Agreed. FFG uses too much rule of cool in its design. They want the ghost which is a huge Disney asset to be really really good. So they made it really good and gave it huge amounts of synergy options with huge amounts of upgrade slots. This is poor design. Same with the jump master which actually became imbalance the classically textbook way: an old card interacting with a new card in a bad way due to negligent levels of play testing.

Also way too many large ships too good. You mention IG and Jumps.pant over everything. In the past all the Falcons decimator and dash were running ram

On the contrary, a new place for an old card is great design.

a new card that's SUPER GODDAMN AUTOINCLUDE (looking at Autohumpers and TLTs) is bad design.

And yes, the game ought to have more than 2(3) sizes.

Punisher, K, IG, Firespray, ARC, they all don't quite fit into small\large categories

1x2

1,5x1,5 bases would have solved it, just as YV666 should have the 3x2 one

Absolutely not.

Personally, I would have been fine with pre-fix Phantoms if Interceptors had autothrusters. Autothrusters makes the interceptors feel like interceptors. And gives less of the crazy variance of dice that people don't want to see. Gives them a role and point cost that doesn't overlap with Phantoms.

TLT is bad design. Its overpowered for its cost. Simple.

No to more sizes. More sizes increases cognition overload when thinking about overlaps and blocking, which is the important part of the game at high levels. (except against dengar, trolololol).

No my main problem is that you can't list counter large ships. And FFG is intent on making large ships incredibly strong. And they do a poor poor poor job on many small ships.

Heh, the point is that any arcdodger must die to turret, that was the grand design in the first place, you can dodge the arc, but won't dodge the turret.

AT spoiled that.

Their role as turret-eaters? They didn't start sucking against jousters, but gained a huge boost against turrets, that's fail. and a reason Palpaces are around in droves for the whole year already. Definitely a flaw

TLT isn't even remotely overpowered, it just hardcountered 1-2 evade ships, namely PWTs. as if AT didn't spoil their life already.

Complexity is not a bad thing. and in most cases we have ships that would have been better on another base.

Incredibly strong? Go ask Aggressor if it can possibly outgun a goddamn defender! Being large is a huge debuff in itself.

Literally everything you just said is wrong.

Oh really, so you say Arcdodgers must excell against both turrets and jousters? Wrong, think again.

AT didn't make dodgers that already ate jousters alive super-effective against turrets? Wrong, think again.

TLT is good against 3(4) evade token-stackers that can even stay in the donut hole half of the time? Wrong, think again.

As a dedicated aggressor player I can definitely say you are 146% wrong assuming IGs can outgun Defender list. white\green K-turns, 2(3) actions against red turns, huge base prone to blocks and asteroids, and 1(2) actions per turn. Go check your math first.

sheesh, imperials.

Warpman your far too aggressive that's why no one falls for your posts.

This may be a knee jerk reaction, but my guess is that the only way FFG can actively change the meta without a v2.0 of the game is to ban certain cards. And I really doubt that's going to happen.

In saving the Defender from obscurity they gave Palp Aces new ammunition. Not exactly something there was a desperate need for I think.

Many of us wanted ordnance to be a viable option. Sadly, we got triple U-boats instead.

Currently 99% of Rebel small bases are now obsolete. Maybe folks won't shed a tear for the loss of Rebel Regen and Stresshogs. But you should be upset that Ghost + whatever is about all we'll see for the foreseeable future.

I'll keep flying, and doing a good bit of losing with, the ships I like the looks of most of all regardless of the meta. But I feel sorry for the players who want to fly something other than the meta overlords in tournaments. They are in for a long hike in wet boots.

Incoherent? Yes, a bit. But I did warn you this was knee jerk.

Edit: and yes I will have another beer, thanks.

Reading the negativity in this thread is baffling.

A/ if you don't like it anymore...try something else. Bye!

B/ tourneys lead to bleeding edge lists that suck to play against.

Don't play tourneys. Simple.

Speaking as someone who avoids tourneys like the plague, this game is the best it's been. Triple Scouts seem retarded, so I don't play them. Palp aces is amazing, I don't play them that often. Tie punishers suck badly, I like winning (or trying to) with them.

A win with crap like a punisher is worth more to me than a dozen wins with palp and his buddies. I like trying to make Cobra commander work. The game is what you make of it. If you find you have issues, maybe the problem is you.

You do know everyone profits from good balance be they tournament or casual player and i've heard that don't buy so often on other forums regarding criticism about GW that i really don't get it anymore. Is it really so hard to understand that people like the game but see it's flaws (which every game has) and want them adressed?

Razgriz25thinf, did not whine in his first post, he didn't call it unplayable or bad he just voiced a concern which is totally fine and a forum is a good place for it, you can of course have a different opinion but just because someone criticises the game or points out some flaws doesn't mean he hates it and should stop playing, on the contrary i would say he likes it and wants it to become a better game.

Oh really, so you say Arcdodgers must excell against both turrets and jousters? Wrong, think again.

AT didn't make dodgers that already ate jousters alive super-effective against turrets? Wrong, think again.

TLT is good against 3(4) evade token-stackers that can even stay in the donut hole half of the time? Wrong, think again.

As a dedicated aggressor player I can definitely say you are 146% wrong assuming IGs can outgun Defender list. white\green K-turns, 2(3) actions against red turns, huge base prone to blocks and asteroids, and 1(2) actions per turn. Go check your math first.

1. Autothrusters exists because the design of the primary weapon turret (something I maintain to this day was a design mistake) completely negates the mechanic the TIE interceptor relies on to survive: arc dodging. Its gameplay prior to PalpAces was about avoiding getting shot at all because three hull doesn't last long. The rise of the Fat Falcon killed the TIE interceptor off because a Falcon is impossible to arc dodge: Wave 5 was the final nail in that coffin. Autothrusters was made to give arc-dodgers a limited ability to dodge turrets. The idea is that a turret then has to try to keep the interceptor in arc as much as possible. Post Wave 5 PWTs have also always had mechanics to encourage arc use through pilot abilities or superior secondary weapons: the turret is a weaker backup weapon rather than the ship's main damage mode.

2. It makes them more effective against a turret that refuses to adjust but it's still an unfavourable matchup. PalpAces isn't what's keeping the Outrider, Decimator and Falcon out of the metagame.

3. TLT only needs to hit Soontir three times and it gets eight shots a round. If you go into the donut hole that's still six. TLT Spam gets burned by ordnance alpha strike, not by PalpAces.

4. Are you sure you mean outgun? You're talking about dials.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

People like you infuriate me.

He's right though.

WORLDS 2012 - Wave 1 Tournament

Won by Dallas Parker iirc.

The best possible list in Wave 1 is the Howl Swarm, but the winning list contained an original TIE advanced.

WORLDS 2013 - Wave 3 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the TIE swarm hands down. The TIE Swarm is why Wave 4 has so much generic hate in it. Won by XXBB, a list designed to be able to beat the TIE swarm by outflying it with the bizarre behaviour of the Adv Sensor B-wing.

WORLDS 2014 - Wave 5 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the Fat Falcon and Phantom + Miniswarm. Won by a Fat Falcon tailored to kill Fat Falcons.

WORLDS 2015 - Wave 7 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Won by a toolkit list containing a T-70, a single TLT Y-wing, a Stresshog and iirc a Z-95. Never became a netlist. PalpAces was in this tournament.

The only time the popular archetype won was Worlds 2014 and even then it was a new form of it specialised to kill others of its archetype: it brought the previously dismissed R2-D2 Crew out of nowhere to take the Falcon's durability from ignore two hits to ignore three.

No, i'm not disputing whether he was right or not. Not what i cared about at all.

What infuriated me was his complete smug assuredness and arrogance, to say "Wrong." with nothing else, and not explain why or give any kind of reason why.

I could believe that i was wrong about that. Ok, cool. Small, ultimately meaningless thing to pick on which really doesnt change all that much anyways, but if you think i'm wrong, TELL ME WHY.

No, i'm not disputing whether he was right or not. Not what i cared about at all.

What infuriated me was his complete smug assuredness and arrogance, to say "Wrong." with nothing else, and not explain why or give any kind of reason why.

I could believe that i was wrong about that. Ok, cool. Small, ultimately meaningless thing to pick on which really doesnt change all that much anyways, but if you think i'm wrong, TELL ME WHY.

He didn't really need to say anything else. He's not disagreeing with an opinion, he's pointing out that the statement you mate is factual incorrect. The netlist of the wave wins Worlds, true or false? False.

And if it's small and meaningless why even say it in the first place?

I agree with most of what OP says, even though I've never heard of Fox Mcwhatshisname and Jigglypussy, or whatever the hell he was talking about. :-)

But I do think that the game will likely need a reboot sometime in the near future to stay relevant. What I particularly hate about x-wing is the fact that it's often better to employ several no-names than to get the Star Wars dudes, and even if there are lists where the characters we know and love are good, they're always grossly unfluffy. This was actually my main gripe with the game when I bought into it during wave 1-2 and I'd forgotten all about it when I bought into it again. Soontir Fell with thrusters and SD is exactly where he should be imo, it's Palp that breaks him. Soontir Fel was one of the best pilots in the galaxy and I love that his abilities in this game puts him up there. He is flying without shields and if something goes wrong, it goes wrong for Soontir really fast. I like that.

However I hate Scouts. WHY is a scouting ship that was never intended for combat able to outfly, outlast and outgun everything the rebellion has in it's arsenal? It's silly, the only combat modified jumpmaster was the Punishing one, and Dengar flew that.

Even the Manaroo list is so unfluffy it hurts (even though articles say that it's fluffy) Manaroo flew one jumpmaster, and guess which one, Punishing One! Because she was Dengars wife. Why would she get her own? It's just silly.

Obviously its because X-Wing is a tabletop game that holds the illusion of being a star wars game, when in reality it's just a TTG that uses names from that universe. This is, in my opinion really bad. This especially goes to show when we look at Luke Skywalker. Luke, for Gods sake, he's miserable in this game, Luke, you know, the friggin' hero in Star Wars.

Millenium Falcon is as far as I know, the only ship where the generic pilot actually has other stats than the other ones, I would have wished that they had stuck to that theme.

What would have been nice was if they had three different dials for the ships. PS 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9, to reflect how the better pilots could fly their ships better than the rookies.

Another gripe is bumping. How can it be, that better pilots are more prone to being blocked by poor pilots? It's just plain idiotic, there should be some sort of problem involved for a rookie that blocks, like the guy getting blocked getting a free shot at the guy, or maybe just rolling a die like when hitting asteroids. "Great flying today Wedge, right up until the point where a random TIE no name flew in front of you and shocked hou so much that you weren't able to do any defensive maneuvers'.

I'll probably keep buying into the game though, but I don't like the way things are going at the moment.

I agree with most of what OP says, even though I've never heard of Fox Mcwhatshisname and Jigglypussy, or whatever the hell he was talking about. :-)

I'm not sure if this explains it or just makes it more confusing.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

People like you infuriate me.

He's right though.

WORLDS 2012 - Wave 1 Tournament

Won by Dallas Parker iirc.

The best possible list in Wave 1 is the Howl Swarm, but the winning list contained an original TIE advanced.

WORLDS 2013 - Wave 3 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the TIE swarm hands down. The TIE Swarm is why Wave 4 has so much generic hate in it. Won by XXBB, a list designed to be able to beat the TIE swarm by outflying it with the bizarre behaviour of the Adv Sensor B-wing.

WORLDS 2014 - Wave 5 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Dominant list is the Fat Falcon and Phantom + Miniswarm. Won by a Fat Falcon tailored to kill Fat Falcons.

WORLDS 2015 - Wave 7 Tournament

Won by Paul Heaver.

Won by a toolkit list containing a T-70, a single TLT Y-wing, a Stresshog and iirc a Z-95. Never became a netlist. PalpAces was in this tournament.

The only time the popular archetype won was Worlds 2014 and even then it was a new form of it specialised to kill others of its archetype: it brought the previously dismissed R2-D2 Crew out of nowhere to take the Falcon's durability from ignore two hits to ignore three.

Worlds hasnt been won by what was previously CONSIDERED the best list perhaps, but I'd argue that by winning worlds the winning lists probed they WERE the best.

First worlds was won by Doug Kinney btw. Dallas Parker would be flatered I'm sure though, but he is perhaps more well known for his loss to Paul in 2013 in one of the greatest games of X-wing ever played.

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

I know a lot of people, especially on this forum, play X Wing as a purely mechanical contest of skill, and they couldn't care less if they were flying an X Wing or a Cylon Raider or a Sopwith Camel, they just want to match wits and test their build against their opponent. And that's fine, no one is going to tell you how to spend your spare time.

But there's just as many people (I would argue there's many MORE people) who love X Wing purely because it's Star Wars, an for those people, seeing the game dominated by ships they may never have heard of, or seeing ships which should be one-of-a-kind bukakked onto the table kills the experience for them, especially when the ships they know and love from the movies fly like garbage, or fly completely different to the way they should.

And there's the problem of bloating the game with each wave adding more and more stuff to the core rules (S-Loops, Talon Rolls, etc) and adding

And of course the game is bloating with more and more added to it in each wave.

I love Star Wars, and like playing X Wing because I like flying X Wings and TIE Bombers and other cool Star Wars ships, but I don't like the direction the game is heading.

Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

They needed pilots.

seeing the game dominated by ships they may never have heard of

The EU ships seem to be some of the most popular in my experience.

r seeing ships which should be one-of-a-kind bukakked onto the table

Wave 2?

especially when the ships they know and love from the movies fly like garbage, or fly completely different to the way they should.

The Wave 1 ships are as they are because they're Wave 1 ships. I can't think of any examples of this outside of Wave 1.

And there's the problem of bloating the game with each wave adding more and more stuff to the core rules (S-Loops, Talon Rolls, etc) and adding

And of course the game is bloating with more and more added to it in each wave.

What else can they do? If you don't add anything new you run out of design space.

r seeing ships which should be one-of-a-kind bukakked onto the table

Wave 2?

I dunno, were people spamming YT1300s and Firesprays back then? If so, then yes. The game should never have allowed or encouraged anti-thematic lists like that.

What else can they do? If you don't add anything new you run out of design space.

This sort of gets back to what I was saying about the differences between players invested in the game mostly from a competitive point of view vs those who love it because it's Star Wars. Players who just want the competition thrive on new upgrades and mechanics being added to the game, which is fine for them but really starts to impact on the enjoyment of people who like the game because it's Star Wars, because inevitably ships get left behind, new ships get all the new hotness, and newer ships are released not because they're cool and people want them, but because they can be used to push a new mechanic into the game and change the meta. It's no longer about building the most Star Wars game they can, but about building the most interesting competitive environment they can, which means that with each subsequent wave the Star Wars feels more and more thin, like butter scraped over too much bread.

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

It's not like Keyan Farlander in a B-Wing makes more sense.

As much as I hate the, "If you don't like it, don't buy it," excuse, I think it actually applies here. Nobody is forcing you to play ships you don't want, and you can always talk to your opponent if you want to just fly the classics (Communicating like Adults? NOT IN MY WARGAME!). I've oft heard you praise the scenarios and non-standard formats for this game, Chucknuckle- Such formats lend themselves to the type of gameplay you clearly want. The release of new waves need not hurt your experience, since it seems like the product you really want from FFG would be a campaign box set, and that'd be a separate release (My advice? Encourage your Armada playing friends to buy the Correlian Conflict when it comes out, and once it does, post about experiences with it on these forums)

Now, seal clubbing and pubstomping with lists like Dengaroo, Palp Aces, and the Wolf Pack are a separate problem, but that's more a community problem than something FFG is directly involved in. I guess it might sting a little more to be crushed by some ship you've only seen as part of this game, but the real problem is more likely to be your opponent's attitude.

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

It's not like Keyan Farlander in a B-Wing makes more sense.

There was an entire expansion to X-wing dedicated to the B-wing, and it was by far the most formidable of the Rebel fighters in those games (Well, it was so wildly different from the A-wing that it's hard to compare the two, but the B-wing was a strict upgrade to the Y-wing in those games, and a 10% speed reduction compared to the X was worth it for the vastly increased firepower and huge durability increase). It was a B-wing or an X-wing, and the he had far less competition for a B-wing pilot card than he did for an X-wing pilot card.

Wow this thread is like confession time in reality shows lol. I really don't have this kind of negative attitude in the game. Remember people there are many ways to play this game, competitive and casual. You want fluff, fly classic lists, go with a theme, don't allow anyone to use the top ps pilot or the cheapest pilot (I highly recommend this as a fun challenge) you can play the missions, you can play hotac, or just make up house rules, it's a game you bought, you can do what you want after that. Everyone wants to criticize the designers, well design a better system and play that way. If your into the competitive, we everything can't be the best, in a game of numbers, somethings are going to be better. Now I don't think our meta is perfect, but it's also been worse, palp aces only over powered element is palp, I don't see triple aces making big waves out there, which I'd it was all autothrusters fault, then you would see it more often. The jumpmaster shoved out small base rebels, which does contain anti ace upgrades. But they aren't ultimate evil, but if you got rid of palp and dead eye I would agree we would have a more colorful meta, but I would like to see what happens with all of new stuff on its way.

X wings biggest problem is the over analysis by all of us, lol. Because we argue and discuss it so much, it's little flaws blow up. When I play people it still feels like I'm flying against a person, not a list. This year I was in a regional with like 70 some odd people. I flew chirpy whisper, with palp and vader, got 12th overall with a 4 and 2 record. I flew against a 4 ship rebel, then u boats with 2 boats and mux, then I flew against 3 b wings and a stress bot, then the omega soontier and palp, then two phantoms and scourge, then soontier Carnor palp. No game felt the same and the wins were earned and the fails were errors. My friend went 3 and 3 running 3 y wings with torps and autoblaster and a feedback z. He never flew that exact list before and he never played anyone but me and a couple friends, but he mostly only played me. So yeah, I get a lot of your points, but I guess the game super fun and interesting to me

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

It's not like Keyan Farlander in a B-Wing makes more sense.

Farlander in a B-wing actually happened. Corran in an E-wing is the odd one.

But every X-Wing world's has been won by the best list at the time.

Wrong.

Weeeeell, philosophically - a list that has beaten all opponents at a World Class event is by it's nature, the very best list at that moment.

Now, could that same player have beaten the themselves using a "better" list... we'll never know.

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

It's not like Keyan Farlander in a B-Wing makes more sense.

Farlander in a B-wing actually happened. Corran in an E-wing is the odd one.

Corran is justifiable, though. Rogue Squadron were given E-wings during the Dark Empire comics, and since Corran would have been part of the squadron at the time it makes sense to assume he'd have flown them.

I see a lot of things in this thread that I agree with. FFG has, IMO, left the Star Wars out of X Wing for some time now, and is focused purely on selling a collectible card game with a Star Wars skin. The game allows (and rewards) some bizarre combinations that would have never occurred in the Star Wars universe and the focus is so obviously on changing the 100/6 meta with each wave that the game lacks any soul. Shara Bey in an ARC? What the hell is that about?

It's not like Keyan Farlander in a B-Wing makes more sense.

There was an entire expansion to X-wing dedicated to the B-wing, and it was by far the most formidable of the Rebel fighters in those games (Well, it was so wildly different from the A-wing that it's hard to compare the two, but the B-wing was a strict upgrade to the Y-wing in those games, and a 10% speed reduction compared to the X was worth it for the vastly increased firepower and huge durability increase). It was a B-wing or an X-wing, and the he had far less competition for a B-wing pilot card than he did for an X-wing pilot card.

Huh, didn't realize that.

Now I want to try it out.

No nerfs... it over complicates things and isn't needed. I agree it has ruined many games

Since we're all voicing weird and unpopular views as to what is hurting X-wing ATM, let me drop this one:

I hate the Scum faction. If I had my way they would be removed from the game.

I like the idea of the Imperials hiring Boba Fett, and various other unsavoury characters to fight/hunt the Rebels. I also love Han Solo and other lovable rogues with hearts of gold assisting the Rebels to fight the Empire.

I absolutely despise Scum being there own faction. Thematically it doesn't make all that much sense, they've got all the lamest lists to play against (Bro-bots, Uboats, Quad-TLT, Dengaroo), and they've some-what pushed the Rebels out of the meta. Also they have all the ugliest ships.

Since we're all voicing weird and unpopular views as to what is hurting X-wing ATM, let me drop this one:

I hate the Scum faction. If I had my way they would be removed from the game.

I like the idea of the Imperials hiring Boba Fett, and various other unsavoury characters to fight/hunt the Rebels. I also love Han Solo and other lovable rogues with hearts of gold assisting the Rebels to fight the Empire.

I absolutely despise Scum being there own faction. Thematically it doesn't make all that much sense, they've got all the lamest lists to play against (Bro-bots, Uboats, Quad-TLT, Dengaroo), and they've some-what pushed the Rebels out of the meta. Also they have all the ugliest ships.

C'mon, Brobots is great to play against. The problem is how monotonous it is to play against, because for so very long they were the only Scum lists worth taking, and they all play fundamentally similar games, regardless of what hilarious trickery they've got installed on a given matchup, so they started to feel overdone.

My own thought: The reason nerfs are so rare is because any nerf that does anything to change squadbuilding isn't viable in the format released. Every FAQ, Errata, and nerf to date has changed the mechanics without changing the lists you can show up to tournament with, with the exception of Tactician and Experimental Interface (which was actually a reprint) for a reason - they want to avoid people showing up to a game with illegal lists as much as possible.

Making Deadeye unique adds yet another trap for the unwary; another way to be accidentally ruined before the tournament even starts. Unlike Tactician and EI, the card in question is in perfectly heavy use, too. It's the card and combos that broke it; I'm just sad that it wasn't spotted in testing.

FAQs and erratas are the nerf.