With new hard counters now in place to shut down Demolisher's alpha surge, has the importance of getting initiative and, thus, crippling your force by 15-30 points (or more) come to an end?

-Imperials have tools in spades now to shut down Demolisher and DeMSU clones; they don't even need to specifically build for it. An area control list will beat up a "I HAVE SMALL FRAGILE SHIPS MUST GO FIRST" build whether its Rebels or Imperials.

-Rebels have a little more nuanced time of it, but I think the combination of GR75, used either as physical blockers or slicers, plus new speed and efficiency of bombers via Toryn, Bomber Command, and Fighter Coordination team, is going to put a hurt on Demolisher.

I find myself building lists more for the full 400 pts with less emphasis built on going first. I'm also finding I'm not as interested in using a DeMSU or Pirannah type list and worrying about going first. However, that might be because I'm still trying out the new shiny toys.

Thoughts?

No.

Not when a certain large ship shoots you from 5-6 red dice at long w/ Intel Officer, flys around you but ends up turning into you, shoots for 8-9 Xi7 backed dice and can only use one defense token. To paraphrase a fellow player, there is a new Demolisher and it ain't Imperial.

And for the opposing faction with Experimental Retrofits/repair based projection fleets want a choice of first or second to play objectives with Grav Shift or see the match up to determine how to leverage their upgrades.

Two expensive ships without ECM Brace will always consider wanting to act first.

The issue for bids now is that you can buy an additional activation for 18 and 23 points respectively. You get similar utility out of just having an additional activation as you do for going first. The lists that want to go first are still bidding 15-16 points. That may change as people get a feel for bids in their area.

No. There aren't hard counters to Demolisher and the age of big bids isn't over. I do believe reduced a bit, but not over.

Targeting Scramblers does wonders against Demolisher - sometimes. It isn't a hard counter.

Slicer tools only messes with the command dial. A half-awake player will have the token to get engine techs. It also relies on going first against that Demolisher.

Slicer tools+q7s. Still banks on going first.

Torynn and BCC rely on going first against Demolisher to stop the triple tap. Also, even 3 BWings and Keyan are hard pressed to bring down Demolisher in an activation (around 9.25 damage average over 4 attacks).

No.

Fullstop

With the extra missions in the Corellian campaign pack we could see more of an advantage to going second. With more missions to choose from there may be more you can tailor a fleet towards any of the 3 colours.

For example a fleet of 3 VSD-Is + Interdictor is ideal for Contested Outpost. It is slow but doesn't need speed - just arrange a slugging match near the base and win. Put in some fighters and the odd tractor or G8 to prevent too much outflanking. The leaked red mission Station Assault plays very similar to contested outpost with the added advantage that the enemy have to allocate some firepower into the bases to score bonus points. Now if there is another blue mission that slow plodding fleets feel suited to [Edit: Salvage run isn't bad] then the urge to be first player is lessened.

I still prefer going first even when playing with a 399 point Rieekan fleet. It surprises me how many times the one point bid becomes relevant.

I don't think the buds are going to change until they change the initiative choice a bit or give the second player more control in what mission gets played. First player is still too good to pass up.

One of the keys to this game is learning how to play second. You can’t always hope to be the biggest bid. You need to learn to find how to use the advantages given to make your forces work.

Large bids (10 point +) seem to go away once that education happens it looks like.

Small sample size, but at the last tournament I played, I had a 400 point list. Two of my three opponents chose to go second.

A similar thing happened to me. I like going first so had to pretend to look a tiny bit disappointed in case they changed their mind.

I always build for full 400 points.

One of the keys to this game is learning how to play second. You can’t always hope to be the biggest bid. You need to learn to find how to use the advantages given to make your forces work.

Large bids (10 point +) seem to go away once that education happens it looks like.

This statement willfully ignores that some lists need to go first to work properly. if you don't think so you have never landed a demolisher in just the wrong place as second player and had it vaporized before you could get value out of it. Demo is a NINETY POINT glass cannon that needs to go first to not die when you pull the trigger.

If (as would be logical in my mind) it is permanently judged that G8s nullify Engine Techs, THAT is a hard counter to demo because now it becomes just that much harder to pull off a triple tap, Sometimes speed 3 is enough to get you a front arc but leaves you in an uncomfortable place.

Konstantine plus a control fleet will give any DMSU pause now. Even as first player you can leap out only to have engine techs nullified, be reduced to speed 2 in the status phase and then struggle to get the speed and mobility you need back as tractors and kon and G8s keep you pinned. I did this to a Demo to good effect recently, even with nav dial spam it was reduced to a maximum effective speed of 2 but it will STILL WANT to go first whenever possible because not everyone will bring a control build!

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

I think that big bids are going to stay, however the strategy of not doing a bid/doing a small bid will be more widespread as opposed to Wave 2. Huge bids (20+ points) however will be more rare.

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

uhh, not sure i agree with this

playing second where you have carefully chosen objectives that compliment your fleet will do wonders.

I made it to the top table in montreal (against the person who came in first at gencon) playing second with a mc80 christmas tree two trc90s and b wings. my objectives: contested outpost, advanced gunnery, and superior positions were all chosen specifically to compliment my list. I also made top 8 in the toronto regionals (norm was at that one too) which was far better than halfway up the standings.

In short i dont think its 2nd player that keeps you from winning at tournaments - its luck in matchups, and learning to mitigate disadvantages

EDITED for clarity

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

uhh, not sure i agree with this

playing second where you have carefully chosen objectives that compliment your fleet will do wonders.

I made it to the top table in montreal (against the person who came in first at gencon) playing second with a mc80 christmas tree two trc90s and b wings. my objectives: contested outpost, advanced gunnery, and superior positions were all chosen specifically to compliment my list. I also made top 8 in the toronto regionals (norm was at that one too) which was far better than halfway up the standings.

In short i dont think its 2nd player that keeps you from winning at tournaments - its luck in matchups, and learning to mitigate disadvantages

EDITED for clarity

In short - you didnt win.

And thats the key.

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

I did. Won two tourneys in a row back in KY. Maxed points both times, went second in both tourneys in all games. Granted, it was wave one still. Not sure how it would work in the current meta, but I normally don't care f I go first or second. I build fleets to handle both. In the end, regardless of fleet composition, it's really the quality of the Admiral that will determine the outcome.

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

What I'm saying is that you specifically claimed that the reason people do big bids to go first is that they simply don't understand how to play second. Which is a load of bull. Going first has some very powerful advantages and what you call unbalanced lists (which I call min/max lists) are designed from the ground up to synergize with those advantages.

In other words, its not that those people "haven't educated themselves" about going second, they build a list that wants to go first the same way a player who builds around objectives builds to go second.

The second bit about hard counters to Demo was more to the general subject of the thread. But in conclusion, even with these new counters DEMSU lists will still want to go first and be willing to pay dearly for the privilege. After all, if going second made life tough for demo and raiders BEFORE, going second now and meeting a control list is potential suicide.

And for the record it is possible to go second and win tournaments. I've done it twice. It's not easy and it does require some luck and good matchups but really, the same can be said for low-bid MSU lists.

The second bit about hard counters to Demo was more to the general subject of the thread. But in conclusion, even with these new counters DEMSU lists will still want to go first and be willing to pay dearly for the privilege. After all, if going second made life tough for demo and raiders BEFORE, going second now and meeting a control list is potential suicide.

This is the part I'm most curious about...with a lot more options now available to shut Demolisher down, even if you do go first, there's a much better chance you won't get the autowin that you did before.

So my question is, with that in mind (assuming it's true, and I think it is), will players be less apt to build for DeMSU lists? And I think the community collectively seems to have answered "no".

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

And according to the data, almost none at all using the new Wave 3 and 4 ships.

The same reasons apply I think. Perhaps you have data that proves me wrong?

Yes that is Snark.

Look, how about we define what Go Second and Win is? Just go second in the final game? Go second in all games in that Tourney? Go second in one game at the tourney?

I'm not seeing it.

I'm not even sure what your saying Hastatior.

Yes, people build some lists that need to go first. Unbalanced lists are not new. And then they run into a counter, they don't last. That truth isn't something new about armada. its been that way in every game sense HG Wells played Little Wars on his living room floor.

And Yes Konstantine counters them.

And I don't understand if you have a conclusion your arguing.

Very very few players win tournaments playing second, contrary to your previous comment in this thread.

And according to the data, almost none at all using the new Wave 3 and 4 ships.

The same reasons apply I think. Perhaps you have data that proves me wrong?

Yes that is Snark.

Look, how about we define what Go Second and Win is? Just go second in the final game? Go second in all games in that Tourney? Go second in one game at the tourney?

I'm not seeing it.

Yup. Vassal tournaments are being won by first player.

Dont be snarky when you are wrong, makes you look stupid.

I did. Won two tourneys in a row back in KY. Maxed points both times, went second in both tourneys in all games. Granted, it was wave one still. Not sure how it would work in the current meta, but I normally don't care f I go first or second. I build fleets to handle both. In the end, regardless of fleet composition, it's really the quality of the Admiral that will determine the outcome.

Ohh Gink, its like your new to the internets...

What was that about being wrong again?

I did. Won two tourneys in a row back in KY. Maxed points both times, went second in both tourneys in all games. Granted, it was wave one still. Not sure how it would work in the current meta, but I normally don't care f I go first or second. I build fleets to handle both. In the end, regardless of fleet composition, it's really the quality of the Admiral that will determine the outcome.

Ohh Gink, its like your new to the internets...

What was that about being wrong again?

1 anecdotal evidence of a guy winning store championships versus the might of regional and national tournament data.

What was that, you are still incapable of reasoned argument?

Be reasonable, and I will be, till then, stop being a fool