I know this is sort of a broad question, but it's only got a few parts that require hard analysis.

The x7 title is wonderful, providing incredibly reliable defense without the traditional cost of token stacking. Having faced 3 of them, I know that you can whittle away at 2, but the third is typically the deal breaker. Of note, the variant I faced was PTL ryad with 2 adaptability glaives.

Since then, I've picked up the same ryad, but paired with a juke x7 Vessery and the palp shuttle. I've had excellent results, without losing a game yet (though it should absolutely be noted that those games were against relative beginners- and no, I wasn't trying to pub stomp, it just happened to be the only list I had on me when I was asked to run a game. My opponents got full wins for the casual league I'm also running)

All that said, is the 3rd defender more efficient than the palp shuttle? Sure, the palp shuttle requires some effort to fly, but the flexibility provided by palp, and Ryad's insane late game ability have been enough to get the job done.

What do you think?

Palp offers some insurance but you will lose out on firepower and he is likely the first one to die. Which has been more important to you? Do you need more damage or survivability?

broad is right. "better" is meaningless without context

honestly, you'd need a mathematician cross referenced with your personal preference vise-a-vie shuttle flying in order to answer that question for yourself

in the specific case of PTL ryad and juke vess, I'd venture a "yes." The delta can be a great blocker, but let's face it palpatine is easy-mode compared to blocking and dice can go burn in plastic hell.

in the other case of just 3 x7 defenders, I'd be more inclined to run Vess and two Glaives with crackshots on

I wasn't looking for extreme data as far as math goes, just wondering if I could do without the crutch that palpatine is.

This is actually the first time I've squad built with palp in mind, because I haven't been a fan of the palp + 33 point modules set up that the empire is mainlining these days.

But oh man all the tokens and just outright dice fixing sure is fun to do.

I think you're better with the third defender. The hit points of a defender aren't nearly as precious as the hit points of, say, Soontir, so you get less value from each use of the emperor.

I wasn't looking for extreme data as far as math goes, just wondering if I could do without the crutch that palpatine is.

This is actually the first time I've squad built with palp in mind, because I haven't been a fan of the palp + 33 point modules set up that the empire is mainlining these days.

But oh man all the tokens and just outright dice fixing sure is fun to do.

idk about "fun" but losing to crap dice sure is the opposite of fun

so I guess it's fun by proxy

I've lost enough to defenders to know green dice can't be trusted even with six health and x7 title. Given the choice between the two, always palp

I personally don't palp. I run Deathfire homing conners extra LRS because everyone and their mother runs palp while years of 40k condition have taught me to loathe mirror matches. Gun to my head, though, palp every time (in the specific context of ptl ryad and juke vess)

Palpatine's great with arc dodgers because he helps them survive the rare times they get caught. TIE defenders are a bit less arc dodgey and have six health, so you'd probably be better served by a third defender: Palpatine's magic isn't as effective on ships that take more fire.

doesn't matter if it's less effective, palp is still palp (ie absolutely nuts crazy)

and a single delta is still a barely modified 3 red dice

OGP with Palpatine and FCS

31 point Inquisitor

Vessery with Juke, x7, Stealth Device

Palpatine is nuts. You can make arbitrary distinctions between arc dodgers and Defenders and say that Palp Aces only counts as Palp Aces if it has Aces in it and Defenders don't count as Aces and Palpatine is only good with Aces.

If a Defender is arc dodging less and getting shot more, then it needs Palpatine more. A Defender backed by Palpatine goes from difficult to put damage into but eventually will die to straight invincible.

You can also use Palpatine offensively.

There are other worthwhile Palp Aces Defender squads.

The PtL Ryad, Juke Vessery with Palp Shuttle squad.

Palp Shuttle, 2x Delta with x7, and Wampa is 99 points.

well, goomba, it's true Palp Aces only count as Palp Aces if it has Aces in it (or at least one ace, as established by Inq + Omega L + Wampa squads)

but who's to say Palp Jousters don't kick ass too ?

I think it depends on how you play. The Delta is tougher than the shuttle, and is probably doing more damage overall. It's a 3rd actual ship that can win a game as the last ship alive, or thread asteroids, or get more than 3 shots in a game. You can fly in formation with your other Defenders as a lead blocker, as well.

Does all of this make up for Palp manipulation? I don't know, it depends on how good you think you are with that Delta. It certainly gives you a different set of tools to use over a PalpShuttle, though.

9-1 in tourney games with

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v4!s!195:152,-1,-1:33:-1:;70:152,-1,-1:33:-1:;190:151,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1:35:17:u.183,u.95&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

only loss was a game where i had a total brain fart on like turn 5 or 6 and lost to a list i beat 100-0 a few days before

Palpatine is always the right choice.

I have flown the Dengaroo vs Palp / Juke Vessery / PtL Ryad matchup at least 5 times (having played both sides) and Palp Defenders has won every time.

Triple Defenders is WAY easier for Dengaroo to kill.

Well I suck at flying shuttles so I'd always go third defender, but of you're not like me and can fly the ivory porpoise then palpmobile probably is better.

Also welcome to club defender don't forget to pay me or fts the membership fees.

Palpatine is always the right choice.

I have flown the Dengaroo vs Palp / Juke Vessery / PtL Ryad natchup at least 5 times (having played both sides) and Palp Defenders has won every time.

Triple Defenders is WAY easier for Dengaroo to kill.

With my double APT Dengaroo list, my friend fired one off at a Stealth Device x7 Palpatine backed Vessery. Only did a single damage. With focus evade and Palpatine, an evade focus blank blank roll is 4 evade results. Any more than that and it's 5.

Palpatine is super broken, the idea that you run an Imperial list without him that isn't the Crackshot swarm is amusing to me.

I flew Juke Glaive, juke Vessery, 26 point Omega Leader against another triple Defender list and it was nice, but I ended up wishing I just had Palpatine.

Like I said, my first encounter with the x7 was that ryad/double glaive. It can be beaten, but you need a lot of consistent dice to do it.

My gamma squad vets got ryad and the one glaive, but once all the toys dried up I got knocked out.

I actually prefer getting the shuttle in the thick of the fight. It's done a good job of capitalizing on ships that spent all their tokens dodging the Vessery/ryad gauntlet, and can provide Vessery with a second option for free target locks.

Palp. Unless you hate flying a shuttle and just want to play 3 defenders.

Palp wouldnt really do much there because Defenders arent arcdodgers, they get shot up from all angles quite often but have the hp to endure it.

Same attack dice between defender/shuttle but the shuttle will fire maybe 3 times then be forever turning. The freedom of movement the 3x defenders supersedes the slight perk palp gives them.

Also welcome to club defender don't forget to pay me or fts the membership fees.

Palp may mathematically be better but I prefer the 3rd Defender. I find that x7s get less use out of Palp than the traditional aces he normally accompanies and the extra attack can be extremely important given that the shuttle is often easily isolated or avoided.

An x7 Defender is so hard to kill even without Palp. I've found that means the extra Defender is better for me than Palp. Not true for everyone, of course.

Palpatine is always the right choice.

I have flown the Dengaroo vs Palp / Juke Vessery / PtL Ryad matchup at least 5 times (having played both sides) and Palp Defenders has won every time.

Triple Defenders is WAY easier for Dengaroo to kill.

I faced a Ryad, Maarek, Palp list with Dengaroo and won. Granted, Manaroo had to finish off Ryad with Feedbacks and R5-P8. It was a pain in the ass to go through those defenses, my opponent also had pretty good green rerolls (generally getting the same results).

As a fan of Defenders though, I'd say that one was not flown to its potential, too much predictable k-turning, even from Ryad. And getting the shuttle in the middle of the board where I had the option of return-firing on it with Dengar while Manaroo plinked from the other side was not ideal either. Palp was the cherry on the sunday of having to whittle down two tough ships, which is why I got Manaroo in on it to kill him quicker.

It makes me really question if I'm bringing Dengar to a 60 pt tournament tonight. That's 2 x7 Deltas, or x7 Ryad and Omega, which I would HATE to face without Zuckuss.

Dengar outside dengaroo is an extraordinary ps 9 arcdodgee

Flown well, nothing will present much issue

You'll need your ability vs fatter pwts though

Palp Defenders need to fly patiently to win. Don't ever trigger Dengar's ability until after Manaroo is dead. This means not taking shots. The goal is to trade Palp and a couple shields on Defenders for Manaroo, then Dengar is trivial to clean up.

In my experience, people are all too happy to just try to joust Dengar and I can't figure out why. Only one person declined to shoot at him in arc (Omega leader, whose TL I'd wiped off). The same player took shots the other turns though, calling the dice mods "complete bull" while his rerolls were going his way, not mine. Then again, he complained when he got statistically average rolls, so ...

There's this belief that "not shooting Dengar while in arc" is playing the other player's game. I'd say unless you can hurt him a lot more than he'll hurt you, skip it!

Palpatine is always the right choice.

I have flown the Dengaroo vs Palp / Juke Vessery / PtL Ryad matchup at least 5 times (having played both sides) and Palp Defenders has won every time.

Triple Defenders is WAY easier for Dengaroo to kill.

I faced a Ryad, Maarek, Palp list with Dengaroo and won. Granted, Manaroo had to finish off Ryad with Feedbacks and R5-P8. It was a pain in the ass to go through those defenses, my opponent also had pretty good green rerolls (generally getting the same results).

As a fan of Defenders though, I'd say that one was not flown to its potential, too much predictable k-turning, even from Ryad. And getting the shuttle in the middle of the board where I had the option of return-firing on it with Dengar while Manaroo plinked from the other side was not ideal either. Palp was the cherry on the sunday of having to whittle down two tough ships, which is why I got Manaroo in on it to kill him quicker.

It makes me really question if I'm bringing Dengar to a 60 pt tournament tonight. That's 2 x7 Deltas, or x7 Ryad and Omega, which I would HATE to face without Zuckuss.

You can also fit ryad WITH a delta

(60)

Countess Ryad (32) - TIE Defender

Adaptability (0), TIE/x7 (-2)

Delta Squadron Pilot (28) - TIE Defender

TIE/x7 (-2)