We have a local player who is an excellent armada player and he runs 3 assault frigates, with an MC80 command with ackbar and home one. He's virtually gone unbeaten with it (he says the list that beats him has 2 decked out assault frigates, but is nearly identical).

I run imperials. I'm going to see this guy, and this list a lot. What is a reasonable counter to something like this. I've been running an ISD, a rhymerball with some anti-squad (no use against this), a goz and either a demolisher or an interdictor. It's not going well.

Any suggestions?

What are the other upgrades on the list? Afmk-2 A's or B's?

He has no squadrons at all ?

The trick with Ackbar lists like this is to have them come to you rather than chasing them around. If you deny them the ability to shoot at you, they get pretty annoyed and eventually, they'll try and get to you, which you can use to pick them apart. Deploy your medium ships first to force him to try and kite you on the opposite direction, then put your heavy hitters and squadrons there.

Don't try to bunch up your fleet, he's probably thrown Gunnery Team on all his AFMK2. I also repeat : don't try and come into him. Just have him come. Ackbar with AFMK2 makes a VERY nasty crossfire zone in the middle. Split your fleet and avoid that area.

Pick objectives like Contested Outpost, Precision Strike and Superior Positions. Play for the Objective rather than the kill. If you have the bid, force him to go first.

The way to dismantle this list is to take out MC80 with Ackbar first and to do it fast. MC80 is pretty predictable in its movement and relatively easy to block. So.. you'll need ships that can survive at least one round of Ackbar shooting and inflict a lot of damage in return.

I would experiment with a double ISD list with IO and XI7.

For Bombers. Make sure your Rhymer ball is 134 points, has 7-8 Bomber dice that it can shoot off each round without question, choose efficient anti squadron and preferably minimise/eliminate Blue battery dice (mauler is one exception) and opt for Black battery dice.

Bombers, Rhymer especially should chew this list apart, it is the counter. Especially if he worms about in a conga line.

The amount of hull he has vs drip damage Bombers means you need to kill the guppies and avoid Home One or kill Home One. But this all depends on deployment, position and the amount of Bomber dice you have.

I have never lost to this type Ackbar list, not when you can stay at Range 7 (boosted Comms/Rhymer) and hit them for 7 Bomber dice.

Superior Positions, Contested Outpost, Assault depends on your carrier and if you take Firesprays.

Three Gupps and a Pickle with Ackbar has virtually no upgrades...

I mean, its something I experimented with to start with:


1 Mc80 Command

3x AFMK-IIBs

Once you stick Ackbar and ECM on them... You have 12 points for Upgrades.

12.

Which means, either:

1) You are going without ECMs.... In which case, a dedicated accuracy list will annihilate you.

2) You have ECMs, and only 12 points of upgrades to spread over 4 ships who all want Turbolasers, which means your other ships are middling range relying on pure, unmodified, Red Dice... (Here's a handy note. Never rely on pure, unmodified, Red Dice).

More information is needed, surely... But there's a lot that the list is vulnerable to... Not limited to:

- Blocking Maneuver

- Split Maneuvering

- CQB in unfriendly arcs

- Massed Bomb Wings

- Locational Objectives

Yeah, no squadrons. Gunnery team I think on the pickle. I ended up doing the worst case scenario and he crossed my T and just unloaded broadside with the pickle and 2 guppies into my ISD and interdictor. I think I should have focused more on the command.

Bombers will do it. Stick them on his nose and watch him disintegrate.

A high-activation, high-bid Demolisher fleet will do it (search on here for "Clonisher"). Jump in from beyond long range and wreck Ackbar's flagship.

A Rieekan CR90B/SW-7 swarm will do it. Focus their fire and you can down a ship every turn from 3-6.

A Dodonna list with 2 MC30Ts, 4 GR-75s, and a cloud of X-wings will do it. Jump the MC30s in and laugh as Ackbar's ship plummets in flames in one round, then mop up the AF2's.

The fleet's big weakness is its deployment curve. Four ships with no squadrons to delay deployments means any fleet with a few delaying deployments can deploy noncommittally until after the pickle is down, then line up on the nose of the conga line and wreck it 1-2 ships at a time. This will let your faster brawling ships charge in very fast to get nose-to-nose with the AF2s, or let your carriers cross the T and throw bombers into them.

See i personally would put trcs on all of the afmk's. Between them and home one you shouldn't need further dice modification.

Yeah, no squadrons. Gunnery team I think on the pickle. I ended up doing the worst case scenario and he crossed my T and just unloaded broadside with the pickle and 2 guppies into my ISD and interdictor. I think I should have focused more on the command.

He cant put gunnery teams on the pickle.

See i personally would put trcs on all of the afmk's. Between them and home one you shouldn't need further dice modification.

Really, that's the best case scenario - But again, TRCs and Home one mean you're lacking Defensive Retrofits, and your Evades are going to disappear very, very, very quickly

See i personally would put trcs on all of the afmk's. Between them and home one you shouldn't need further dice modification.

Really, that's the best case scenario - But again, TRCs and Home one mean you're lacking Defensive Retrofits, and your Evades are going to disappear very, very, very quickly

Oh yeah absolutely. But we work with what we're given. This fleet clearly intends to win through overwhelming firepower, so might as well play to it. Maybe drop walex on something.

See i personally would put trcs on all of the afmk's. Between them and home one you shouldn't need further dice modification.

Really, that's the best case scenario - But again, TRCs and Home one mean you're lacking Defensive Retrofits, and your Evades are going to disappear very, very, very quickly

Oh yeah absolutely. But we work with what we're given. This fleet clearly intends to win through overwhelming firepower, so might as well play to it. Maybe drop walex on something.

Agreed.

Its not easy, but there are certain things that will help.... I mean, an ISD with Montferrat or Needa is already reducing the additional firepower gained by half, and it should be pushing forward to Gunnery Team two at a time.

You're right, no gunnery. He says that the list just eats up demolishers, which I can understand because you'd end up catching crazy broadsides. The advantage he showed against me was the sheer number of red dice thrown. He was adding 2 dice all the time to everything, and 4 ships firing.

My squad list is rhymer, 2x bomber, 1 advanced, Dengar and Mauler. It's been a nice balance of a rhymerball and some anti-squadron. And everyone but mauler fires a black die, so it works okay even when there's no opposing squadron. Not sure it's enough bomber power unto itself to counter this though.

Konstantine.

Speed up the back ships of the conga line. Slow down the front ships.

You're right, no gunnery. He says that the list just eats up demolishers, which I can understand because you'd end up catching crazy broadsides. The advantage he showed against me was the sheer number of red dice thrown. He was adding 2 dice all the time to everything, and 4 ships firing.

My squad list is rhymer, 2x bomber, 1 advanced, Dengar and Mauler. It's been a nice balance of a rhymerball and some anti-squadron. And everyone but mauler fires a black die, so it works okay even when there's no opposing squadron. Not sure it's enough bomber power unto itself to counter this though.

Only if you let him target you. The right demo setup begins from outside of red range, picks a target and eliminates it between its activations. But, thats assuming activation advatage, a massive amount of upgrades and initiative.

My squad list is rhymer, 2x bomber, 1 advanced, Dengar and Mauler. It's been a nice balance of a rhymerball and some anti-squadron. And everyone but mauler fires a black die, so it works okay even when there's no opposing squadron. Not sure it's enough bomber power unto itself to counter this though.

Its not.

And a Demolisher Done Well, is a Demolisher who doesn't care.

It starts outside of Red Range... And then is suddenly in Black Range... If its catching fire, then its catching fire from Rear or Front Arcs, where its eminently survivable and Ackbar can do nothing...

It then Vapourises what it wants.

Then the enemy has to either turn in to face it with a broadside (whcih turns the nose towards your other threat, like an ISD, or a bunch of Raiders, whatever)... Or you eat another thing next turn.

First player.

Or dual ISDs.

First player.

Or dual ISDs.

This was specifically the list I flew. It did not fare well. Konstantine was negligible at best. I did not enjoy him a ton. I got the Overload Pulse off exactly zero times also because I underestimated how slow that ship is. Couldn't effectively get it in there. He selected Fleet ambush. I was thinking hyperspace assault may be a better approach since I could just drop the slow interdictor in the mix and he'd already be in medium. Obviously needs some serious tweaking, but that's why I come to the professionals, right?

Empire, 391

Fleet Ambush, Superior Positions, Precision Strike

ISD-II, Konstantine, Gunnery, ECM, Avenger XI7

Gozanti - expanded hanger, bomber command

Interdictor Suppression: Overload Pulse, Grav Shift, Projection Experts

Rhymer, Bomber x2, advanced, mauler, dengar.

Incidentally, the interdictor does do a tremendous amount of healing.

Yeah, I've also not lost to this type of list. In fact, any mature meta quickly sees this type of list in the bin as it is incredibly predictable and therefore incredibly easy to counter.

Hell if you KNOW this is the list you will face and can build specifically against it, you can beat it in your sleep.

his strength is extra red dice. to beat it, don't let him shoot at your ships. done.

You can be cheeky about it and bring full points of every bomber you own ( I would bring max firesprays plus rhymer) and nothing but bomber command flotillas and raiders. Stay out of red dice arcs and park your bombers in the front arc of his conga. your ships mostly run away and try to stay in range for bomber command without giving him a shot.

Guaranteed you can take out a ship or two and then run your bombers away before AS fire gets them. He will be so frustrated he won't ever want to play you again.

My solution is very simple. Cut his brake lines. The problem will take care of itself.

Yeah, I've also not lost to this type of list. In fact, any mature meta quickly sees this type of list in the bin as it is incredibly predictable and therefore incredibly easy to counter.

Hell if you KNOW this is the list you will face and can build specifically against it, you can beat it in your sleep.

his strength is extra red dice. to beat it, don't let him shoot at your ships. done.

You can be cheeky about it and bring full points of every bomber you own ( I would bring max firesprays plus rhymer) and nothing but bomber command flotillas and raiders. Stay out of red dice arcs and park your bombers in the front arc of his conga. your ships mostly run away and try to stay in range for bomber command without giving him a shot.

Guaranteed you can take out a ship or two and then run your bombers away before AS fire gets them. He will be so frustrated he won't ever want to play you again.

Trollololol. God that would be a hilariously **** countermove, but soooooo funny.

Then again, if hes gonna be predictable in what he brings, make him pay for it.

A few potential ways to go:

1. A list like pt106's regionals list will eat this thing for lunch. 2x Motti ISD is not going to go down fast enough for him to survive it. You jam the swirl (get in front, block his path), and focus down one target at a time; the manuevering to block this list will be key. XI7 + OE or IO + OE is the key on the 2 ISDs. Do not expose the raiders in a list like that against Ackbar until the ISDs have already struck. Against his list, you could even go with 3x Motti ISDs if you want to get real silly.
2. He has no defense at all against bombers. You have a few good options here:
   1. On the Rebel side, YT-2400s and speed (so he can't engage your ships while you grind down the AFs) will work, as will Rieekan B-Wing swarms (with Yavaris, ideally).
   2. On the Imperial side, either a truckton of TIE Bombers or Firesprays will ruin his day. I see what you are running above... no. Try taking 8+ bombers or 4+ firesprays and his opinion of no squadrons will change rapidly.

Basically, the Ackbar list is weak to tough ships that can outposition it, and it's weak to bombers. It's strong vs. lots of anti-squadron and strong vs. Demolisher. The fact that you are taking both of those things plays right into its hands.

A few potential ways to go:

1. A list like pt106's regionals list will eat this thing for lunch. 2x Motti ISD is not going to go down fast enough for him to survive it. You jam the swirl (get in front, block his path), and focus down one target at a time; the manuevering to block this list will be key. XI7 + OE or IO + OE is the key on the 2 ISDs. Do not expose the raiders in a list like that against Ackbar until the ISDs have already struck. Against his list, you could even go with 3x Motti ISDs if you want to get real silly.
2. He has no defense at all against bombers. You have a few good options here:
   1. On the Rebel side, YT-2400s and speed (so he can't engage your ships while you grind down the AFs) will work, as will Rieekan B-Wing swarms (with Yavaris, ideally).
   2. On the Imperial side, either a truckton of TIE Bombers or Firesprays will ruin his day. I see what you are running above... no. Try taking 8+ bombers or 4+ firesprays and his opinion of no squadrons will change rapidly.

Basically, the Ackbar list is weak to tough ships that can outposition it, and it's weak to bombers. It's strong vs. lots of anti-squadron and strong vs. Demolisher. The fact that you are taking both of those things plays right into its hands.

I agree with most of this except the demolisher bit.

My nickname for demolisher is "MC80 hood Ornament" H1 MC80 is just so slow and so predictable that if it leads a standard conga line it isn't even hard to front-bump it. A well deployed demo with engine techs and Ozzel spamming nav commands can often outflank the broadsides and park in front of the MC80. If you run Montferrat on it like I usually do you can eat a broadside if you have to as well.