A double red weapon is a good thing, but if it would have been +2 dmg or even Pierce 2, instead of cleave 2, we would have a great weapon that fills a niche.

Now we have 3 multi target melee weapons and 1 (mediocre) single target dmg melee weapons in tier 2

Polearm + Vibrogenerator.

23 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Polearm + Vibrogenerator.

hmm, I forgot about that mod. And I remember now thinking that we just need a double red weapon for that mod to be good.

So yeah, Polearm with Vibrogenerator is on the low end of Tier3 in terms of damage (about on par with force pike w guard), which is to say pretty good for tier 2.

1 minute ago, Deadwolf said:

hmm, I forgot about that mod. And I remember now thinking that we just need a double red weapon for that mod to be good.

And I remembered you thinking that aloud in this forum.

33 minutes ago, Deadwolf said:

hmm, I forgot about that mod. And I remember now thinking that we just need a double red weapon for that mod to be good.

So yeah, Polearm with Vibrogenerator is on the low end of Tier3 in terms of damage (about on par with force pike w guard), which is to say pretty good for tier 2.

It's nice to have another Tier 2 weapon that legitimately contends with the BD-1 Vibro-axe. The double red dice pool and somewhat similar surge capabilities gives it higher unmodified single target damage but lower Cleave chance. Choice is good for the game (vs just buying the same items every time).

I think it definitely competes with BD-1. However, Vibrogenerator is a tier 3 mod so it isnt terrific as a single target weapon until then. And as a tier 3 weapon it is outclassed, but it would allow you to be relevent and allow you to spend tier 3 credits on other characters.

Another thing to consider is that RR is a pretty great target for rerolls. The average damage increase of a reroll ability is higher for Red dice than it is for Green or Blue dice (if you don't take accuracy into account), and I'm pretty sure that it increases for each Red die you add.

3 hours ago, Stompburger said:

Another thing to consider is that RR is a pretty great target for rerolls. The average damage increase of a reroll ability is higher for Red dice than it is for Green or Blue dice (if you don't take accuracy into account), and I'm pretty sure that it increases for each Red die you add.

Yeah, I really love Extra ammunition with Hand Cannon (I believe I even mention that in the article). It is too bad there isn't a melee equivalent.

On 13/10/2017 at 8:27 PM, Deadwolf said:

The new Sniper scope with Tac Display/Sniper Scope & Disruption Cell/Plasma Cell take the crown away from Valken-38 for top ranged dps weapon.

The charge Pistol isnt worth the time.

The Polearm is fine and roughly on par with the other 2 cleave melee weapons, I am just not sure why the developers thought we needed this weapon.

The Hunter's Rifle is straight up worse than EE-3/A280. The dmg token makes up for the dmg differential but not the loss of a mod slot.

Drokkatta's Repeater Cannon is unmatched for ranged multi-target dmg and really should not be skipped imo.

I'll update the main post hopefully sooner rather than later.

What about the mod s? Focusing Beam and Charged Ammo Pack . Could they replace some of the mods on the list on post #1?

Power charger and Supply Pack seems usefull too

1 hour ago, Eyfrosyne said:

What about the mod s? Focusing Beam and Charged Ammo Pack . Could they replace some of the mods on the list on post #1?

Power charger and Supply Pack seems usefull too

Overall, Energized Hilt is superior to Focusing Beam, although it is a tie in some weapons (Like BD-1 for example). They can work decently well together in a 2 mod weapon however. The anti dodge part is hard to evaluate because there are are only a few white die imperial units. If your Imperial player likes playing Nexus, ISBs, or E. Officers, then it may be worth it. Regular Officers do show up a lot in missions but I don't think they are worth teching against.

Charged Ammo Pack is hard to put a value on. Basically, it is only good if you oversurge and you will usually have to choose between the token and recovering strain. That said, I think it is decent on double mod weapons like the DL-44 if you don't think you will be using that mod slot and 100 is a fair price.

I would have liked Supply Pack a lot better if it was in an early tier. Its a fair price for what you get, it is just a shame you get it so late.

Power Charger is great if you have a reliable way to gain tokens (of which the top part is not) like Ko-Tun or Drokkata's Charging Up ability. I am not sure it is worth it on its own.

I have been thinking about adding a mod guide. I may do that when I update it for the lastest expansion.

2 hours ago, Deadwolf said:

Regular Officers do show up a lot in missions but I don't think they are worth teching against.

You may want to consider that sometimes killing a named Imperial officer will be the objective of the mission. In that case, cancelling a dodge could be a huge deal, especially if your team has no dodge-countering abilities in their class cards.

I have updated the original post with most of what was recently discussed. I also added a section at the end for the mods.

I ended up rating the Charged Pistol higher than I thought I would because it is decent with Jyn, who typically uses her starter for a long time (with Dl-44 as an offhand).

And Sniper Rifle does take the top ranged dps spot ( and is only topped overall by RGB ancient lightsaber) for single target, but that takes 2 mods. Valken-38 is still better with 1 mod.

And also Polearm is pretty good with Focusing Beam in tier 2, tiding you over till Vibrogenerator if you want to focus on single target dps. Balanced Hilt obviously being better if you want to reliably cleave.

Can you put the cost of the weapons on the list?

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Can you put the cost of the weapons on the list?

Done.

I think 2 weapons especially stick out when it comes to credits. T-21 costing 900 is way too much & and the Disruptor Pistol costing 700 is way too few.

2 minutes ago, Deadwolf said:

Done.

I think 2 weapons especially stick out when it comes to credits. T-21 costing 900 is way too much & and the Disruptor Pistol costing 700 is way too few.

Speaking of the Disruptor Pistol, should Ko-Tun be in the "Best With" list for that, given her ability to get surge power tokens later on?

20 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

Speaking of the Disruptor Pistol, should Ko-Tun be in the "Best With" list for that, given her ability to get surge power tokens later on?

While there would essentially be no difference between Disruptor Pistol with Tac + dmg token & Distruptor pistol with surge token + spread barrel (tho plasma cell does come out higher). But it does give the option to run the weapon modless, giving you an extremely cost efficient weapon (which is pretty important in HoE), and/or free up the Tac Display for someone else. A self sufficient Ko-Tun would definitely not want to use surge tokens on that weapon however.

7 hours ago, Deadwolf said:

While there would essentially be no difference between Disruptor Pistol with Tac + dmg token & Distruptor pistol with surge token + spread barrel (tho plasma cell does come out higher). But it does give the option to run the weapon modless, giving you an extremely cost efficient weapon (which is pretty important in HoE), and/or free up the Tac Display for someone else. A self sufficient Ko-Tun would definitely not want to use surge tokens on that weapon however.

Right, I was thinking more a Squad Cohesion Ko-Tun.

Bumping this.

I will update the OP when I get the chance but here is the lowdown on the new weapons.

Punch Dagger - It looks better than it is. It is better than your starter so it is fine in tier 1 but becomes obsolete quickly in tier 2. The ability is what gives the weapon value and could be decent on melee characters who are not strain intensive.

E-11D - it is very comparable to the EE-3 and A238 but where it really shines is with tac display+plasma cell. That combo has really good synergy on this platform and in this configuration, not only outshines those weapons but also competes with the best ranged tier 3 weapons.

Bo-Rifle - As far as tier 3 weapons go, it is on the low end in terms of damage. But that isnt factoring the stun, focus, or ranged attack ability. So what it lacks in pure damage, it makes up for in versatility and utility.

The new item combat vambraces are particularly good with red dice (I need to make a new category for items such as this).

On 8/23/2018 at 11:33 PM, Deadwolf said:

I will update the OP when I get the chance but here is the lowdown on the new weapons.

Punch Dagger - It looks better than it is. It is better than your starter so it is fine in tier 1 but becomes obsolete quickly in tier 2. The ability is what gives the weapon value and could be decent on melee characters who are not strain intensive.

E-11D - it is very comparable to the EE-3 and A238 but where it really shines is with tac display+plasma cell. That combo has really good synergy on this platform and in this configuration, not only outshines those weapons but also competes with the best ranged tier 3 weapons.

Bo-Rifle - As far as tier 3 weapons go, it is on the low end in terms of damage. But that isnt factoring the stun, focus, or ranged attack ability. So what it lacks in pure damage, it makes up for in versatility and utility.

The new item combat vambraces are particularly good with red dice (I need to make a new category for items such as this).

Thanks, I am looking forward for OP update.

I think you are woefully undervaluing cost efficient which changes a lot of your ranking.

Hero starting weapons only do something like 1.5 average damage against a black dice opponent. The DL-17 and Vibroknife will do 2.5 average damage against black dice for a measly ~100 credit cost since you sell them back at some point. At least to me, increasing my damage by a full point for 100 credits allows me to skip the horrible cost efficiency weapons in T2 and supply all my heroes with T3 weapons by endgame.

Additionally, how is the A280 an "A" tier weapon... it has garbage damage (2.75 damage against a black dice) and accuracy counts for very little in a campaign. only with guaranteed surges can you get up to 3.16 average damage against a black dice enemy which can only ON AVERAGE kill 1 regular storm trooper.

lastly, you messed up all of Loku's weapon recommendations. He should only use weapons with stun surge options (T-21 or sporting pistol). this allows him to utilize the stun on the weapon in combination with overwatch to interrupt an enemy attack to deny the shot entirely.

I have also made my own spreadsheet that includes average damages of all weapons with their cost efficiency. In the link below. You need to scroll down on the left to find the weapons section.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JaO1MVllj1R83ys9uHDo9qG-RR5XdaXi3fxLpGlWC-E/edit?usp=sharing

3 hours ago, kyo55082 said:

I think you are woefully undervaluing cost efficient which changes a lot of your ranking.

Hero starting weapons only do something like 1.5 average damage against a black dice opponent. The DL-17 and Vibroknife will do 2.5 average damage against black dice for a measly ~100 credit cost since you sell them back at some point. At least to me, increasing my damage by a full point for 100 credits allows me to skip the horrible cost efficiency weapons in T2 and supply all my heroes with T3 weapons by endgame.

Additionally, how is the A280 an "A" tier weapon... it has garbage damage (2.4 damage against a black dice) and accuracy counts for very little in a campaign. only with guaranteed surges can you get up to 3.16 average damage against a black dice enemy which can only ON AVERAGE kill 1 regular storm trooper.

lastly, you messed up all of Loku's weapon recommendations. He should only use weapons with stun surge options (T-21 or sporting pistol). this allows him to utilize the stun on the weapon in combination with overwatch to interrupt an enemy attack to deny the shot entirely.

I have also made my own spreadsheet that includes average damages of all weapons with their cost efficiency. In the link below. You need to scroll down on the left to find the weapons section.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JaO1MVllj1R83ys9uHDo9qG-RR5XdaXi3fxLpGlWC-E/edit?usp=sharing

The A280 is the same as the E-11 but it trades the surge for accuracy for a guaranteed +1 accuracy and a surge for pierce 2. Are you saying the E-11 is garbage as well?

Damage is vs a single black dice (most average defense)

DL-17 has 2.42 average damage, with 2.67 range, 200 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.25 natural damage

E-11 has 2.51 average damage, with 4.83 range, 400 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.15 natural damage

A280 has 2.75 average damage, with 5.83 range, 600 credits (assume 1 guaranteed surge) 2.4 natural damage

Your first 200 credits increase your starting weapons damage from ~1.5ish to 2.4, your next 200 gains you comfortable range on the attack, your last 200 credits gains you +.2 more damage and 1 extra useless range.... from my perspective, DL-17 is a must, E-11 may be worth it going to a none combat oriented hero end game, and A280 is useless.

T1 and T2 weapons only have 2 purposes

1. to temporarily increase your damage until you get access to T3 weapons (of which the DL-17 and Vibroknife are king)

2. to get ONE mid tier gun that will eventually go to a less combat oriented hero at the end. (of which the E-11, 434 deathhammer, and others fit)

Both of the points above lend all T1 and T2 weapons to be the most cost efficient so you can buy MORE T3 weapons. (there is also a special case of T2 weapons that can become T3 with the right mods like the polarm with vibro generator)

5 hours ago, kyo55082 said:

Damage is vs a single black dice (most average defense)

DL-17 has 2.42 average damage, with 2.67 range, 200 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.25 natural damage

E-11 has 2.51 average damage, with 4.83 range, 400 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.15 natural damage

A280 has 2.75 average damage, with 5.83 range, 600 credits (assume 1 guaranteed surge) 2.4 natural damage

Your first 200 credits increase your starting weapons damage from ~1.5ish to 2.4, your next 200 gains you comfortable range on the attack, your last 200 credits gains you +.2 more damage and 1 extra useless range.... from my perspective, DL-17 is a must, E-11 may be worth it going to a none combat oriented hero end game, and A280 is useless.

T1 and T2 weapons only have 2 purposes

1. to temporarily increase your damage until you get access to T3 weapons (of which the DL-17 and Vibroknife are king)

2. to get ONE mid tier gun that will eventually go to a less combat oriented hero at the end. (of which the E-11, 434 deathhammer, and others fit)

Both of the points above lend all T1 and T2 weapons to be the most cost efficient so you can buy MORE T3 weapons. (there is also a special case of T2 weapons that can become T3 with the right mods like the polarm with vibro generator)

Wait. DL-44 or DH-17? There is no DL-17

14 hours ago, kyo55082 said:

DL-17 has 2.42 average damage, with 2.67 range, 200 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.25 natural damage

E-11 has 2.51 average damage, with 4.83 range, 400 credits (assuming guaranteed surge) 2.15 natural damage

A280 has 2.75 average damage, with 5.83 range, 600 credits (assume 1 guaranteed surge) 2.4 natural damage

It's not really very useful to think about this in terms of average damage. It's much better in these games to think in terms of your chance of hitting certain important damage thresholds. e.g. what is the chance of doing 3 damage? That's important, because it one-shots a stormtrooper. If your average damage changes very little, but your chance of hitting a particularly important threshold increases a lot, that's a huge boon.

So for instance, an A280 with a tactical display will do 3 or more damage against a black die 92% of the time. A DH-17 with a tactical display hits 3 damage 52% of the time. If you're trying to take out stormtroopers, this is a huge difference. Now, admittedly, the tactical display is not the most useful thing to put on the DH-17 due to it rolling green/yellow, but it's also important to consider how much a given weapon gets out of being modded, and if the benefit from a mod is large, the weapon itself is better, because it has a higher potential effectiveness. DH-17, for instance, could potentially benefit from an underbarrel for blasting, but there's no way it does consistently high single target damage.

Incidentally, an E-11 with a tactical display does 3 or more damage 64% of the time. The E-11 fails to one-shot a stormtrooper about four times as often as the A280 does, to put that in perspective.

That said, adding a Plasma Cell to the E-11 helps bring it back in line, because the passive pierce makes the surge pierce less valuable on the A280, and the +1 damage surge gives the E-11 something else to do with a second surge, while the A280 will rarely make 3 surges even with a tactical display. The two weapons are nearly identical with both mods, so if you already have the E-11, you're better off just getting a Plasma Cell and passing on the A280.