No Idea what to actually call this; I've got no clever names for it.

The concept is to have the MC80 Liberty type and the MC30 benefit from the added agility from Madine.

I've got Two fleet ideas and no idea which one to stick with. (For anyone who saw the Wave 4: Dealing with the MSU post, the second is based off of the suggestions from the responses).

Fleet 1:

Madine 1
Author: Arcanis161

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 389/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- Mon Karren ( 8 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 143 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Lando Callriassian ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 121 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 67 total ship cost

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points)

Fleet 2:

Madine 2
Author: Arcanis161

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 388/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- Mon Karren ( 8 points)
- Lando Callriassian ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 132 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
= 81 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 67 total ship cost

[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Jamming Field ( 2 points)
= 50 total ship cost

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points)

Mon Karren and either X17 or Heavy Turbolasers is kind of redundant. I would drop X17 for something else in that slot like a Spinal.

I'm also a bit iffy on Most wanted with your fleet. Only 3 ships get a benefit and you don't have a good target ship. Though I guess you can choose Madone's ship and play keep away.

There is strength in redundancy in this particualr case. X17 and Mon Karren combined means that, if I acc a brace, the opponent can only redirect one point away from the facing that was hit. Thus, more damage could, potentially, go straight to the hull instead of being absorbed by more shields.

And yes, the GR75 playing keep away was the exact reason why I chose Most Wanted.

"Strength in redundancy" but also inefficiency and the law of diminishing returns.

I would move Intel officer onto Salvation and drop XI7 for APTs or ACMs on Admonition.

"Strength in redundancy" but also inefficiency and the law of diminishing returns.

I would move Intel officer onto Salvation and drop XI7 for APTs or ACMs on Admonition.

In all actuality, the Liberty build I have was inspired from this blog post: http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html

I have (self) tested both lists thus far, and while the second list seems to have better staying power and activations, the "redundancy" seems to better allow the Mon Karren to deliver knockout blows.

However, your comment on diminishing returns makes me curious. I'll try your suggestion (minus adding Intel Officer in the second list, I prefer a high initiative bid in this meta) and see how much of a difference there is.

Test 1 versus a DeMSU was a close match but ended in a loss for the Rebels. Mon Karren never got a chance to shoot well against the Demo due to Demo's maneuvering and a Disengaged Fire Control crit, but what little shooting the Mon Karren did do made me wish it had Intel Officer again.

Will come back later with a test against a Rhymerball with a ISDII.

"Strength in redundancy" but also inefficiency and the law of diminishing returns.

I would move Intel officer onto Salvation and drop XI7 for APTs or ACMs on Admonition.

In all actuality, the Liberty build I have was inspired from this blog post: http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html

I have (self) tested both lists thus far, and while the second list seems to have better staying power and activations, the "redundancy" seems to better allow the Mon Karren to deliver knockout blows.

However, your comment on diminishing returns makes me curious. I'll try your suggestion (minus adding Intel Officer in the second list, I prefer a high initiative bid in this meta) and see how much of a difference there is.

If you are going to run Intel Officer, Leading Shots, and XI7 together...then just drop the Mon Karren title card. Those 8pts can be used elsewhere like APT on Admon. If you want Intel on the Neb, then I would change the XI7 to HTT on the Liberty. Also, since you have the Admon title card, you could drop advanced projectors since XI7 is a popular upgrade card and it would make the upgrade useless. That's 6pts more you can use somewhere else or use to increase your bid. One final point...Engine Techs on a Madine Liberty makes for a very nasty bendable ship...

I feel like the benefit from the redundancy isn't really worth the eight points you're paying for it. It does nothing against Raiders, Neb-Bs or flotillas (the combination, I mean, Mon Karren is pretty solid against Raiders and Nebs). Against anything else, you will only gain any benefit if you roll zero Accuracies, and even then you only prevent your opponent from redirecting one damage and doing something else. With Mon Karren, a CR90 will Evade. Without the title, a CR90 will Evade and then Redirect one point of damage. With a single Accuracy, you lock out the Redirect, and with or without the title the end result is the same. Against an ISD/VSD/MC80/Liberty/Interdictor, with the title they Brace. Without they Brace and Redirect a single point of damage. With a single Accuracy, you lock the Brace and your opponent can only Redirect one point of damage (or against the Liberty, you lock the Redirect and they Brace). In all of these situations, you're paying eight points of damage to prevent your opponent from shifting a single point of damage.

Now against a Glad or an Assault Frigate beyond Close range, you do get a bump even with an Accuracy. And after playing three games today where a lot of situations were decided by one or two hull points, it can make a huge difference. But I feel like there are better investments of 8 points.

I feel like the benefit from the redundancy isn't really worth the eight points you're paying for it. It does nothing against Raiders, Neb-Bs or flotillas (the combination, I mean, Mon Karren is pretty solid against Raiders and Nebs). Against anything else, you will only gain any benefit if you roll zero Accuracies, and even then you only prevent your opponent from redirecting one damage and doing something else. With Mon Karren, a CR90 will Evade. Without the title, a CR90 will Evade and then Redirect one point of damage. With a single Accuracy, you lock out the Redirect, and with or without the title the end result is the same. Against an ISD/VSD/MC80/Liberty/Interdictor, with the title they Brace. Without they Brace and Redirect a single point of damage. With a single Accuracy, you lock the Brace and your opponent can only Redirect one point of damage (or against the Liberty, you lock the Redirect and they Brace). In all of these situations, you're paying eight points of damage to prevent your opponent from shifting a single point of damage.

Now against a Glad or an Assault Frigate beyond Close range, you do get a bump even with an Accuracy. And after playing three games today where a lot of situations were decided by one or two hull points, it can make a huge difference. But I feel like there are better investments of 8 points.

Ok, so I ran some numbers with the various upgrade combos (4, 5, 6 damage with and without accuracies) and this is what I found:

GR75/Gozanti: Intel Officer takes the cake here without accuracies, but otherwise all upgrades are useless here.

CR90: As you stated, Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer is most effective in dealing more damage to the hull with rolls with no accuracies. Otherwise, with a natural accuracy roll, the upgrades have no effect. (However, 7 damage (above average) with no accuracies means a dead CR90).

Neb-B: More damage goes through with Mon Karren, Intel Officer has an easier time removing defense tokens with an accuracy, X17 is less than useless.

MC30: Mon Karren + X17 is the clear winner with or without accuracies or Intel Officer. However, Admonition would ensure that no damage would go to the hull at the cost of defense tokens. While this might make it seem like the Mon Karren + X17 is useless versus Admonition, the Admonition would still be discarding defense tokens to prevent hull damage. So, for this case, the X17 is 6 points invested for opening up for (possible, if I’m not dying or about to die) future attacks by either the Mon Karren or another ship. (This goes out the window if Lando is involved).

AFMKII: This is where you said that the Mon Karren becomes an 8 point investment for 1 point of damage, and I see it. Here, I am no longer concerned about the X17 and Intel Officer becoming redundant to the Mon Karren, but rather the Mon Karren becoming redundant to X17 and Intel Officer, the latter of which comes out on top as a threat to the ‘best’ defense token used. X17, on the other hand, becomes more of a set up for future attacks by other ships, assuming there are other ships unactivated that will reach the AFMKII’s front arc.

MC80 Liberty: Yeah, can't really do much without locking down both Braces and figuring out a way to flank.

MC80 Home One: Here yet again the Mon Karren title appears redundant to X17 and Intel Officer, and here each of those only work with or without a single Accuracy respectively (Granted an additional accuracy would make both work).

Raider: Mon Karren is only useful for large damage without an accuracy, X17 is useless, and Intel Officer can only discard the brace if an accuracy isn’t used. Raiders be fragile.

GSD: Here it seems Mon Karren is 8 points for 1 damage and X17 is 6 points for 1 damage. Now, does this open the GSD/Demo up for a lot more punishment (perhaps a strike from the Salvation?), yes. But again, that follow up, or a plan for a future follow up has to be there.

VSD: Intel Officer just doesn’t work well with redundant tokens without an extra accuracy. X17 does ok here, but Mon Karren again is 8 points for 1 damage if that.

Interdictor: Mon Karren doesn’t seem to do anything beyond maybe letting a crit through if one is rolled. I don’t know about you, but crits are more medium value to me, not sure I’d spend 8 points for one.

ISD: Exactly the same as with the Home One, Mon Karren useless and redundant.

However, as I came to these conclusions I realized, I was only comparing results against fresh, undamaged ships. I change the shields to slightly damaged (IE: Targeted facing having 0-1 points of damage) and my combo shined.

Thus, I have come to this conclusion: my combo is not good at killing ships. My combo is good at killing ships faster, IE: dealing more damage to fresh ships, removing their tokens, and really hurting or killing lightly hit ships when compared to removing some/all of Mon Karren, X17, and Intel Officer. What I am concerned about is whether my combo can kill ships fast enough. This will require a lot more testing, especially against stuff that it might be weak against.

What I am also curious about is whether the QTT and H9 combo will do the same result faster.

Nice breakdown! And I found from my three tourney games yesterday that a slightly upgraded Liberty needs a buddy to kill ships, and even then they won't do it too quickly. I had a pair of MC80 Star Cruisers with Gunnery Teams and Leading Shots going up against SDs and Interdictors (and a TRC90 swarm one game). They were very good at killing the smaller ships, especially at Medium to Close range. But it took a lot of focused fire to bring down the bigger Imperial ships.

I'm toying with the idea of a list with Home One and two QTT/GT AFs for the guaranteed double Accuracy.