I took most of a day off the X-wing forums and happened to miss this article and this whole thread. I got a few messages from friends that talked about how this thread was really depressing and how people's attitudes on the forums was so negative. I was a bit wary about reading it.

Well, I did read it and I was actually pretty happy with most everyone's response. There were a lot more positive people responding and many new or very casual players who posted their experiences, as well. There were some negative people, but I'm pretty surprised there weren't more. I thought most people in this thread totally validate the article and it made me really happy.

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

You know, I totally understand where you are coming from. I almost dropped out of the game as I got so tired of the competitive X-wing scene. I have to say, though, that I've since totally dropped out of it and I am having much more fun than I ever was. I find if you aren't buying into the competitive scene, the entire game opens up. I would recommend trying a different approach to the game.

If you want to play competitive, then I suggest trying some oddball list that isn't a meta list. I did it with 4 Tie Bombers back before all the fixes. I practiced the hell out of the list and got pretty good with it. I chatted with Biophysical back when he first started doing his dual Defenders list (before the fix) and he did amazingly well. I've chatted with people who tried the Xizor and Z-95 list. I almost made it into the Top 16 at my regionals with that list, but my dice just failed on that last game. I think if you try something odd and really practice at it, it can be competitive. I think that many competitive players really get trapped in their thinking that all the "good" combos are already tried, but all I really see are competitive players taking the same lists over and over again. This held me onto the competitive scene for a while as taking something that people scoffed at and then winning with it was very satisfying. Well...it held me over for at least another year. I'd recommend something like that if you want to stick with competitive play.

I'd also wish they'd realise that the hyper competitive X-Wing crowd are not the majority of the player base. Most people play this game for fun, be it at home or their FLGS.

Yes...I wish people would recognize this fact. It's not what people so, though. They go to their competitive game night and they see the number of people getting into the game growing. They go to the tournaments and see the tournaments growing. Yes....the competitive scene is growing and the game overall is growing, but I think most people who buy into the game are not tournament types. It's a bit of a closed loop when you go to the big events and everyone you see is all the same....at the competitive events. There is a silent majority out there of people who don't play that way and will probably never come to these forums. I don't think most tournament players or people on these forums agree with the idea that there are more than just a few basement trolls who play non-tournament X-wing.

Im pretty sure my experience with this game is exactly what FFG hopes, and predicts would happen.

I was always curious about this game but after watching a game from the webshow tabletop i was sold. I got the core and the falcon/firespray just like in the show. Since it seemed the most well rounded. Big ships and small, and could perfectly set you up at the 100 point mark. This was around wave 3... maybe 4.

Well I sat on it for a while before i could actually play but when i finally did it was a blast. Totally casual, no intentions of anything more than that. This of course, got the friend/friends i played with into the game and purchased their own core sets. A 20 dollar buy for the F/O set was just too good to pass up. Next thing I know they also buy a few extra ships to accommodate a full 100 point team for their own tastes. One friend wanted scum ships because he liked that theme. The other friend went imperial aces with interceptors and the phantom because he thought those were cool. And all of our games were a blast. The differences in squads we could make just among the 4-5 ships we each owned was perfect for the casual style we were playing.

Flash forward a year later and we all have practically at least 1 of every ship, and tournament worthy sets we can run. All from starting casually. Does this article apply to us now? No. Did it apply to us 1-2 years ago? Absolutely.

after thinking about it, I have to ask

what do people define as "competitive"?

because I like to think of the local NYC scene as incredibly competitive. We got a roaming troupe of regional winners, plenty of top-tier meta netdecking (and anti-meta decking), and even our sorta-casual leagues (with once-per league restrictions on ship compositions, so only one triple jump list all league, and on unique upgrades) get worked around, mostly by me (double torp scouts in every list, baby! just gotta change one ship around)

-truth be told, don't know if the exploitation of league restrictions is more about competition or because NYC is the capital of litigation; everyone's a lawyer down here-

but I don't travel for regionals or nationals because the last thing I need is to waste an entire day for one bout of bad dice to deny me a chance to place. All my competition is local (and NYC doesn't have the real estate to house regionals, apparently) and Store Championship is the highest level. Those get pretty cutthroat, though, and I've only won with complete anti-meta lists (latest round of store champ victors were...palp aces, palp aces, palp aces, Fickle's super-awesome-anti-palp-aces-featuring-Deathrain, and Crackswarm)

so...idk?

the forums, like almost everywhere on the internet, do love to exaggerate about everything especially the competitive merit of certain ships, and while I don't think anyone stands a snowball's chance in hell with a scyk list the local scene is pretty diverse ito ship composition. We get a lot of empire (Empire City), but also a good mix of everything, even some X-wings!

over here, as long as you extend a helping hand towards new players (and help em steer clear of certain duds), it seems they'll grow into their own just fine. the NYC scene is pretty large and still growing

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

Was is the tournament meta now? You mean before Wave 9 or right afterwards?

The term competitive is just as 'problematic' as the term 'casual'. I haven't met a definition of either that I fully agree with.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I think there is no word for the actual issue, but IMHO the notion is:

"I'm not having fun if I don't win nearly every time."

I have seen any number of posts indicating that if you lose, you did not have fun. Complete malarkey--I rarely win, and I love this game.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

And you can compete and want to win and play well and show up with whatever you have because you want to see if you can fly it and have a good time and not need all the toys and the best meta lists.

Then there have to be tournaments.

And that's where it all gets sideways (depending on the crowd you're in.) You've paid entry and there are prizes to win and the desire to compete and win and do well starts down the path to the dark side.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I think there is no word for the actual issue, but IMHO the notion is:

"I'm not having fun if I don't win nearly every time."

I have seen any number of posts indicating that if you lose, you did not have fun. Complete malarkey--I rarely win, and I love this game.

I've also won and not had fun. I've gone to tournaments and played the exact same list in back to back games. Oh, I beat both of them, but.....it was boring. Big tournaments can be playing against the same 3 types of lists all day long with little variety. That gets old. I found myself just not wanting to bother with tournaments as I'm tired of seeing the same crap that I spent 2 months practicing against every week. The game gets stale after a while....until a new wave comes out. It's great for a month, until you see the same 3 netlists again and again and again....

So, I don't think it's just about "I lost and I'm not having fun".

I have also seen people lose a lot and not find it fun. I still think it's different, though. I've known a number of guys that play multiple game systems and like X-wing, but they don't want to get all into it. They don't keep up with the latest cards and the latest combos. They just like to pull out some X-wings and play a game. They have a great time...until they play against a tournament player with a tournament list. They get crushed and don't enjoy it. There are a lot of people who will say that they either need to learn to get better at the game or maybe the game isn't for them. I totally disagree with that idea as they have a great time...as long as they don't play against a tournament list.

That's a good point about things getting stale. This is a big issue with playing constructed Magic with tournaments. You see the same stuff over and over and over and have to build around because otherwise you just get crushed no matter your luck and no matter your play. That is the "unfun" part of it.

Yeah games where you win but don't enjoy it is not limited to tournament play, I've won on the second turn before and felt genuinely bad because the other guy never really got to play.

Also been on the other end of the stick, but we can always replay something not possible in a tournament.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

And you can compete and want to win and play well and show up with whatever you have because you want to see if you can fly it and have a good time and not need all the toys and the best meta lists.

Then there have to be tournaments.

And that's where it all gets sideways (depending on the crowd you're in.) You've paid entry and there are prizes to win and the desire to compete and win and do well starts down the path to the dark side.

Trust me on this.The point of no competition is to win. In any good competition there needs to be more people who lose than people who win. Sure, you aim to win, but the point has to be the way itself else. The whole thing is pointless for all but one guy if it would be just about winning.

There certainly are games with the goal to make everyone a winner, and those are exactly not competitive games. Though even in those games the point is rarely to win all the time, but doing something cooperative with other people. I guess there is nothing more boring than winning all the time.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

And you can compete and want to win and play well and show up with whatever you have because you want to see if you can fly it and have a good time and not need all the toys and the best meta lists.

Then there have to be tournaments.

And that's where it all gets sideways (depending on the crowd you're in.) You've paid entry and there are prizes to win and the desire to compete and win and do well starts down the path to the dark side.

Trust me on this.The point of no competition is to win. In any good competition there needs to be more people who lose than people who win. Sure, you aim to win, but the point has to way itself else the whole thing is pointless for all but one guy.

There certainly are games with the goal to make everyone a winner, and those are exactly not competitive games. Though even in those games the point is rarely to win all the time, but doing something cooperative with other people. I guess there is nothing more boring than winning all the time.

Riddle me this: why is winning fun?

Also, what makes X-wing fun?

Riddle me this: why is winning fun?

Also, what makes X-wing fun?

Simple: Overcoming challenge does induce your brain with agreeable drugs. ;-)

Riddle me this: why is winning fun?

Also, what makes X-wing fun?

Simple: Overcoming challenge does induce your brain with agreeable drugs. ;-)

Sure, but I think the fun you can get from winning and playing x-wing can be a more complex formula.

What sounds more fun to you: winning with a list that you saw flown at Gencon, or winning with a list you've created from scratch?

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

And you can compete and want to win and play well and show up with whatever you have because you want to see if you can fly it and have a good time and not need all the toys and the best meta lists.

Then there have to be tournaments.

And that's where it all gets sideways (depending on the crowd you're in.) You've paid entry and there are prizes to win and the desire to compete and win and do well starts down the path to the dark side.

Trust me on this.The point of no competition is to win. In any good competition there needs to be more people who lose than people who win. Sure, you aim to win, but the point has to be the way itself else. The whole thing is pointless for all but one guy if it would be just about winning.

There certainly are games with the goal to make everyone a winner, and those are exactly not competitive games. Though even in those games the point is rarely to win all the time, but doing something cooperative with other people. I guess there is nothing more boring than winning all the time.

Point taken. Maybe that should be refined to "have a chance to win and not lose because you did something dumb." But I never get the guys who don't see the point in playing if there isn't something on the line. The "game not worth the candle" guys. The guys who always end up pushing for tournaments.

“When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.”

― Reiner Knizia

I really like this quote. It ties right into what Heychadwick is saying about being competitive. Both players need to try to win for the game to work and be fun.

However, that doesn't mean you take your A-list to every game. If somebody is new, you can still put out some wave 1 stuff opposed to their wave 1 stuff and try to win the game. I think we all have at least some sense for what a fair match is. You don't have to try to beat a new player in the list-building stage. If they ask you to bring out your best list so they can see what it's like, sure. But if a person still doesn't have a grasp on maneuvering, then bringing TIE Phantoms out is almost guaranteeing a negative play experience. As I said before, challenge new players where they are at.

I hate the term "competitive"....because I'm competitive no matter what game I'm playing. I'll try to win that Chutes and Ladders game. It's the same for Epic and Missions and HotAC. I do want to win.

TOURNAMENT is the word I like to use as it's all about the tournament and tournament meta. That's the better word.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

Actually you statement is a little contradictory but I get the idea. However I think there are plenty who might not agree. I like to win, I like to be highly competitive. But depending on the crowd and game I can loose and have just as much fun.

For example I played miniatures against these two guys for a long while. Regardless of how often we played they were always predictable in their deployment and approach. I rarely lost. I'm not patting myself on the back but I just slaughtered them. So occasionally I did played sub-optimally. Yes I threw the game and lost. Guess what I had lots of fun. Of course in other games I could be cut-throat, blocking you moves, denying advantages, etc... Also and especially with new players, I usually offer them advise. I'll let them know that a particular move they are making might not be the best and to do this for example. Guess what, I might win at those games too. I enjoy winning and I can play competitively enough to trounce my opponents, and have, winning my large margins. But no that isn't what is the most fun for me. It can be satisfying for the moment. I like the mental challenge and being around friends even if I loose; I like the people I game with and even the look they have when they win.

So when you say 'the point of playing is to win', I believe that may be point for you.

But for me, while I do enjoy winning I would say playing a game in good company for fun is the point, win or lose.

Riddle me this: why is winning fun?

Also, what makes X-wing fun?

Simple: Overcoming challenge does induce your brain with agreeable drugs. ;-)

Sure, but I think the fun you can get from winning and playing x-wing can be a more complex formula.

What sounds more fun to you: winning with a list that you saw flown at Gencon, or winning with a list you've created from scratch?

Which does sound more challenging to you? ^-^

Thing is: You need to overcome the challenge to get those sweet little drugs.

The article mentions that it is a good idea to stay away from complex lists that you do not understand. This is sound advice, but leaves open to play proven lists which you do understand, clearly building your own list is more enjoyable, but if you are still not fit enough for list building than getting advice is clearly a good idea. Besides: There are only so many good combinations, I am happy t see my Jax, Fel, Inq list successful at the UK, and the Mynock special became a big thing even (with the addition of Kallus, which I am still not 100% sold on), but I am as well quite sure that people came up with those list on their own. A lot of the netlists are obvious choices, how they perform in the current meta is the not so obvious thing about them.

List quality aside, my point is that if you wrote your own list then you probably feel better about a win than if you are using someone else's list, because you have a sense of ownership. You can have a sense of ownership with pretty much any list, even ones that are straight netlisted, but the most direct way to achieve that ownership is writing your own list from scratch. You can also get a feeling of ownership by flying a list for a long time, or tweaking a list someone else made.

New player here:

I have the two core sets, a X-wing expansion, and an Interceptor expansion. I'm having a blast playing with my son and a friend from church. Would I do well in a tournament? Probably not. Do I feel the need to be "competitive" at this point (or ever)? Probably not. As long as I can continue to "pew-pew" and throw a few bucks at FFG for more toys every now and then, I'm happy.

This article was written for me.

Good comment to keep it in perspective.

Overall I think it's a good article for new players. There are a couple sentences that I found a bit misleading, but overall it's a good intro. I'm not a hyper-competitive player, but I was reading the article critically with an eye on RETENTION. It's fine to get a new player in the door, but we want him to stay, right? I've seen new players quit after an initial purchase and a few weeks of arse-kickings. So I would probably follow up this article with a second one on targeted purchases for the different factions. What you buy DOES matter to your win/loss ratio, and that can be important to the ego of a new player.

FWIW, I played in the Nationals qualifier at GenCon because I was there and wanted the participation prizes, but I rarely play in tournaments. My small group plays once a week at my brother's house, and we usually play 2v2 or 3v2 games. When we had a new player join, we gave him advice on what to buy based on his chosen faction, and I think it helped him enjoy the game quite a bit.

When we had a new player join, we gave him advice on what to buy based on his chosen faction, and I think it helped him enjoy the game quite a bit.

Best response in the thread. When I play it's with all my personal stuff so my friends don't have to buy anything and I have a lot of stuff. I've had friends go ohh I love that ship I want to play that one. I get them all set up with good upgrades and after the game they have been disappointed at times and I have heard several times, wow that ship sucks. This kind of buyers remorse is real and I'd rather see new people cherry pick good ideas instead of floundering with flops and quit disgusted they wasted money. This game, even casually, has some really hard avenues and it's not cheap enough for many to just have fun and get over it.

I'd agree on that. The point of playing games is to win. Yes, you play for fun but it is more fun to win. You want to play well and smart and win. That's the whole point of competing at all.

No, the point of playing games is to play. The point of winning games is to feed your ego.

But I never get the guys who don't see the point in playing if there isn't something on the line.

That is called gambling, and it is an entirely different addiction.

“When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.”

― Reiner Knizia

I really like this quote. It ties right into what Heychadwick is saying about being competitive. Both players need to try to win for the game to work and be fun.

Or, if you prefer, "It is not whether you win or lose, it is how you play the game."

Riddle me this: why is winning fun?

Also, what makes X-wing fun?

Which does sound more challenging to you? ^-^

Thing is: You need to overcome the challenge to get those sweet little drugs.

Again making the tourney X-Wing player sound more like an addict than someone you'd like to spend some social time with.

When we had a new player join, we gave him advice on what to buy based on his chosen faction, and I think it helped him enjoy the game quite a bit.

Best response in the thread. When I play it's with all my personal stuff so my friends don't have to buy anything and I have a lot of stuff. I've had friends go ohh I love that ship I want to play that one. I get them all set up with good upgrades and after the game they have been disappointed at times and I have heard several times, wow that ship sucks. This kind of buyers remorse is real and I'd rather see new people cherry pick good ideas instead of floundering with flops and quit disgusted they wasted money. This game, even casually, has some really hard avenues and it's not cheap enough for many to just have fun and get over it.

I agree I'd rather see people cherry pick good ships rather than quit, but as a new player I would disagree that the game is, "not cheap enough for many to have fun and get over it." I believe ship choice is all about the participants motivation. The TIE Punisher is not considered a very good ship, but I have 3 of them because I love them or at least the idea of them. My main problem with them is they are a more expensive bomber that doesn't really do much the bomber can't; I don't love this, so I created a couple of titles for them to make them play different and I (if I ever find some free time) am working on a mission to use my 3 Punishers. I could build any list I wanted and I don't have any desire to build meta list. My point is that FFG releases plastic ships for me to play with and I buy ships because they look cool then I fly whatever seems fun to fly and if something isn't as fun as I'd like it to be I can make it fun because they are my ships now and I can do what I want with them. As a new player you are going to lose no matter what list you can build, personally I think buying ships just because you like the way they look or because you remember it from a movie is better than worrying about what is going to be effective. If someone is hanging out playing a game with friends and is not happy because they aren't winning that just seems like such a shame. My motivations for playing aren't the same as everybody else's though, so if a new person were to ask me for advice I would ask them what their motivations were, if it was winning I would immediately send them to someone else for advice because I've got none that would help, but if it is just to have fun I'd have them try some of my ships to see what they enjoy playing with and then suggest that they buy that. X-wing is a great game to just hang out and play; I am usually probably at least as focused on the interactions I am having with the other player/s as I am on the game itself. The community would probably best serve new people by convincing them to have fun and fly what they like which I believe is what the article was attempting to do.

Coming to this forum and seeing the daily new threads by mathwingers b****ing about "OMG FFG fix this" or "<insert any ship here> is so broken" is, for me, THE LEAST fun thing about this game... but still I drop in on the off-chance there might be some good discussion, advice, or a fun repaint, etc.

I'd honestly just rather not play a fun game I enjoy against someone who has the time and energy to be vocally cynical about an article welcoming newcomers; and this coming from a professional cynic.