I'll preface this by saying I don't like how clearly* they've lined out how arrows are addressed in the game, and that I've had a few players express interest in an archer-type character. Thus, a discussion on bows and arrows.

So arrows are a bit of an odd thing. Their encumbrance is listed as 0, which kind of implies arrows are made of air and float in a pocket dimension. That school of thought implies Star Wars uses the same arrows that Hyrule does.

Anyway, obviously common sense is the answer here, but there are a lot of different ways common sense can be applied. I'm interested in knowing your the best various methods that this can be addressed, i.e. how would you design stats for a quiver. I know some here have or do take archery, so some input would be appreciated.

And another thing, how have you addressed bows and limited ammo? Do you require a maneuver to reload, or another method?

*Clear as mud.

See page 152 of Edge of the Empire CRB, fourth paragraph under "Encumbrance Values." They are not, in fact, made of air And yes, common sense should indeed prevail. The rules encourage this.

See page 152 of Edge of the Empire CRB, fourth paragraph under "Encumbrance Values." They are not, in fact, made of air And yes, common sense should indeed prevail. The rules encourage this.

So that's fair. Still curious about the other parts of my question.

I do not remember, does Savage Spirits have rules for a quiver? if not, one option would be to house rule one up.

It would hold X arrows without affecting overall encumbrance and allows a user to draw one arrow (once per round) as an incidental.

Without it, I would say 5 arrows = 1 encumbrance and a maneuver to draw an arrow. Quickdraw could negate that, obviously.

The second option would be to hand-wave, but that doesn't sound like the answer you were shooting for.

As to the effect of Limited Ammo, yes, absolutely you should require a maneuver to ready an arrow. That said, in the first round where you draw your bow, I would allow one maneuver to fully ready the bow though (as in, draw the bow and nock an arrow). I think this is supported by the rules: one maneuver to ready your weapon. But in any case, the Quick Draw talent is invaluable for an archer.

The rules regarding encumbrance are sound enough, IMO. 10 loosely carried arrows = 1 encumbrance point, or up to 20 in a quiver = 1 encumbrance point.

The "stats" for a quiver could just be a re-flavored existing piece of equipment. Just whatever makes sense for your character's loadout. No extra rules required. For example:

• Utility Belt: spend 25 credits, and now the benefit is that you have something to carry your arrows in (plus the normal benefit of an extra point of encumbrance with which to carry things).
• Weapon Sling attachment: spend 100 credits and reskin the sling as a bow-mounted quiver. Then do the Quick Draw modification on it!

It's a Maneuver to load.

Encumbrance isn't something I'd get into since in general it's not meant to be as a routine. I'd agree on an approriate # of arrows with a PC and they'd just have that available in a quiver. More could be in a backpack but not readily accessible.

Until we are talking the overland trek thru space jungle planet where food, water, gear, and weapons all need to be considered I wouldn't bother with encumbrance #s just like I don't for other gear. Unless a PC tries to be cute I see no reason to bother with the bookkeeping.

I prefer precision and a little bookkeeping over the alternative of confusion.

The bookkeeping is confusion. The common sense of someone using appriate gear to distribute weight over their body and carry a reasonable amount is simplicity. Doing math for the sake of math to add up numbers that wouldn't really matter is pointless arithmetic. Which is also why the Encumbrance rules suggest in general don't bother.

I disagree.

Then you disagree with RAW.

I am not disagreeing with RAW if RAW leaves it up to GMs and groups to determine how and when and why they track things.

It all depends on whether your group is reasonable or not. Most of my players aren't big pack rats, so it isn't a problem. I have 1 that is a pack rat, but that is offset by his OCD tendency to weigh and locate everything he owns. To the point where in a D&D game, he mapped his wagon, and had a visual aid of exactly where he stored everything. He can tell me what's in his backpack, versus utility belt. It was a bit overkill when someone reached under the seat, and he could list exactly what was there.But if he wants to spend his time doing it, more power to him.

It all depends on whether your group is reasonable or not. Most of my players aren't big pack rats, so it isn't a problem. I have 1 that is a pack rat, but that is offset by his OCD tendency to weigh and locate everything he owns. To the point where in a D&D game, he mapped his wagon, and had a visual aid of exactly where he stored everything. He can tell me what's in his backpack, versus utility belt. It was a bit overkill when someone reached under the seat, and he could list exactly what was there.But if he wants to spend his time doing it, more power to him.

heh. That sounds like a good player to offload some GM workload to if you ever needed to.

I like the 5 loose arrows is 1 enc, 20 in a quiver (utility belt) is 1 enc.

Definitely 1 maneuver to draw and notch an arrow, otherwise the limited ammo quality is meaningless, Quick Draw is awesome.

So, to start this off, I need to preface a few things. I don't make the players in my games count shots, jor do I make them count meals. I assume they had, found, or were given what they need to survive, and weapons only run out of ammo on a handful of threat or a despair, at which point they spend an ammo reload or ration to counter any negative side effect.

When the first bow hit this game, the Corellian if I am not mistaken, I saw limited ammo on it and said, "Fine enough. A maneuver to reload -- that is, it takes a maneuver to get an arrow from a reasonably on hand location, knock and draw it."

That's as in depth as I think it needs to be. No one wants to count their shots. The game is designed to feel cinematic and fast, and Hawkeye only ran out of arrows when it was cinematic, exciting, and fun.

Edit: Special ammunition, grenades, and missiles. Yes, I count those as those are for, "Well, we've got one shot at this," moments.

Very good point CC, don't count normal arrows, only specialist ones.

I hunt with a bow, do some recreational archery, and have some knowledge about historical (English longbow and First Nations) archery.

Modern bows will often have a rigid quiver installed on the bow to facilitate selecting an arrow with a minimum of movement. Arrows are usually carried point up for easy identification. Most quivers of this type hold 6-8 arrows.

Many traditional or "primitive" cultures carried a wide variety of quivers made from natural materials. Arrows are usually carried point down, with different types identified by differently-colored nocks or fletching. Hunting quivers are almost always smaller than something designed for war. A typical hunting quiver will carry a dozen arrows, or less, because you'll rarely ever need that many for a hunting trip. An English longbowman, arguably one of the premier archers on this planet, carried two dozen arrows in a sheaf with many more bundles of sheaves to hand when preparing for a battle.

Quivers are designed to carry arrows in a fashion that makes them easy to draw and nock, while protecting the arrows and their points from damage, protecting the user from those points, and to greater or lesser degree protecting the fletching - usually the most delicate part of an arrow.

Does this help?

I'd say that a quiver is Encumbrance 1, and the arrows themselves don't add encumbrance because the quiver is keeping them tidy and out of the way for you. 1 maneuver to draw an arrow seems fair, as is allowing Quick Draw to avoid needing the maneuver.

I'd say that a quiver is Encumbrance 1, and the arrows themselves don't add encumbrance because the quiver is keeping them tidy and out of the way for you.

I failed to mention something earlier: Quick Draw *is* nice, but remember when using it that it's only a once-per-turn ability. An archer feels that limitation more than most

For those who eschew meals for characters, does everyone just get the Forager talent for free? I ask, because as a player, I may feel slighted in my possible choice to spend very valuable XP was not considered. It'd be like a GM never having a melee combatant NPC/encounter when your party includes a character with lots of ranks in Parry. How much hand-waiving undercuts XP expenditures?

For those who eschew meals for characters, does everyone just get the Forager talent for free? I ask, because as a player, I may feel slighted in my possible choice to spend very valuable XP was not considered. It'd be like a GM never having a melee combatant NPC/encounter when your party includes a character with lots of ranks in Parry. How much hand-waiving undercuts XP expenditures?

I'd say this depends on the game. If the game is forever set in a city, and the party is never completely broke, I can see the argument for don't count meals. But you are right, if you play a wilderness trek, you need to track food, then the survivalists become essential.

For those who eschew meals for characters, does everyone just get the Forager talent for free? I ask, because as a player, I may feel slighted in my possible choice to spend very valuable XP was not considered. It'd be like a GM never having a melee combatant NPC/encounter when your party includes a character with lots of ranks in Parry. How much hand-waiving undercuts XP expenditures?

Honestly, I didn't want my post to be too long.

Each game day, I ask for a survival roll, modified as necessary by the elements, danger, and speed with which the person making the check is going to go. Success means they found just enough to fill their bellies with food and water. Failure means they didn't. Pepper in advantages and threats to taste.

Making them make that roll every game day means those talents are used routinely and get lots of love.

If they fail, talent or not, they either burn a ration or pay some credits (depending on location) to ensure they've eaten.

A good GM tailors the game to his players. If someone is a pilot then he'll have some kind of space combat or at least throw in some rough flying at some point for the pilot to get through. If the group has a survivalist, they'll go out in the wilderness at some point. And so on. If a player is investing points into certain skills/talents, then that should be a clue to you as to what the player wants the character to do and what kind of game they want. You should acknowledge that in your adventures and challenges.

Don't make your players account for every bathroom break their characters need to take ("You should have gone at the last moon, now you have to roll a setback die because you're holding it!") but if a player has an ability to scavenge for survival, well then have your group scavenge to survive once in awhile. Not every campaign is going to be run the same, and they shouldn't be.

A good GM tailors the game to his players. If someone is a pilot then he'll have some kind of space combat or at least throw in some rough flying at some point for the pilot to get through. If the group has a survivalist, they'll go out in the wilderness at some point. And so on. If a player is investing points into certain skills/talents, then that should be a clue to you as to what the player wants the character to do and what kind of game they want. You should acknowledge that in your adventures and challenges.

Don't make your players account for every bathroom break their characters need to take ("You should have gone at the last moon, now you have to roll a setback die because you're holding it!") but if a player has an ability to scavenge for survival, well then have your group scavenge to survive once in awhile. Not every campaign is going to be run the same, and they shouldn't be.

Actually new studies have found people make better snap decisions when they have to pee, so that should be a boost die.

Not going to comment about any other bathroom breaks.