This is something many people seem to either miss or intentionally skip. You can play strictly by the rules and still fly casual, the fact that I don't let you fix a mistake doesn't mean I'm breaking any sort of social contract, especially when we're playing at a tournament.

Last night I was playing X-Wing at the LGS and I was trying out Emon with bombs and EI. I could use EI to drop a bomb after taking a Focus action. A couple times I dropped a bomb and then went to take a focus, and the guy I was playing pointed out that was doing it wrong, I can't use EI for focus. The end result was the same, focus token, bomb dropped and a stress, and he was fine with letting me do it out of order. Just pointing out that someone else may not allow it. They'd be well within their rights to not allow it, and not allowing it wouldn't make them a poor sport.

Yes it would make them a poor sport. There's a solid difference between things that actually effect the game (barrel roll -> bomb drop vs. bomb drop -> barrel roll using your EI example) and pedantically nitpicking rules minutiae for no good reason other than to WAAC.

Pointing it out, totally cool. Not allowing it, perfectly within their rights. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Not allowing someone to Focus after dropping a Bomb when equiped with EI would not make a poor sport. It may make them a stickler for the rules and I wouldn't say they are being a "good sport" but I do NOT believe that sportsmanship is either good or bad with no room in the middle for neutral play.

I certainly believe the good sport will forgive errors that could easily be backed up and repeated properly but if you're going to be a slave to the letter of the rules that would not be allowed.

When it comes to sportmanship I can also see where some levels of measurement could turn into a bone of contention.

This is something many people seem to either miss or intentionally skip. You can play strictly by the rules and still fly casual, the fact that I don't let you fix a mistake doesn't mean I'm breaking any sort of social contract, especially when we're playing at a tournament.

Last night I was playing X-Wing at the LGS and I was trying out Emon with bombs and EI. I could use EI to drop a bomb after taking a Focus action. A couple times I dropped a bomb and then went to take a focus, and the guy I was playing pointed out that was doing it wrong, I can't use EI for focus. The end result was the same, focus token, bomb dropped and a stress, and he was fine with letting me do it out of order. Just pointing out that someone else may not allow it. They'd be well within their rights to not allow it, and not allowing it wouldn't make them a poor sport.

Yes it would make them a poor sport. There's a solid difference between things that actually effect the game (barrel roll -> bomb drop vs. bomb drop -> barrel roll using your EI example) and pedantically nitpicking rules minutiae for no good reason other than to WAAC.

Pointing it out, totally cool. Not allowing it, perfectly within their rights. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

You're completely wrong. Playing by the rules doesn't make you waac or a jerk. Some of us actually want to play a clean and tight version of the game aka the version the developers created.

Sorry, I'll amend that to WAAC or OCD...

Playing by the rules doesn't make you a jerk. Forcing the person across the table to adhere to a rigid and absolute standard, that has no impact on the outcome of the game and is instead simply a blind following of process solely for the sake of process, on the other hand does. Their action caused you no tangible harm, the reverse is not true.

But that's my subjective opinion on the matter which is incidentally why there would be so many hurt feelings over any sort of official sportsmanship prize

If I only have PtL, ideally I would boost with Manaroo, see if I got out of range, then decide whether or not to do Gonk actions. But PtL doesn't allow my second action to be something that's not in my action bar.

If it was just something that doesn't change the game state like placing a token down, of course, fine go ahead. As long as you haven't measured anything already for a Target Lock.

But even allowing a focus with EI after they've dropped a bomb is something that you'd have reason not to allow. They might not have focused if they didn't have perfect knowledge of where that ACTION bomb would end up and had to do it in the proper order.

I do NOT believe that sportsmanship is either good or bad with no room in the middle for neutral play.

This is a fair point and poor sport is perhaps too harsh a term. It's a subjective and sliding scale and motive, which is all but impossible to divine, matters in that personal judgement. So perhapns it doesn't land them all the way over in the poor sport category but it also doesn't get them anywhere close to good sportsmanship.

This is something many people seem to either miss or intentionally skip. You can play strictly by the rules and still fly casual, the fact that I don't let you fix a mistake doesn't mean I'm breaking any sort of social contract, especially when we're playing at a tournament.Last night I was playing X-Wing at the LGS and I was trying out Emon with bombs and EI. I could use EI to drop a bomb after taking a Focus action. A couple times I dropped a bomb and then went to take a focus, and the guy I was playing pointed out that was doing it wrong, I can't use EI for focus. The end result was the same, focus token, bomb dropped and a stress, and he was fine with letting me do it out of order. Just pointing out that someone else may not allow it. They'd be well within their rights to not allow it, and not allowing it wouldn't make them a poor sport.

Yes it would make them a poor sport. There's a solid difference between things that actually effect the game (barrel roll -> bomb drop vs. bomb drop -> barrel roll using your EI example) and pedantically nitpicking rules minutiae for no good reason other than to WAAC.

Pointing it out, totally cool. Not allowing it, perfectly within their rights. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Not allowing someone to Focus after dropping a Bomb when equiped with EI would not make a poor sport. It may make them a stickler for the rules and I wouldn't say they are being a "good sport" but I do NOT believe that sportsmanship is either good or bad with no room in the middle for neutral play.

I certainly believe the good sport will forgive errors that could easily be backed up and repeated properly but if you're going to be a slave to the letter of the rules that would not be allowed.

When it comes to sportmanship I can also see where some levels of measurement could turn into a bone of contention.

When you drop a bomb you are changing the board state. Whether you are dealing damage by dropping it on a ship or just leaving it on the table, after dropping the bomb you now have more information available to you then before dropping the bomb. You were suppose to decide if you'd be taking the focus and the stress prior to seeing the result of the bomb placement. In this instance doing things out of order is gaining an advantage that woud not have otherwise existed had the abilities been executed properly. No one should be asking for that sort of take back. It's jerk move to expect your opponent to give you that sort of take back.

Calling an opponent that refuses to give a player a takeback that grants them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have had if things had been executed properly a poor sport is absurd. It's just as absurd as the player that allows their opponent to execute things improperly for most of the game and then all of a sudden to become a stickler when it is to their advantage.

If you use EI/PtL to reposition or drop bombs or to do something like Saboteur or BMST, you could gain an advantage by doing it in a certain order. One that might not be allowed by the restrictions put on EI/PtL.

If I only have PtL, ideally I would boost with Manaroo, see if I got out of range, then decide whether or not to do Gonk actions. But PtL doesn't allow my second action to be something that's not in my action bar.

If it was just something that doesn't change the game state like placing a token down, of course, fine go ahead. As long as you haven't measured anything already for a Target Lock.

But even allowing a focus with EI after they've dropped a bomb is something that you'd have reason not to allow. They might not have focused if they didn't have perfect knowledge of where that ACTION bomb would end up and had to do it in the proper order.

Which is why it's all about the context and so subjective. If the bomb were overlapping or close to someone and I felt like they had a reason for wanting to wait and see on the focus then yeah, legit to call them on that. But really that's attempting to tear apart the strawman of a basic example offered up for the sake of discussion. What it really comes down to is that in this game, given the manual template based movement, there is a degree of nondeterminism. Things are not and never will be perfectly exact. If the situation provides no more advantage than the fraction of a degree of uncertainty when placing a plastic ship with a cardboard template then giving them the benefit of the doubt is the better option. Perhaps not in the ultra narrow scope of that single game, but in the larger scope of ensuring everyone is having a good time and will bother showing up next week.

I'm not saying to never call anyone on rules violations or sloppy play. I'm saying that doing so simply for the sake of doing so makes the game unfun for the other person and serves no real purpose other than WAAC or succumbing to anti social impulses.

In a tournament, the players are all expected to play at their best and play by the rules. Under these conditions there should be no expectations of takebacks or forgiveness of mistakes. Following the rule to the letter is in fact required by the tournament rules and anything less is disallowed. That is the base level of acceptable sportsmanship. Sportsmanship should not be used as a measure of how much your opponent allowed you to bend the rules, cheat, or change/take back actions. The literal definition, according to Meriam-Webster is "fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior." Good sportsmanship should be the default behavior and there are rules in place to handle bad sportsmanship.

What we are calling sportsmanship should probably be called something else, really. Fun factor maybe. Was your opponent fun to play against, kept the game moving, and contributed to a positive environment? Did they go above and beyond? This particular metric should not be effected by any rules issues, questions, disputes, or anything.

In a tournament, the players are all expected to play at their best and play by the rules. Under these conditions there should be no expectations of takebacks or forgiveness of mistakes. Following the rule to the letter is in fact required by the tournament rules and anything less is disallowed. That is the base level of acceptable sportsmanship. Sportsmanship should not be used as a measure of how much your opponent allowed you to bend the rules, cheat, or change/take back actions. The literal definition, according to Meriam-Webster is "fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior." Good sportsmanship should be the default behavior and there are rules in place to handle bad sportsmanship.

What we are calling sportsmanship should probably be called something else, really. Fun factor maybe. Was your opponent fun to play against, kept the game moving, and contributed to a positive environment? Did they go above and beyond? This particular metric should not be effected by any rules issues, questions, disputes, or anything.

But what kind of sportsmanship is it to point out things that could, and even should, be done?

If you DO something and it leads to poor consequences that is one thing. Where I feel a place that good sportsmanship lies is when you point out the inactions that someone is making. I know this gets usually gets discussed when we mention "missed opportunities" but as far as I'm concerned there should be none of those in a game. If someone is going to pass on an opportunity it should be specifically confirmed instead of simply taking some kind of silence as a confirmation or even rushing that by trying to get them to "skip" it so you can get on before they realize what they can still do.

In a tournament, the players are all expected to play at their best and play by the rules. Under these conditions there should be no expectations of takebacks or forgiveness of mistakes. Following the rule to the letter is in fact required by the tournament rules and anything less is disallowed. That is the base level of acceptable sportsmanship. Sportsmanship should not be used as a measure of how much your opponent allowed you to bend the rules, cheat, or change/take back actions. The literal definition, according to Meriam-Webster is "fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior." Good sportsmanship should be the default behavior and there are rules in place to handle bad sportsmanship.

What we are calling sportsmanship should probably be called something else, really. Fun factor maybe. Was your opponent fun to play against, kept the game moving, and contributed to a positive environment? Did they go above and beyond? This particular metric should not be effected by any rules issues, questions, disputes, or anything.

I used to run STAW events long ago, and now do x-wing tournaments. On any tournament I've had a prize like this, THIS is how its done. You put on a slip of paper your favorite match of the day. Only people you played. Turns out, that guy in the corner or bottom tables thats laughing hysterically and making PEW PEW noises actually helps your game more than you know. Thats who should get this prize.

Which is why it's all about the context and so subjective.

No it really isn't.

There's three types of "sports" in this case. There's good sports, poor sports, and neutral. Now you can say that someone who lets the other guy take back a move, or perform an action they forgot is a good sport. For example letting someone put down a cloaking token after the fact. But not allowing that is not an example a poor sport, it is an example of playing by the rules.

Playing by the rules never makes you a poor sport, it's your attitude that does that. On the flipside, allowing someone to take back a move can still be poor sportsmanship if you act all passive aggressive about it.

If the bomb were overlapping or close to someone

Again that doesn't matter, the game state and the board has changed. In last night's game I would not of given it a second thought if he told me no, I sure wouldn't of thought he was a poor sport, but in this case where the bombs are don't matter because they are there which means I have more information then I should.

Perhaps not in the ultra narrow scope of that single game, but in the larger scope of ensuring everyone is having a good time and will bother showing up next week.

Which is why most people recognize the difference between a tournament game and a casual game. But on the other hand, if you have someone who gets pissy and doesn't show up next week because they weren't allowed to fix a mistake they made, they are the true poor sport here.

I'm saying that doing so simply for the sake of doing so makes the game unfun for the other person and serves no real purpose other than WAAC or succumbing to anti social impulses.

It is exactly this kind of attitude that turned Fly Casual into the mess it became, where "casuals" used it as a club to beat people over the head when they didn't let them get away with sloppy play.

The fact that you feel playing with precision and by the Rules as Written makes you a WAAC type and anti-social... Well that says everything that needs to be said I think.

Wow. You really work at demonstrating how to be the south-end of a north-bound horse, aren't you?

Yes, and you'd be enabling my behavior if a sportsmanship system were to be developed.

Oh. I wasn't really making any comments on any such system. More just a casual observation.

No it really isn't.

There's three types of "sports" in this case. There's good sports, poor sports, and neutral. Now you can say that someone who lets the other guy take back a move, or perform an action they forgot is a good sport. For example letting someone put down a cloaking token after the fact. But not allowing that is not an example a poor sport, it is an example of playing by the rules.

Playing by the rules never makes you a poor sport, it's your attitude that does that. On the flipside, allowing someone to take back a move can still be poor sportsmanship if you act all passive aggressive about it.

Hence the context and subjectivity, the reason they're doing it and the way they do it matters. Doing something because it has a material impact on the game is not poor sportsmanship, doing it just because you can on the other hand is.

Again that doesn't matter, the game state and the board has changed. In last night's game I would not of given it a second thought if he told me no, I sure wouldn't of thought he was a poor sport, but in this case where the bombs are don't matter because they are there which means I have more information then I should.

Admittedly poor example. Here are 2 better ones both of which have happened to me.

Poe with R5-P9 at end of round still has a focus but is off to one side of the board and far away from the last few minutes of firing. Last low PS pilot shoots and we grab our dials. While deciding on Poe's move I glance at him and notice that he still had his focus and want to use it to regen a shield, I had set one dial he had set none. My opponent denied me as the end phase was over.

Second example, I have a cloaked Whisper. All dials are set and there are no start of activation abilities in game. I have the low PS pilot, I flip my dial but before touching a template or the ship remember I need to decloak Whisper. My opponent denied me as it was no longer the start of the activation phase.

In either case would there have been any material impact on the game vs. what should have happened? No, none at all. No decisions had been made, no information revealed, or board state altered at that point.

Was that poor sportsmanship on his part? In my opinion, yes. Though I suspect you may disagree as in both cases he was following the letter of the rules, which is fine and why I have repeatedly said that it's a subjective metric

Which is why most people recognize the difference between a tournament game and a casual game. But on the other hand, if you have someone who gets pissy and doesn't show up next week because they weren't allowed to fix a mistake they made, they are the true poor sport here.

There are a lot of different levels of tournaments. From the random just for fun thrown together tourney with an alternate format (hangar bay where your opponent picks the list is amazing btw) on up through worlds. And I would say that the tightness of play and strict adherence to rules should escalate in concert with the level of the tourney. Once again, context matters not just in terms of the individual game but in how that game is taking place and against whom. I would treat an 10 year old with a jank list at his first tournament with his dad a great deal differently than an obvious veteran running the pinnacle of meta, which some people would subjectively say is bad sportsmanship on my part.

Agreed on pitching a hissyfit and storming off. More referring to the fact that playing against people who are ultra pedantic just gets tiresome. You have to always be 100% laser focused to not forget anything ever for any reason no matter what and that's just stressful, that's not relaxing, that's not fun, why should I or anyone else spend my Saturday like that when I'm already starved for free time as is?

It is exactly this kind of attitude that turned Fly Casual into the mess it became, where "casuals" used it as a club to beat people over the head when they didn't let them get away with sloppy play.

The fact that you feel playing with precision and by the Rules as Written makes you a WAAC type and anti-social... Well that says everything that needs to be said I think.

Not at all. I do think that having fun matters more than anything but I also think that in general following the rules of the game is fun. If there's an impact on the game from doing something out of order by all means deny it, fly casual shouldn't mean fly poorly. But if you're denying not because the misorder itself gives the other person an advantage but because you calling them on it gives you an advantage then yeah that's WAAC. If you're more concerned with following the rules just for the sake of following the rules when it doesn't effect the result than in reaching a reasonable accommodation with the person across the table ensuring that you both have a good time then yeah that's anti social. If that makes me a filthy casual then so be it but I don't think anyone who has ever played me would use that description. I try to play pretty tight but there are always tradeoffs at the margin for keeping the game moving and I'll take an opponent that plays the game at a steady pace over one that remembers every last single opportunity window any day.

It's all in your attitude. Someone holding me to the rules is never someone being a bad or poor sport. Now if the guy is being a **** and calling me a dumbass and a ****** for forgetting a focus than yeah he's a bad sport. But taking advantage of my mistake is fine and dandy.

For example gencon day 2 playing to make it into the top 8 cut I forget to set my dial with dengar at the start of the 2nd round of the game. No combat was going to happen for atleast 2 more turns since my opponent was banking focus on Palob. I go to flip Dengar's dial over to do his hard 1 turn and I look and see Dengar's dial already face up with the maneuver from the last round. I could have easily lied and said yeah that's what I meant to do but I owned up to my mistake. He asked what we do and I said I'm pretty sure you get to set my dial. We called a judge over and yep he gets to set my dial. He has my dial and knows that he can send me off the board. Now granted I was giving him the puppy dog eyes lol and even jokingly said that you could dial in a hard 1 for me. Alas my charms didn't work and he said if he didn't do this he'd feel like he was making a huge mistake. He dials in a 3 bank right off the board. That sucked. My hopes of making the cut were dashed due to my dumb mistake. He felt bad for it and I knew it was a hard choice. I conceited the match so I could walk the convention a bit and I know manaroo can't solo a list. Afterwards we were talking and he truly felt awful and I told him that honestly it was the right call to make and I'd have done it to him. He wasn't a bad sport at all.

The round after I was playing a guy with TLT y wings and Palob. In the 3rd round he flipped his y wing and did a 1 forward then the other and then put out 2 focus tokens. I told him for the 1st y wing he couldn't do that. He said he was right there to do that and I just said yeah but in the rules you've technically activated the other ship. He shrugged and removed the focus and play continued without hard feelings. He never forgot to put a focus out again. Also later on I forgot to pain bot before he declared his next attack and he denied the pain not which is totally fair. I didn't take it personally and play kept on. We had a fun game where we tried to play as tight as possible.

Excellent idea for the community but seems to mostly come from the individuals and organizers.

Out in my region, we have some steller members/leaders who really do a great job-

Examples includes:

Free ships!!!

Free custom painted ships!

Free custom acrylics, range rulers, palp, etc.

As door prizes, or even finishing last (Wings over the rockies)!!!

Really a shout out to the Denver area for making it a great place.

This weekend we have some wave 9 ships to hand out...

I do like the idea of prizes given randomly at the end of swiss available for everyone who toughs it out.

I hadn't thought that this thread would go so long! And I am really enjoying the detailed examination of what sportsmanship means. With some exceptions, what you all have exhibited is what makes X-Wing play so enjoyable, win or lose. Thanks for participating and by all means, please continue!