which is understandable given i never exactly specified how i would nerf things.

So when most people think nerf, they think that the text on a card is changed. Which is how it happened for the Phantom. But i ask: Did anyone really have issues with the Phantom nerf, both in necessity or execution? I don't think so, personally. However, triple jumps got a minor nerf, but this was not a text change, but actually a rule change(more specifically a clarification that inadvertantly resulted in the deadeye-R4 combo but whatever). And that works! The FAQ and Tournament Rules are always online, and technically always changable. Lots of cards have had their text subtly changed or clarified in the FAQ, and nobody has complained. The point here is that a rule change or minor text changes would be perfectly viable nerfing options, because FFG has done that already.

I should say that nonetheless i believe the number 1 most important thing that FFG NEEDS to do to maintain balance is to introduce counter-pickable missions as a mandatory part of tournament. This alone would go so far to change the balance of the game. As we've discussed, Palp Aces is so good because Palpatine works best with the less ships you have, and because you dictate the tempo of the game. But when you have an objective you need to accomplish, that goes farther than arc-dodging all game and hanging 29 points of your list in a corner, Palp Aces might actually lose that game. A varied set of missions would allow many ships to become viable, just because they might have one or two missions that they work well in.

Frankly, Palp wouldnt need to be banned if Palp wasn't the most optimal choice in the game. Introduce a situation where Palp is less favorable than another ship, and then Palp doesnt need to be banned. Simple. It would be WAY easier to change the tournament rules than to ban or change a card.

As much as I hate the, "If you don't like it, don't buy it," excuse, I think it actually applies here. Nobody is forcing you to play ships you don't want, and you can always talk to your opponent if you want to just fly the classics (Communicating like Adults? NOT IN MY WARGAME!). I've oft heard you praise the scenarios and non-standard formats for this game, Chucknuckle- Such formats lend themselves to the type of gameplay you clearly want. The release of new waves need not hurt your experience, since it seems like the product you really want from FFG would be a campaign box set, and that'd be a separate release (My advice? Encourage your Armada playing friends to buy the Correlian Conflict when it comes out, and once it does, post about experiences with it on these forums)

IMO the "dont like it - dont buy it" excuse is not really valid. Many people bought into the game in the very early waves where the game was not yet cluttered up by buff upon buff and there was no Scum faction to remove the game from the Star Warsian feeling.. People like to be able to use their existing OT stuff. Just because you are unhappy with the way the game is developing it is not the same as only two positions towards it. Lets discuss the grey zone. I like the game but less and less due to the points put forward by the OP.

Also a lot of people here writes that they would feel ripped off if they were "forced" to buy a card upgrade pack and yet they happily buy 3 Starvipers in order to get 3 Autotrusters. This is IMHO to rip off people. I hate that business model. It keeps me away from investing in the game.

Once you start down the path of nerfs it won't stop - every time someone loses to a ship there will be a cry to nerf it.

The game is surprisingly balanced right now - Brobots, manaroo, tie swarm, Imperial Aces (various versions), Palp Aces are all strong but bubbling under the surface are the VCX/Dash builds, Wes X wing variants and others.

There's a lot of potential out there and every wave challenges the status quo. Nerfs are just a negative approach when all else has failed.

There seems to be a large number of assumptions when i say "nerf", which is understandable given i never exactly specified how i would nerf things.

So when most people think nerf, they think that the text on a card is changed. Which is how it happened for the Phantom. But i ask: Did anyone really have issues with the Phantom nerf, both in necessity or execution? I don't think so, personally. However, triple jumps got a minor nerf, but this was not a text change, but actually a rule change(more specifically a clarification that inadvertantly resulted in the deadeye-R4 combo but whatever). And that works! The FAQ and Tournament Rules are always online, and technically always changable. Lots of cards have had their text subtly changed or clarified in the FAQ, and nobody has complained. The point here is that a rule change or minor text changes would be perfectly viable nerfing options, because FFG has done that already.

I should say that nonetheless i believe the number 1 most important thing that FFG NEEDS to do to maintain balance is to introduce counter-pickable missions as a mandatory part of tournament. This alone would go so far to change the balance of the game. As we've discussed, Palp Aces is so good because Palpatine works best with the less ships you have, and because you dictate the tempo of the game. But when you have an objective you need to accomplish, that goes farther than arc-dodging all game and hanging 29 points of your list in a corner, Palp Aces might actually lose that game. A varied set of missions would allow many ships to become viable, just because they might have one or two missions that they work well in.

Frankly, Palp wouldnt need to be banned if Palp wasn't the most optimal choice in the game. Introduce a situation where Palp is less favorable than another ship, and then Palp doesnt need to be banned. Simple. It would be WAY easier to change the tournament rules than to ban or change a card.

If you actually try to think of scenarios you really really have to make them bizarre to make aces/jumpmasters/etc not be good at them because they hae good offense, good mobility, and decent/good defense. You might see more crackswarms but that's about it.

Power creep is indeed a thing. Even though I don't play this game for that long, I still remember the time when 3 red dice + focus or TL was considered good firepower. Based on what I heard from veteran X-wingers, early on 3 red dice were actually considered to be exceptional firepower.

Nowadays 3 dice with one modifier is barely passable. In fact, 3 dice with target lock AND focus are pretty standard. For the firepower to be considered above average you need either 4 dice with 2 modifiers and/or gunner or you need 3 dice with 2 modifiers and some means of softening the target's defence, such as Zuckuss, 4-LOM, Crack Shot, Juke, Outmanuever or at least the Inquisitor's ability. I expect Fearlessness and the Tail Gunner to join the list pretty soon, along with some other upgrades. This steady arms race is probably what makes older ships no longer able to compete. Since it's impractical to expect that the escalation of firepower will be reversed any time soon, the only way to prevent some of the older ships from being phased out completely would be by giving them new titles and ship-specific mods that would allow them to take advantage of some of the new toys. As awesome as Biggs or Wes can be, a 3 att ship with a single modifier (at best) just can't kill things quickly enough nowadays.

Back when X-wings were the only 3 attack ship they got a lot of appreciation, especially Wedge since he was the first agility killer. Since then it's become way more common for ships to have guaranteed evades. And yes regen has been here since the original core set, but so have munitions, except that now they are a viable way to create an alpha strike list and punch through with enough damage to erase even the toughest stains. What hasn't improved as much is red dice, but that is understandable. Can you imagine something like Chimps for primary weapons? Sounds pretty scary...

It's tough to figure out a way to buff reds when greens have been buffed so much already. I guess we shouldn't have complained so much about how fickle those green dice were...

[...]

Contracted Scouts are a balance misstep. Their potency was not intentional.

[...]

I wouldn't agree wiht that. Balance would make more thing playable and I just don't see that. Rather than making more things compete against Arc-Dodgers they came out with a hard counter. As long as we keep doing this we actually are moving away from a balanced game. Unless you call two or three lists balance and everything else non-competitive.

I would say that Contracted Scouts might have been a Rock-Paper-Scissors misstep. Is that what X-Wing has really devolved into? Has it always be the case?

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

It devolved into that to an extent in Wave 4.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to PalpAces. It's a fairly even matchup: primary on primary the aces win but they'll die if the Scouts get too many good torpedo shots off.

The TorpScout wasn't caught in playtesting: the resurgence of Deadeye as the final piece of the puzzle came as a surprise. I believe it was priced as it was in the belief that it would be used like a Wild Space Fringer rather than being amongst the most powerful ships in a joust in the game.

The problem is together those two lists cover just about everything. They can fight each other but the majority of everything else seems to die hard to one of them: if it has the jousting power to fight PalpAces it lacks the positioning power to fight TorpScouts and vice versa.

Power creep is indeed a thing. Even though I don't play this game for that long, I still remember the time when 3 red dice + focus or TL was considered good firepower. Based on what I heard from veteran X-wingers, early on 3 red dice were actually considered to be exceptional firepower.

Nowadays 3 dice with one modifier is barely passable. In fact, 3 dice with target lock AND focus are pretty standard. For the firepower to be considered above average you need either 4 dice with 2 modifiers and/or gunner or you need 3 dice with 2 modifiers and some means of softening the target's defence, such as Zuckuss, 4-LOM, Crack Shot, Juke, Outmanuever or at least the Inquisitor's ability. I expect Fearlessness and the Tail Gunner to join the list pretty soon, along with some other upgrades. This steady arms race is probably what makes older ships no longer able to compete. Since it's impractical to expect that the escalation of firepower will be reversed any time soon, the only way to prevent some of the older ships from being phased out completely would be by giving them new titles and ship-specific mods that would allow them to take advantage of some of the new toys. As awesome as Biggs or Wes can be, a 3 att ship with a single modifier (at best) just can't kill things quickly enough nowadays.

This is exactly what i meant.

My friends and I have purchased portions of each wave over time (not necessarily in order) and i can attest to this. When we first started playing a target lock and 3 red dice vs 2 or 3 evades and a token was un believable.

Now we are rolling 3 reds with a base crit and a target lock and 2 modifiers on blanks vs 4-5 evades with 3 different modifiers and 1-2 tokens and its a whole different ball game. All because newer, more powerful cards get released that are drastically changing the power level of the game. Now don't get me wrong I do find it fun. TBH i wish xwing was like that from the start lol. But the obvious power creep has to be obvious to players. I mean I get the argument about things like auto thrusters being a balance help... i do.

honestly. Even as I know it exists... I'm ok with how x-wing handles its power creep. The defender situation is amazing to me. Suddenly i have these titles and the defender is great? love it. I just hope it lasts more than 1-2 waves and lasts the rest of the game as always a viable option.

Just friggin release the rogue squadron title and fix the xwing already and i'll be happy.

A tournament is always going to be about reliably mitigating the RNG.

I don't think the new cards are actually more powerful relative to the old ones that were good (obvious just about anything is better than Expose). But to release new waves they have to release upgrades that enhance a ship in new and different ways. It's less that there are better ways to enhance a ship and more that there are more ways to enhance a ship.

And because of the nature of them you can stack them all on top of each other.

I'll demonstrate with an example.

Take the old Fat Falcon. C-3PO's a good defensive upgrade: he's 5/7ths of an evade token for free every round in essence. By no means OP but he makes the Falcon a little tougher.

Millenium Falcon Title is an okay defensive upgrade: it gives you the Evade action. It'll cost you in actions and can shrug off one hit a round. It really wasn't a big thing in early Falcon builds.

R2-D2 Crew is a below average defensive upgrade. he regenerates a shield if you have none then has a risk of turning your hull damage critical.

None of these are a problem on their own. Combine C-3PO and Millenium Falcon together though and you can shrug off two hits a round guaranteed: a lone 2 die ship can't actually hurt you outside of Range 1.

Throw R2-D2 Crew, an otherwise decidedly meh upgrade, on top of that and you need to do four damage to the Falcon every round for any of that damage to stick.

New upgrades don't even have to be good: as long as they can stack on top of old upgrades you can create some monstrous unbreakable combos.

Contracted Scouts are not a hard counter to arc-dodgers. Quite the opposite, arc-dodgers are the only ones that keep Scouts in check. Scouts did wipe out plenty of other lists though, including pretty much all of the rebellion. The almost complete disappearance of rebels from the top cuts of major tournaments is the most obvious proof that FFG f***ed up when it comes to balancing the last wave. It was certainly not intentional, so they must have not realized how much of an impact cheap scouts would have.

Scouts blew TLT lists and Regen lists.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

Rebels just got too comfortable with PS10 slowrolling and regenning.

The TorpScout wasn't caught in playtesting: the resurgence of Deadeye as the final piece of the puzzle came as a surprise. I believe it was priced as it was in the belief that it would be used like a Wild Space Fringer rather than being amongst the most powerful ships in a joust in the game.

I still find this strange. The Jumpmaster 5000 was designed for torpedoes and Deadeye is the only EPT obviously connected to ordinance. I could understand if they underestimated the TorpScout, but the idea of somehow missing using the most obvious EPT for a low PS ordinance carrier alongside the upgrades that come in the box seems ridiculous.

The only way this makes sense to me is if the EPT was a late addition in development to make the Scout better. A lot of broken Magic the Gathering cards (Jace the Mind Sculptor, Skullclamp, Umezawa's Jitte) were the result of last second development changes that happened too late to be properly playtested.

PWTs are not that problematic. Dash+Ghost is a go-to-list for scout smashing.

That doesn't surprise me.

Dash versus TorpScout is almost always going to be a joust because they're both turrets. Jumpmaster primary weapon versus Dash's HLC is a brutal matchup for them but their torpedoes outgun his HLC. The Scouts have the jousting advantage if they keep Dash in arc and Dash has the jousting advantage if he stays out of arc. The TorpScouts are PS3 and Dash is PS7 with double large base reposition. It comes down to dodging the primary firing arc for Dash and he can do that with little trouble.

I could understand if they underestimated the TorpScout, but the idea of somehow missing using the most obvious EPT for a low PS ord _ nance carrier alongside the upgrades that come in the box seems ridiculous.

FTFY

Deadeye was dead forgotten Wave 2 EPT nobody ever used except maybe once on a non competitive due to expense Nera build. If they'd noticed it they wouldn't have let the R4 Agromech combo slide.