Why should people who lose at games be given prizes?

Stop sucking. Not everyone gets a trophy.

Some of us also don't care about trophies. As I've noted a few times on these boards, alt art cards or acrylic templates aren't such a big deal as to be a d*ck over them. That said, given your admissions all over the boards to playing whatever is the go-to meta list (Palp Aces, U-boats, etc), I don't think you have any room to tell anyone how much they "suck" simply because they don't win.

Who earns more respect? The person who flies the same dominant list as everyone else and places well, or the person who uses a little imagination to create their own list and plays it well, even if they lose?

I don't think participation trophies are the way to go, but I think it bears notation that comments like yours represent the kind of attitude that can easily shrink the competitive base of this game, simply because you seem to price yourself in being rude and condescending to anyone who doesn't share your WAAC mentality. If the demeanor you present on these boards is also how you present yourself in real games, I would find a game with you more aggravating than fun, which defeats the point of any GAME.

Now, as I refuse to be part of a flame war, I'll excuse myself from the discussion. I've made my point and see no need to take it any further.

If you haven't already put him on your block list. Many of us have at this point. Don't feed the troll.

Yes, let me spread my poisonous rhetoric without resistance. Do it, block me.

I have a few people on the old ignore list, but I'm not sure about blocking people just because you find their views unpleasant, that's no way to grow as a person. I understand the don't feed the troll idea though and see how the ignore list could help with that. Hmm.

It's not a matter of finding their views unpleasant. It's a matter of I don't come here to read the remarks of despicable people who clearly hate everything and are only here to cause trouble and make themselves feel better. If everyone ignores him he can shout all he wants, no one will care. Kinda like how you deal with a four year old's temper tantrum.

1) I agree that sportsmanship awards should be determined by the TO, not FFG.

2) I won a Tantive IV Expansion Pack as a sportsmanship prize at my first regional event, so I think sportsmanship prizes are good.

I go to two games stores 'locally' (I say local but one is still an hour or so away).

For tournaments, one gives prizes for best sportsmanship and one doesn't.

To be honest, the one that does is a much more comfortable environment and there's been one or two occasions where a complete new guy has turned up (bought Slave 1 and the Core because they looked cool), entered that morning, been completely turned over but walked away with a smile on their face knowing they've found a great game and a brilliant place to play it.

There are some genuinely humble and knowledgeable players who are much nicer people than I am there, nobody tries to 'win' at sportsmanship but it just adds to the overall experience. There is something about it, and promoting sportsmanship there does it no harm.

The other place has some great regulars but the overall experience is less 'casual'. It's okay.

Theres no correlation between how good a place is and prizes for sportsmanship, true - but - I see it like this; if I invest in a game, buy a bunch of stuff for it, I travel all the way there and then pay to enter, I know what venue I'd rather go to. Every time.

I am for it if it can be implemented without abuse, and those who deserve it are recognized.

The problem is that it's very hard to come up with a system that can't be abused. I've heard plenty of stories about people who were very friendly and good sports who got a 0 because they were also very good at the game and stomped the other guy, or just won for that matter.

I remember my days playing H***C***

What in the everloving name of jesus titty sprinkling christ, is H**** C****?

Hero Clix. Or Star Trek Attack Wing. And no, FFG has never officially put into print a "sportsmanship award". However TO's are welcome to do as they please, some are more creative and better than others. Choose wisely!

I am for it if it can be implemented without abuse, and those who deserve it are recognized.

The problem is that it's very hard to come up with a system that can't be abused. I've heard plenty of stories about people who were very friendly and good sports who got a 0 because they were also very good at the game and stomped the other guy, or just won for that matter.

That's how my last Regionals went. I found out about 4 days prior that I was going, so I had nothing prepared or practiced. I brought a list I was half-decent at in relaxed FLGS play. I was totally stomped. Like, brutally. My first match was against a Denagroo list (that at that point I had neither heard of nor played against) and was tabled in 17 minutes. To be fair, it was the tournament winner that did it. Did I care? Nope. I was the ultimate in Fly Casual that day. I went 0-5 with one bye, and managed to squeak in as the 64th place player so got my Hera card. Again, did I care? No. Did I have fun, and stayed for all my matches even though I knew I was going to be clobbered each match? Sure. It was fun.

So, to all the trolls...

FLY CASUAL

It's more fun than you can possibly understand.

The issue with the Wizkids fellowship stuff, was that it was highly desirable. Like all of Wizkids prize support. So it kind of encourages bad feelings when something so subjective or political (when it comes to player votes) is used for a desirable prize. Luckily, FFG avoids that kind of prize support.

Page 1 wasn't too bad but page 2 of this thread was certainly worth skipping.

...

If you want to encourage good sportsmanship, it would probably work best as a check box on the results sheet - check if you felt your opponent was a particularly good sport or extremely fun to play against. It assumes everyone is generally going to be a good sport and give a chance to call out those who went above and beyond while preventing sore losers from using it for revenge. At the end, the player with the most checks (votes) could get the award.

IF there was going to be a sportsmanship award it shouldn't be tied to tournament performance at all and as mentioned here should probably be a possitive thing only. While I almost like this concept it runs smack into two types of people who will totally screw up the system: those who think almost everyone is great and thus marks that way and those who wouldn't give another person the time of day even if they know it and lose nothing by giving it. If these two meet in what could be considered a "sportsmanship neutral" game the free respect guy gives the other a good mark for sportsmanship yet they other guy doesn't even consider giving the other guy that point. Now who is ahead in the voting? At the end of the day not giving any credit for your opponent's good sportsmanship is obviously the way to get ahead especially when you're bound to run into someone who gives it freely.

Fly casuals dead brah, the Roanoke 8 killed it off.

No, the outrageous reaction to that event's outcome did.

Yeah it went pretty quickly south there on page 2.

For sure, there will be those people who will check everyone's good sportsmanship box and those who will actually tear it off the results sheet as an insult to evolution or something (excuse the hyperbole). However, I wouldn't expect either of those extremes to be overly represented. So one guy gives everybody a vote and one gives nobody a vote. Everyone ends up with one vote minimum except Mr. Everyone is Awesome. If the rest of the participants are more average in their sentiments, then the negative extreme person gets no further votes, and the positive extreme may get some. Should work out. It's miles better than an actual numerical sportsmanship score for the very reason ParaGoomba pointed out - give everyone a zero and hope everyone else does the same except some tool who takes the scoring at face value and actually gives people the points they deserve.

Anyway, as has been said, it probably lies more with the venue and organizers to implement because it directly reflects on their event and could garner an excellent reputation for the store.

Sportsmanship scores aren't a bad idea, but it needs a strong culture behind it in the gaming community, and TO's need to be vigilant to stop jerks from abusing it. Without mass acceptance behind the practice like it at least used to have in the 40k Community, it's impractical for official support from FFG, honestly.

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To stay polite, all I get from your post is that playing anything with you sounds like the complete opposite of fun and I wonder how you manage to get games.

Soft scores (sportsmanship, painting, army list, etc.) are horrible, and often lead more to gaming the system and general garbage than not having them at all. They become a way to weaponize things like "I put in a minimal amount of effort to check off the right boxes on a sheet to get me more tournament points" or "if you don't give me a takeback when I want one, you are getting docked scores". I've played many games with soft scores in their tournament rules and run even more events with them, and they are consistently a detriment to the goals they are theoretically meant to reinforce.

If someone is fun to play against, tell them so and ask for a pickup game later. Internalize the stuff they did that made you feel that way so you can spread the love.

If someone has a cool repainted fleet, tell them it's rad, ask to take a picture.

If someone has a sweet squadron list, make an effort to fly something equally fun / different / well-themed and have a blast flying it.

Bringing any of this into some kind of measurable number in a tournament setting doesn't actually encourage the positive aspects. People who want to be a good opponent / paint something sweet / fly a unique list do so because they find it rewarding already. Giving people tournament points for something soft just makes the jerks try to get in on the action and do it in a way that actually makes them worse rather than better.

If you want your community to be better, grow it to be so. Lead by example and be a fun, welcoming player. This is how you build community and genuinely support and encourage the attitudes you want to see. Numbers on a sheet and a TO-supplied award for having the biggest number in Soft Score Category X/Y/Z do not actually grow and nurture shared positive community aspects.

*** EDIT ***

In this I use the term 'tournament points' not in relation to determining overall tournament standing for prizes / top cuts / whatever, but as a stand-in for "way to measure giving out any kind of recognition or award"

I remember my days playing H***C*** and one of the great aspects of playing in tournaments was the chance to win something for being a good sport. The concept involved all the players choosing someone they had played during the course of the tournament as a good sport. (Yes, sometimes the winner was the top vote getter and then the second highest vote got the award.) It certainly softened the blow of losing and definitely affected how the diehards played. As I've just started in the past few months, I'm not aware if any attempt was made to make this part of the tournament scene.

I bring this up because I heard one person at a store I play at say he disliked playing new players. Another guy I played had 3 scouts and a Mist Hunter (150 point game) and was pretty clear about not wanting to "coach" me. During the game, he rolled before I could declare Target Lock rerolls. There was a point when he was doing manuevers and my ship got bumped as well as an asteroid and when it was all settled, my straight movement took me across the tip of the asteroid. I argued that I set up that manuever with a clear feel for avoiding the rock but he insisted I take the damage roll.

I'm not sure a sportsmanship reward would change that particular player but it could encourage new players to engage in tournaments for a possible prize beyond the participant reward.

Your thoughts?

As far as sportsmanship goes, is it's something the individual players can handle. For instance, I played a new player the other day and even though I brought a casual list that wasn't too complicated I still beat him, but throughout the game we talked through the steps of where he thinks I'm going and actions and such. Then I gave him a few alt art cards I had a bunch extra of to help him build his future lists and he appreciated it and wasn't discouraged from the loss. I'm not saying give away your stuff but if you're a good sport people will respond to it naturally. The people who aren't a good sport won't become one because of an reward.

I don't know about sportsmanship, but if you want to reward someone with a positive attitude at a tournament, give a prize to the lowest ranked player who played every round. That rewards people for continuing to play, as opposed to those folks who get frustrated after a couple of losses and drop because they can't win.

Soft scores (sportsmanship, painting, army list, etc.) are horrible, and often lead more to gaming the system and general garbage than not having them at all. They become a way to weaponize things like "I put in a minimal amount of effort to check off the right boxes on a sheet to get me more tournament points" or "if you don't give me a takeback when I want one, you are getting docked scores". I've played many games with soft scores in their tournament rules and run even more events with them, and they are consistently a detriment to the goals they are theoretically meant to reinforce.

...snip...

*** EDIT ***

In this I use the term 'tournament points' not in relation to determining overall tournament standing for prizes / top cuts / whatever, but as a stand-in for "way to measure giving out any kind of recognition or award"

I wouldn't go so far as saying those "soft scores" have no place at a tournament but they certainly should be something outside of the regular scoring and with support from other sources. I've seen the customization/painting thing brought up before and while I could appreciate it if there is some contest for it with prizes it really should be outside the main tournament. There is also that wonderful debate about how something should be selected be it an third-party judge or voting by peer as each as benefits and drawbacks.

Sportsmanship awards would really be one of those hard things to "score" especially by those involved. It the TO or someone else observing the game were to go around "scoring" players for some eventual sportsmanship award but putting it into the game level would just make it another tool that could be used.

If sportsmanship awards are not the way to go, they could just penalize people for being giant tool bags during matches. Like rolling before giving a reasonable amount of time to declare target lock rerolls earns you a 5 point penalty. Rolling your defense dice before any normal person would have a chance to declare modifications to their attack roll is just as much of an abuse of the rules as catching someone nudging their ship's base when they realize they're going to clip an asteroid.

If sportsmanship awards are not the way to go, they could just penalize people for being giant tool bags during matches. Like rolling before giving a reasonable amount of time to declare target lock rerolls earns you a 5 point penalty. Rolling your defense dice before any normal person would have a chance to declare modifications to their attack roll is just as much of an abuse of the rules as catching someone nudging their ship's base when they realize they're going to clip an asteroid.

What you are describing isn't something that needs or wants any kind of 'score'. Those are rules and code of conduct issues that should be dealt with by addressing them directly with your opponent and with a TO / Judge. If you are uncomfortable addressing your opponent directly, then you should seek a Judge/TO and ask them to address it.

In short, the penalty assessed in a case like what you are describing isn't "-5 points" but "stop that or you are going to get a match loss / DQ", as should be the case for people who are breaking the rules or being abusive towards their opponents.

I wouldn't go so far as saying those "soft scores" have no place at a tournament but they certainly should be something outside of the regular scoring and with support from other sources. I've seen the customization/painting thing brought up before and while I could appreciate it if there is some contest for it with prizes it really should be outside the main tournament. There is also that wonderful debate about how something should be selected be it an third-party judge or voting by peer as each as benefits and drawbacks.

Sportsmanship awards would really be one of those hard things to "score" especially by those involved. It the TO or someone else observing the game were to go around "scoring" players for some eventual sportsmanship award but putting it into the game level would just make it another tool that could be used.

Usually folks who repaint and customize their models, do so because the reward and motivation is personal, and the enjoyment is in the doing and in showing off the finished project and sharing their art (and it *is* art, make no mistake).

Certainly, if a store or TO wants to hold a painting competition or give an award for the coolest customized fleet, that's just peachy, but it *needs* to be explicitly separated form the tournament structure. No checkbox on the result slip for "did your opponent have a cool repaint or conversion". Otherwise, correctly or not, some players will perceive it as being another axis by which to win things at a tournament, while simultaneously some folks who just want to play the game / don't enjoy painting their ships / don't feel like they're good enough to paint well feel like they're being penalized for not repainting their minis in a prepainted miniatures game.

For sportsmanship, it just gets too murky and too subjective way too fast. Here are some non-hypothetical cases from my own experience running events:

Opponent thought you were cool, but they don't like [iNSERT LIST ARCHETYPE HERE]? chances are high they're going to give you a lower sportsmanship score.

Play against someone who is trying to game the system? expect them to give you low scores, just so they can nudge the curve (all the while they'll be glad-handing and being falsely nice in order to pad their own numbers).

TO / Judge / Some other 3rd party is assigning sportsmanship scores (secretly or not)? This is a massive trap, and next to nobody will feel that the results are unbiased or fair.

Socially awkward player trying super hard to be a fun opponent, but doesn't have the right social skills or awareness? Their scores will get tanked and they won't know why, and they will feel horrible, and possibly even get discouraged from trying.

Opponent makes a blunder and asks for a takeback, but you (100% rightly) deny their request because it's a tournament and you want to play a clean game? Expect to be docked points.

And that's just a few off the top of my head.

Again, if you want to encourage people to be awesome, welcoming, great opponents, the most effective thing you can do is to lead by example and make that the norm. When the expectation is that your store / playgroup is fun to play with and everyone has a blast and feels welcome to play regardless of experience or investment, it becomes a self-reinforcing attitude. Good folks who enjoy that atmosphere will continue to play, and folks who want to be jerks will either figure it out and come around, or will move along.

Painting prizes, sportsmanship prizes, sure. They work.

Factoring a subjective element into objective tournament scoring is asking for trouble though. Keep 'em separate.

Guys guys guys. I got it. We come up with a fair system to award a sportsmanship award to the truly best sportsman in every game of a tournament, and we allow them to make any changes to Palpatine, Aces, Rebel Regen, and Super Dash that they want.

It would be worth it just to see PGS actually try to care about a human being other than himself. And I mean that in like a, "that would be really funny and painful to watch" kind of way.

Given that X-wing is so far the only system I saw where playing by the rules can get you called a bad sport I doubt it's a very good idea.

I am for it if it can be implemented without abuse, and those who deserve it are recognized.

The problem is that it's very hard to come up with a system that can't be abused. I've heard plenty of stories about people who were very friendly and good sports who got a 0 because they were also very good at the game and stomped the other guy, or just won for that matter.

That's how my last Regionals went. I found out about 4 days prior that I was going, so I had nothing prepared or practiced. I brought a list I was half-decent at in relaxed FLGS play. I was totally stomped. Like, brutally. My first match was against a Denagroo list (that at that point I had neither heard of nor played against) and was tabled in 17 minutes. To be fair, it was the tournament winner that did it. Did I care? Nope. I was the ultimate in Fly Casual that day. I went 0-5 with one bye, and managed to squeak in as the 64th place player so got my Hera card. Again, did I care? No. Did I have fun, and stayed for all my matches even though I knew I was going to be clobbered each match? Sure. It was fun.

So, to all the trolls...FLY CASUAL

It's more fun than you can possibly understand.

Now that I play Grav Cents (without Draigo!), and win more than I lose, I get no sportsmanship votes.

The Vancouver area is pretty big on sportsmanship - which is fine, we don't want any of that super power gaming thunderwolf dark stars - but I can tell that people tend to get salty when they lose. Hell, I tend to vote for a gracious loser for my favorite opponent before I vote for someone who beat me down, unless he was really chill.

Guys guys guys. I got it. We come up with a fair system to award a sportsmanship award to the truly best sportsman in every game of a tournament, and we allow them to make any changes to Palpatine, Aces, Rebel Regen, and Super Dash that they want.

It would be worth it just to see PGS actually try to care about a human being other than himself. And I mean that in like a, "that would be really funny and painful to watch" kind of way.

I'm pretty sure that is a sign of the end times.

Guys guys guys. I got it. We come up with a fair system to award a sportsmanship award to the truly best sportsman in every game of a tournament, and we allow them to make any changes to Palpatine, Aces, Rebel Regen, and Super Dash that they want.

It would be worth it just to see PGS actually try to care about a human being other than himself. And I mean that in like a, "that would be really funny and painful to watch" kind of way.

You mean when I'm playing a game, my opponent misses a trigger, I say "You already fired with your PS 7, you missed your chance to fire with your PS 8.", and a third party who had the bye that round butts in telling me how I'm an *******, how what I'm doing is so sh*tty, and that he hopes karma gets me?

Why should I care about players other than myself? Firstly, this is a competetive wargame, the idea is to stomp their throat out not hug them. Secondly, half of them are going to throw a fit if I hold them to the rules. Why not just fly nothing but Dengaroo and Palp Aces? If I fly a 'fun', skill intensive, underpowered list with 4 T-65's and 4 R7 Astromechs someone else who isn't gimping themselves will just fly Power RAC and Soontir for the 5th week in a row and kick my ass and place 1st for the 5th week in a row. I could be that guy instead.

And hey, while I'm doing it I'll have a laugh as I'm picking up my 5 dice for my Advanced Proton Torpedo shot from Dengar. "And Dengar's Counterattack. Hmm, it only has one health. You know what? Let's use APT's on it. Nuke it from orbit, only way to be sure."

Given that X-wing is so far the only system I saw where playing by the rules can get you called a bad sport I doubt it's a very good idea.

Can't have seen many systems then.