I'm sorry there is just no way that this upgrade is togglable. The card itself tells you it is always on. Otherwise it would say ""You MAY treat the attack as obstructed". Other "While" effects will have the term "may", but this one doesn't give you an option. It's always on "While" squadrons are shooting at each other.

There is literally no wiggle room on this... it is crystal clear.

100% true.

HOWEVER, the RRG specifically states that all upgrade cards are optional to resolve, UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE.

And JF doesn't specify otherwise. No cannot, for example.

The likely intent is that it's always on (IMO), but it does a poor job of conveying this.

Ardaedhel and err404, in the spirit of sportsmanship, love of the game, and bullheadedness on my part, I accept.

"Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified." (pg.5)

I feel the second sentence will see me through and keep RAW intact.

Good luck gents!!!

I'm sorry there is just no way that this upgrade is togglable. The card itself tells you it is always on. Otherwise it would say ""You MAY treat the attack as obstructed". Other "While" effects will have the term "may", but this one doesn't give you an option. It's always on "While" squadrons are shooting at each other.

There is literally no wiggle room on this... it is crystal clear.

100% true.

HOWEVER, the RRG specifically states that all upgrade cards are optional to resolve, UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE.

And JF doesn't specify otherwise. No cannot, for example.

The likely intent is that it's always on (IMO), but it does a poor job of conveying this.

Sure it specifies it. It says While a squadron at distance 1-2 is attacking or defending, the attack is treated as obstructed . To me that's still crystal clear. it means always.

I understand that some folks would feel better if it didn't say "while", or that the rules have special wording for the term "while"... but I don't even see this as requiring an FAQ.

Also, you still DO get to control this effect you know.... If you activate squadrons, you can move them up ahead, engage - attack, THEN move your Flotilla up close to within range and protect your little guys. This way you can still have them shoot unobstructed and defend obstructed if you engage from far enough away.

Yes, I agree with this interpretation, no question there.

But it's a while effect, and hence optional. The RRG is crystal clear.

-Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified.

The game lists the following types of cards in the LtP: Ship Card, Objective Card, Reference Cards, Damage Cards and Upgrade Cards.

So we have the first sentence referring to Upgrade Card effects being Optional by default, and the second sentence highlighting that the effects from other cards (Damage, Objectives, Etc) are Mandatory.

Reading JF, after you get through the conditional requirements to trigger the effect (While a squadron at distance 1-2 is attacking or defending) we end up with an Upgrade Card Effect of (the attack is treated as obstructed).

*Note that the definition of the ‘while’ conditional might lead to second, independent flow leading to the effect as optional.

I fail to see how the card stating what the effect is (the attack is treated as obstructed) can be seen as anything more than a description of the effect. There is nothing that indicates a break from the the default flow of the rules that state upgrade card effects are optional.

The lack of a “May” doesn’t change anything. If optional effect required a “May” then the rule specifying that “upgrade card effect are optional” should be removed from the RRG. If you think “May” is required then you are treating the rule as being “Mandatory unless specified”.

What I find funny about this thread is the confidence of both sides. I truly can’t see a way to read this card in light of the RRG as anything other than Optional (despite intentions). It is clear as day to me. While others read the card and are as certain that the card is Mandatory.

But there is little left to discuss. The FAQ will be here soon enough.

We can get at least two more pages out of going around in circles though, right?

My personal feeling on the upgrades as optional is that it ties in to missed opportunities. If you forget to apply it, then you don't get to go back and redo the turn... but you don't get to tell your opponent that I'm just not doing this on my turn, but we are on yours... if you (or your opponent) forget it, that's different.

But that's also not written out in the rules - just the opinion of I, Don Karnage, Air Pirate.

We can get at least two more pages out of going around in circles though, right?

This is where I'm at with this. As soon as people start writing phrases like "The rules are crystal clear," they're no longer merely giving opinions. If the situation were crystal clear, there would be no discussion at all.

We can get at least two more pages out of going around in circles though, right?

This is where I'm at with this. As soon as people start writing phrases like "The rules are crystal clear," they're no longer merely giving opinions. If the situation were crystal clear, there would be no discussion at all.

Hahaha.. Its like starting an argument with "I'm an honorable man, you can trust me" when asking a person to co-sign a lease

Dano, at the tournament where I saw you and this was tossed up as toggleable, I think it was on the basis of RAW, not RAI. I'm convinced it is always on via RAI, and I expect an FAQ not an errata to clarify this.

I'm curious exactly what the community breakdown is for what the appropriate effect of the card *should* be. Could we strawpoll it?

It seems like even the folks who feel the current RAW has it as toggleable, believe that its supposed to be always on and will be addressed in the FAQ.

Dano, at the tournament where I saw you and this was tossed up as toggleable, I think it was on the basis of RAW, not RAI. I'm convinced it is always on via RAI, and I expect an FAQ not an errata to clarify this.

I'm curious exactly what the community breakdown is for what the appropriate effect of the card *should* be. Could we strawpoll it?

.

My stance IS based on RAW. " All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified". <---See that there period? That's my stance on it...RAW. I may add RAI to back points occasionally, but that's not the case here.

'May' is optional. You are NOT required to use a 'May'. 'Must' is not optional. Its as plain as day to me as its as plain as day to those opposite my stance. " All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified".

" All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified".

..... and now Dano knows what it is like, to be Dras on the Rules Forum

Is the card an upgrade card? Yes

So why do you keep quoting the rule for other cards Versch?

And I've stated already, every card that is optional says "may" on it. if all cards are already optional? Explain why please, I'd love to hear the rational.

There was zero need to put "may" into the wording of so many different upgrade cards, if they are all already a choice on whether you use them or not.

Because including 'may' does not break any rules, regardless of if whether resolving the effect was Optional or Mandatory. Using 'may' can easily be viewed as the writer simply being more verbose than necessary.

Now if 'may' really is required on a card to make it optional, then the rule stating that "Upgrade Card Effects are optional" is wrong and should be amended.

This seems to be part of the issue. Every other upgrade card is written compatible with upgrade cards being Mandatory by default. It is almost as if the designer forgot this rule when they began writing card effects.

As far as the intent, who can say for sure. There are reasonable arguments that suggest that they did miss word the card. We'll see in the FAQ.

Versch, you are suggesting that RF obstructing squad attacks isn't an Upgrade Card Effect. Can you provide an example of something that you do consider an Upgrade Card Effect?

Is the card an upgrade card? Yes

So why do you keep quoting the rule for other cards Versch?

I'm NOT quoting a rule for 'Other cards'. I'm quoting 'all other card effects', which in the English I've been taught, and the context to which the sentence is structured, means 'Everything else on the same card'.

The misinterpretation of 'all other card effects' meaning all cards outside of the one being spoken about is so left field.

@err404 JF is in fact a card effect.

I'm not asking for an example of a "card effect". I want an example of what you consider an "upgrade card effect".

Jamming Fields like Titus are over priced and considering they are cheap to begin with that tells you something.

I have a question for the every upgrade card is optional people.

I believe only cards that offer a choice are optional. (just stating my view on the matter)

FFG stated that a ship with Gunnery Teams on it, cannot shoot at the same ship twice if the objective in play is Advanced Gunnery. Because the "Cannot" on Gunnery Teams is absolute. Surely if every upgrade card was optional, FFG would have stated "but only if you choose to use your Gunnery Team."? in fact there is no choice, if you have Gunnery Teams, you cannot chose not to use them and shoot the same ship twice.

So if FFG are on record stating that there is no choice in the matter, why do you think there is one?

I have a question for the every upgrade card is optional people.

I believe only cards that offer a choice are optional. (just stating my view on the matter)

FFG stated that a ship with Gunnery Teams on it, cannot shoot at the same ship twice if the objective in play is Advanced Gunnery. Because the "Cannot" on Gunnery Teams is absolute. Surely if every upgrade card was optional, FFG would have stated "but only if you choose to use your Gunnery Team."? in fact there is no choice, if you have Gunnery Teams, you cannot chose not to use them and shoot the same ship twice.

So if FFG are on record stating that there is no choice in the matter, why do you think there is one?

I don't understand why you think I am trolling.

We have all been arguing back and forth about what is actually optional or not as per the rules, and I thought I had found an answer. FFG stated an upgrade card is in effect always, there is no choice.

I have a question for the every upgrade card is optional people.

I believe only cards that offer a choice are optional. (just stating my view on the matter)

FFG stated that a ship with Gunnery Teams on it, cannot shoot at the same ship twice if the objective in play is Advanced Gunnery. Because the "Cannot" on Gunnery Teams is absolute. Surely if every upgrade card was optional, FFG would have stated "but only if you choose to use your Gunnery Team."? in fact there is no choice, if you have Gunnery Teams, you cannot chose not to use them and shoot the same ship twice.

So if FFG are on record stating that there is no choice in the matter, why do you think there is one?

I brought this up a ways back. This thread continues on mightily.

I have a question for the every upgrade card is optional people.

I believe only cards that offer a choice are optional. (just stating my view on the matter)

FFG stated that a ship with Gunnery Teams on it, cannot shoot at the same ship twice if the objective in play is Advanced Gunnery. Because the "Cannot" on Gunnery Teams is absolute. Surely if every upgrade card was optional, FFG would have stated "but only if you choose to use your Gunnery Team."? in fact there is no choice, if you have Gunnery Teams, you cannot chose not to use them and shoot the same ship twice.

So if FFG are on record stating that there is no choice in the matter, why do you think there is one?

I brought this up a ways back. This thread continues on mightily.

My apologies Mads, I missed it in the epic mire this thread has become.

The other thread prompted this line of thought (where it is being argued by Ollie that Bomber Commands do not stack.) when I said about X-17s and Lyr posted they are optional (in this thread) and I had a eureka moment when I thought about GT/AG interaction.

'Cannot' seams to be considered by FFG an explicit statement that overrides the optional default. Remember 'cannot' is a keyword term that is absolute in overriding other rules.

I can point to a rule that states that 'upgrade card effects' are optional. Do you have a reason not consider the effect on RF as an 'upgrade card effect'? I have heard others claim that it is an "other card effect". But "Other card effects" can only be a coherent term if we first understand what "upgrade card effects" are. "Other card effects" are simply those that do not fall into the set of "upgrade card effects".

If you are uncertain as to what an "upgrade card effect" is, you have no basis for determining mandatory vs optional.

In my mind these terms make perfect sense. "Upgrade card effects" are the effects on upgrade cards, and "other card effects" are everything else.

To me this interpretation make sense from a design point of view. "Upgrade card effects" are owned by the player and make sense to be optional by default. While "other cards effects" are imposed on the player (think damage cards and objectives) and make sense to be Mandatory by default.

That said, if you disagree, I am open to hear your interpretation. But that has to start with a clear understanding of what an "upgrade card effect" is.

Except cannot can and is overridden by upgrade / components when the "cannot" is in the RRG

The only time "cannot" is absolute when it is on an upgrade card.

If all upgrade cards are optional in use, then GT is optional in use, and so is Slaved Turrets, and yet FFG have stated that there always in effect, because if they were not always in effect, they would not have posted what they did to clarify Advanced Gunner and its interaction with them two upgrade cards.

And yet again, if all upgrade cards are optional, why did they specifically word so many of them, with an optional use in the wording, seems pretty **** counter intuitive to me, not to mention a waste of ink.

The point I am making, it does not matter if the upgrade card says "cannot" on it or not, if the usage of the card is optional, the "cannot" only comes into effect when you choose to use it, and then you adhere to the wording of the upgrade card, as it is being used.