Can you cleave with reach a target that you had no LoS when declaring an attack (because it was behind the first target) but by killing a figure with the main attack you now have a LoS ?

The problem I have is :

- during the attack, when is the main figure killed and removed ? After Step 7 ? After Cleave ?

- when is cleave happening ? (RRG says "if the target of this figure's attack suffers one or more damage", so I guess it's after Step 7)

- when is the validity of the cleave's target checked ?

Thank you !

A figure is defeated (see defeated: removed from the map) when it has suffered damage upto its Health, i.e. the target is defeated during step 7, calculate damage.

Blast, Cleave and Conditions are performed/applied after the attack resolves if the target suffered damage.

You choose the target of cleave when you perform Cleave, i.e. after the attack resolves. If the target was defeated, it is no longer there to block line of sight. Also, each Cleave ability is performed separately.

Ok for choosing the target of the Cleave.

But for the timing between Defeated / Cleave isn't obvious for me or the players with me.

In the Steps of an Attack section, 7- is calculate damage but there's nothing about removing a figure in that step. So it can be after Step 7. But Cleave is also after Step 7.

Defeated is triggered by adding damage tokens, but Cleave is also triggered by adding damage tokens.

Is there a word from the officials about that particular point ? Because as it is, it's confusing or can be read in both ways

Cleave, Blast, Focus and any other similar keyword is applied AFTER the attack. In other words, every step of the attack has been completed, then you apply it. Defeat occurs when damage is equal to health, and damage is applied in the last step of the attack, so the defeat still occurs during the Attack.

See the example in another topic on Verena... She might do an attack that has cleave, cause the figure to be defeated, chain a couple attack using her ability that contain movements, be in a completely different position from where she started, and only then, once the entire chain has ended, does the original attack officially end (because her ability is triggered on defeat, which happens before the end of the attack) and then only applies cleave based on her new location...

See defeated from RRG. It tells to remove the figure. It happens during step 7 of the attack.

Cleave happens after the attack resolves, which is after step 7 of the attack.

See the reference cards, it's in there if not in the rulebook.

Blast, Cleave and Conditions are performed/applied after the attack resolves. (Also confirmed by FFG if you don't trust the material that came with the game.)

So lets say a player's character with Cleave as a surge ability would trigger it while not having a LOS, then the figure dies and the player can now pick his target for the Cleave as LOS was freed up?

See defeated from RRG. It tells to remove the figure. It happens during step 7 of the attack.

Ok I think I found some solid rule.

Attack

Steps of an attack

7- " and the target suffers all remaining damage "

Damage

" When a figure has suffered damage equal to or exceeding its Health, it is defeated "

Defeated

" When any other figure is defeated , it is removed from the map "

Step 7 = suffer damage = defeated = removed

I didn't think you were wrong but I needed solid point for the other players in my game. Each time there's something tricky like this, I need to tell them how it works and point them to the rules. So many arguments about rules...

So lets say a player's character with Cleave as a surge ability would trigger it while not having a LOS, then the figure dies and the player can now pick his target for the Cleave as LOS was freed up?

Yes.

Also, you can trigger any surge ability even if it would not do anything during/after the attack.

Looks like you can definitely cleave something that you create LoS for if the original target is defeated. Also, we can see on the card for that amazing Rancor figure that it has Reach, Massive, and Cleave 2. It doesn't even have to defeat the adjacent figure to cleave on the fellow behind the target! In fact, with Brutality, he can do it twice! *Drool*

Right, what you're saying is that figures do not block line of sight from or to Massive figures.

Damage

" When a figure has suffered damage equal to or exceeding its Health, it is defeated "

A small fix. A figure can never suffer damage exceeding its Health. Any excess damage is ignored.