Anyone ever mix one of those into their squad? It seems you'd want to put SPA on them because they move first, so denying an action would be hard.

Somebody way back when ran 2 with Jax to moderate success.

You wouldn't run them as phantoms really you'd just accept their death and front load your damage hoping to get some good early shots in.

I've tried them on various occasions. Never once did a sigma do much for me, but for whatever reason the shadow squad did well. One squad I ran awhile back was echo, doom shuttle and a shadow... I think, that seemed to work well. Gave my opponent some tough choices as to who to gun down first

So glad we're talking about Phantoms again!

Ian Holmes went to 10th in swiss at the UK Nats with dual Phantoms and a blocker and Deci/Phantom was well represented there too as well as worldwide.

Phantoms are back baby!

Sigmas are neat because they occupy a nice PS band right now. You could run three Sigs, all loaded up and still win the PS bid against U-Boats. Arc dodging them is a good way to win and with the advantages of SPA in a move first shoot first scenario is quite nice.

Sigma int agent fcs stygium is a measly 30

Fly smart and they excel

until you run into turrets

Then you cry because no amount of skill will save you

So glad we're talking about Phantoms again!

Ian Holmes went to 10th in swiss at the UK Nats with dual Phantoms and a blocker and Deci/Phantom was well represented there too as well as worldwide.

Phantoms are back baby!

Sigmas are neat because they occupy a nice PS band right now. You could run three Sigs, all loaded up and still win the PS bid against U-Boats. Arc dodging them is a good way to win and with the advantages of SPA in a move first shoot first scenario is quite nice.

Problem is once they are decloaked, in most cases fire last, leaving them with the agility and hp of a z95. Yes they get the free evade for a round, but even so a couple of good shoots will take them down quick.

I've been wishing to see some sort of new upgrade that may breathe new life back into them (generics, not unique) but I won't hold my breath.

I've always found the best way to run a generic is to put it in a squad with something else that'll make your opponent go "holy **** I don't want to deal with that" it's about learning when to decloak to hit, and cloak to run, but even so, they didn't live long when they decloak.

I thought maybe collision detector may help, for 0 points it's not bad, but fcs is nicer, but maybe that's the case on the unique vs generic. Maybe it'll help make the generic a little more unpredictable, or at least give it more options. Decloak over debris, take 0 dmg, get a stress then do a green to clear the stress. I may try fool around with it eventually

SJ, SPA, and what ever crew. Enjoy. Those definitely don't die like Zs. They are much...much more annoying.

I've had fun with them. I'll occasionally run a troll list with a Sigma carrying Sensor Jammer, Rebel Captive or Mara Jade, and a Stealth Device. Cloak it up and stay cloaked, but people can't seem to not shoot at at it.

Sigma int agent fcs stygium is a measly 30

Fly smart and they excel

until you run into turrets

Then you cry because no amount of skill will save you

Honestly, I don't know why Phantoms had to be nerfed. And large ships didn't. *whining.

Seriously though. Sigmas look super fun. They just.. die without ever killing anything.

You can always try running four sigmas naked, cross your fingers and see what goes down. Been tempted to try that myself but I just cant bring myself to buy two more phantoms.

Three phantoms, two sigmas as blockers and probably buffed whisper might be an interesting list.

Sigma int agent fcs stygium is a measly 30

This is the main build I've used to moderate success. You can also get good mileage out of Kallus for an extra point in this build.

I've also had moderate success with a sensor jammer, Intel and advanced cloaking, but that was in a specific lists with a squad leader Vader so the phantoms could turtle, cloak or barrel roll at PS 9. I need advanced cloak for the repositioning over defence in that list. Blocking someone and then rolling out of contact, out of arc for a five dice focus never, ever, EVER gets old.

Phantoms aren't back? Tell that to this years listjuggler results man.

Sigma int agent fcs stygium is a measly 30

Fly smart and they excel

until you run into turrets

Then you cry because no amount of skill will save you

I've used a pair with this loudout with Vessery (fcs feeds his ability) and with Deathrain (IA let's him know where to drop bombs). Worked pretty well and was a lot of fun.

KineticOperator's Six Sigma list is worth a look:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/126749-six-sigma-list-any-battle-recordings/

Phantoms still blow my mind

Phantoms aren't back? Tell that to this years listjuggler results man.

But the Generics are nowhere to be seen. So no phantoms are not back. They are where they've been for awhile now

I typically bring a single Sigma loaded with stygum, scopes, and Intel for a multi-purpose blocker in most of my lists. They're daggum fun to fly and either carry the team or burn down turn 2. Usually I use them as a blocker early game and transition to an arc-dodger after the first damage has been done.

It's a ship the flies very differently than anything out there and can't afford to get overly aggressive. With good flying they can still be competitive and Intel let's you arc dodge at PS3. They stand no chance vs a PWT though, and that is my biggest issue with the generics. Generics will never be cloaked for the return fire and crew dice mods typically result in a 1-shotted phantom...

Honestly though Krynn, when have generics ever really mattered for Phantoms? They're just not a very good generic type ship. Maybe if we could have some EPTs on them, then we could VI them up to 7 and at least stand a chance against most things.

Another way I like to look at the generics though, is this. They're super beefy X-Wings at 25 points a pop, trading that extra hull for an attack dice and a better action bar. Yes, you're always going to die in the PS war, but against lists that don't out-PS you? It's simply murder.

I'm actually heavily considering picking up a third ship so I can run a triple Shadow list against a local U-Boat player. At PS 5 you can still afford ACD, FCS and still have 1 point to play with. If you fly right, you'll never even see an ordnance attack, and 2 dice vs cloak and a token, well... that just isn't a problem.

Come to think of it, Shady Shadows (triple Shadow Squadron Pilot) might even scare the hell out of Mindlinkers, since they usually occupy the PS5 slot as well. If you could init bid against that, then you'd be golden. The best Mindlink list runs at a hot 100 anyways, so you're pretty set, I'd say.

Also, Dengaroo. Shady Shadows, if flown right, would destroy this silliest of two ship lists. Think about it. Denny is way out front, trying to double tap you. Simply arc dodge him and leave him hanging. Chase down Manny and show her what real mobility looks like, and then come back for Denny. Hell, they're just specialized U-Boats. Skirt that front arc and they're crying.

Of course, all this presupposes that you are a Phantom God and never make mistakes. You are a Phantom God aren't you? Well ya should be! Git flyin'!

the phantom is actually an excellent generic

comparing them to X-wings makes 0 sense. These guys can roll and they have the (almost) utterly unique cloak action

these are playstyle defining and set them worlds apart from the standard crappy "maneuver and then focus maybe" X

also, 4 red dice is kind of bonkers absurd

the problem is the design of the phantom itself, specifically how an incredibly skill orientated ship is slotted into the same game as PWTs

the phantom is an utter glass cannon, so when you run into a ship you literally cannot avoid you're just ******

this is why FFG made Advanced Cloaking Device , to give you double agility (+whisper ability) and some hope of surviving the PWT onslaught, which didn't matter at all because Han is PS 9 and Cheri can VI up to 10

problem is Advanced Cloaking Device doesn't really address the fact that there are ships you simply can't do anything about, all it does is introduce the need to vault into the highest possible PS.

but if you're fighting anything with honest to god firing arcs, the combination de-cloak shenanigans and int agent (l2block) make them far more survivable than their z-95 statline would indicate

Yeah uh, fickle.. you underlined some stuff in bold, but you totally missed my point. The point is that if you change your perception, you can see things differently. Yes, you lose to some things and it seems unavoidable, but then again, weren't you just praising the effectiveness of a good blocker? How is Fat Han going to chase you down if you can consistently block him and deny him those actions?

I wasn't trying to compare Phantoms to X-Wings in the meanest sense of the term, but rather trying to share how I feel about them. Generic Phantoms don't have to be flown in the traditional sense and at 25 points each, I'm pretty hard pressed to find another ship that provides as much value at that points range.

Also, what the hell do PWTs have to do with it? There are like three ships in the game that have true Primary Weapon Turrets and honestly if you're still complaining about how game breaking they are after 14 thousand posts, then I got news for ya... it ain't the turret. Sure turrets wreck face, but... why are you at R1 of a PWT without a token stack anyways? Seems counter-intuitive.

Honestly though Krynn, when have generics ever really mattered for Phantoms? They're just not a very good generic type ship. Maybe if we could have some EPTs on them, then we could VI them up to 7 and at least stand a chance against most things.

Another way I like to look at the generics though, is this. They're super beefy X-Wings at 25 points a pop, trading that extra hull for an attack dice and a better action bar. Yes, you're always going to die in the PS war, but against lists that don't out-PS you? It's simply murder.

I'm actually heavily considering picking up a third ship so I can run a triple Shadow list against a local U-Boat player. At PS 5 you can still afford ACD, FCS and still have 1 point to play with. If you fly right, you'll never even see an ordnance attack, and 2 dice vs cloak and a token, well... that just isn't a problem.

Come to think of it, Shady Shadows (triple Shadow Squadron Pilot) might even scare the hell out of Mindlinkers, since they usually occupy the PS5 slot as well. If you could init bid against that, then you'd be golden. The best Mindlink list runs at a hot 100 anyways, so you're pretty set, I'd say.

Also, Dengaroo. Shady Shadows, if flown right, would destroy this silliest of two ship lists. Think about it. Denny is way out front, trying to double tap you. Simply arc dodge him and leave him hanging. Chase down Manny and show her what real mobility looks like, and then come back for Denny. Hell, they're just specialized U-Boats. Skirt that front arc and they're crying.

Of course, all this presupposes that you are a Phantom God and never make mistakes. You are a Phantom God aren't you? Well ya should be! Git flyin'!

I know the unique are deadly. I fly whisper a lot, but the Generics die way to easily. Tlt spam, turrets, just to name couple things that is hard on them. They can make for good blockers, but their cost isn't cheap, at least that's my opinion

I like to run the odd one for a fun game, but competitively they are dead. I'd like to see something for the Generics that would make them more viable. Don't have to be competitive, but at least help them just ever so slightly. For their point cost I usually can find something better. Once you out some upgrades on them can easily become 30 pts, which can be expensive, especially if you lose one early

I've flown whisper against dengeraoo a few times and it's still not easy. Especially if he gets to shoot first, that zuckass is a *****. Few occasions I roll two evades only to reroll blanks. Whisper has to decloak at some point otherwise you have a very expensive ship doing nothing. At least fel and friends have auto thrusters, something phantoms don't have, so turrets are that much worse on them

Also, what the hell do PWTs have to do with it?

...because NEVER let staying on topic get in the way of a good old fashioned RANT.

anyone who doesn't know what PWTs have to do in a match-up v phantoms have either never flown Phantoms or never played in Wave 5

Sure turrets wreck face, but... why are you at R1 of a PWT without a token stack anyways? Seems counter-intuitive.

Because nothing exist to save a PS3 sigma from having it's face melted before getting to fire. You're either hiding behind 2 dice with an evade, or cloaked and doing nothing but waiting for the greens to fail you. R1 or R3, vs a PWT it almost doesn't even matter. Might as well get into R1 and hope your opponent rolls nothing but blanks with their modified dice. Doesn't make for a fun matchup.

anyone who doesn't know what PWTs have to do in a match-up v phantoms have either never flown Phantoms or never played in Wave 5

Yeah no, I fly Phantoms. My god do I ever fly Phantoms. Wanna see my Rebel list that I fly? It's Whisper and Echo with a bl... oh wait. That's right, all I fly is Phantoms! Lol

But seriously FGDPGS (I'm convinced you're the same person, deal with it) you need to just lay off the PWT/Palp Aces ranting because it's a serious detriment to the intelligent things you have to say.

I have flown against turrets and won. I've also flown against them and lost, so really it's got more to it than pure skill. There is some amount of luck involved too. I mean... there are dice to roll. I've seen Whisper flub out on 6 greens and die horribly, seen it happen where she flubs out and then survives on one health to solo the entire game too so...

Sigmas (Yeah Krynn, I got a little OT, but it's so refreshing to see debate about Phantoms, I guess I just got a lil crazy...) So you're at R1 of a PWT and you're rockin' one lonely evade token. Well how did you get there? Sigmas get almost no use out of ACD so you're running SPA. Why do only have one token? You don't need to BR out of arc because you don't have AT, so you should have taken a focus action. So now you have two dice, focus and evade. That's really not that bad. Against three dice you have a pretty good chance of only taking one hit. You can spend that focus freely on defense because if you're going after a PWT you had better have FCS lock, right? Right. Also, there is that nasty decloak and move into block to consider.

Look, I'm not saying it's a match-up that's favourable, but if you're conceding the game based on the presence of PWTs before you even engage, then you're always going to lose, no matter what. PWTs are not the absolute bane of Phantoms that everyone thinks. Getting shot at first should only ever happen if the attacker has higher PS than you. That is a fact. If you are planning to run Phantoms you must, I mean absolutely must, bid. The only pilots who should hit Whisper first are VI'd high PS aces. Of course with Sigs this is a little different, but if you are running PS3 Phantoms, then there are just some things you can't avoid. Fortunately you can fit three in a list with SPA and still have room for goodies. I know it's not competitive, but why on earth would anyone think it would be? Is it the fall down dead can't fly at all list that people think it is? Hell no. Would it be competitive in a U-Boat heavy meta? Yeah, probably.