Player controlling Durik can choose to spend 1 additional move point when moving through a space occupied by a monster, but what if the monster is standing in water?

A few days ago we had a situation where two of my large monsters were blocking heroes path by partially standing in water, and another player used Durik's special ability + some fatigue tokens to reach the other side (and effectively secure the win for the heroes), by only spending 1 extra move point per occupied space and not taking water into consideration. I didn't raise the issue but I still have doubts if this was legal...?

First, I'm just going to quote Pathfinder Durik's Ability for reference:

During each of your move actions, you may move through spaces containing monsters by spending one additional movement point for each occupied space.

Now, just in order to be clear, in what way was water not taken into consideration? How many movement points did he expend?

I may be wrong, but I cannot interpret it any other way than if the monsters were standing in water, and Pathfinder Durik jumped over them, he should've expended 3 Movement Points per square.

Two because of the water, and then, as the power says, one additional movement point for each occupied space.

Exactly what Luckmann said.

1 MP as normal

+ 1 MP because water

+1 MP because Durik's ability

= 3 MP total per space.

Yeah, that what I though...

To make things a bit clearer, the situation happened on tile 12A:

Squares marked red - 2 ettins

Green arrows - movement of Durik

Yellow arrows - water spaces on his path

He started his move off this tile and ended on another tile, spending 2 move actions + 4 fatigue. He counted 2 movement points per water space occupied by monster, and as I said I didn't raise the question. My bad I guess...

Two full move actions (Speed 5) and four fatigue would give him a grand total of 14 movement points.

I'm assuming that he wasn't just moving from the edge of the tile he came from, just to the edge of the tile he went to, because if my count isn't off, he could still have done that.

2 movement points when entering the tile, jumping a monster.

3 movement points for the square in the water, still jumping a monster.

3 movement points for the square in the water, starting to jump a new monster.

3 movement points for the last square in the water, still jumping that second monster.

1 movement point up on land.
1 final movement point to move off the tile.

He'd even have a movement point to spare!

But I assume he just ran like mad, and yeah, that was your bad. You got suckered, man, but honestly someone at the table should've reacted and said something, and if they did react but didn't say anything, I'd be a bit miffed at them. At my table, I've made it clear that I want everyone to keep a look-out for mistakes, since we all do them all the time, and it's easy to miss something.

Anyway, brownie points for that great presentation of the scenario and the event.

Well Durik could go diagonal so it would be

1. 2 Movement Points

2. 3 Movement Points

3. 3 Movement Points

4. 1 Movement Point

so it would be possible with 9 Movement Points

You guessed right, he wasn't moving from-to nearest squares on a joining tiles. He did spend all 14 points for that and if he counted 3 instead of 2 per water space he wouldn't make it.

Well what the heck, that oversight only cost me a victory

But in my defense I was a bit rusty, haven't played this game in more than 6 months and this was just a warm-up quest before we start full campaign, so I guess no harm done. In defense of other players, they are all new to D2. Thanks for clearing this out for me Luckmann.

We've made similar mistakes, when I suddenly realized that oh, wait, NPC:s can't take fatigue, so I guess Disease is useless, dammit.

...ignoring the fact that if they can't take fatigue, they take damage instead. That quest ended with the NPC at 1 health. Only later did we realize our mistake.

On another note, I won another game in the same campaign on another mistake relating to lieutenants, but when we discovered it in a following quest (the wording made us question the way we had played the previous quest), so we decided to just call it even.

To make things a bit clearer, the situation happened on tile 12A:

Durik could have gone diagonally around the tile corner; IIRC it is legal. So it would have taken only 9 movement points to pass through the Ettins + water.

it is legal as far as I know, good point. maybe the outcome would have been the same after all

it is legal as far as I know, good point. maybe the outcome would have been the same after all

Not at all! The mistakes of the Overlord and the players is part of the game! If he didn't think of it, he didn't think of it, and he would've lost!

I'd probably be enough of a sucker of an Overlord to go "...well.. you.. you could go diagonally" though.

I thought that even when using two move actions, you have to be able to land on an empty space after the first one. Is this not correct?

I read through the movement rules again and couldn't find anything about this, but as large monsters can technically move further than their speed suggests (e.g. Ettins can move 8 spaces with 2 move actions with a speed of 3 if they shrink-move-expand-shrink-move-expand correctly).

I'm also playing Durik atm in the Kindred Fire campaign and was wondering this.

I thought that even when using two move actions, you have to be able to land on an empty space after the first one. Is this not correct?

I read through the movement rules again and couldn't find anything about this, but as large monsters can technically move further than their speed suggests (e.g. Ettins can move 8 spaces with 2 move actions with a speed of 3 if they shrink-move-expand-shrink-move-expand correctly).

I'm also playing Durik atm in the Kindred Fire campaign and was wondering this.

Nope. What a Movement Action really does is give you a number of Movement Points equal to your Speed. So you can take two move actions at once, and then spend the movement points as you see fit.

The ones that are breaking this pattern is really just large monsters, since they shrink as part of a move action, and must either finish the move action or declare what they interrupt their movement with in order to expand. The fact that they can also "abuse" this and take a move action, end it, expand, and then take another move action is beside the point.

This is largely addressed by the answer in the FAQ as to whether someone can interrupt a move action to take another move action - a question I myself asked (in the context of large monsters) on the board, despite having read the FAQ multiple times. D'oh.

So, you can explicitly take move actions even while still performing another move action, adding more Movement Points to your pool of movement points.

I thought that even when using two move actions, you have to be able to land on an empty space after the first one. Is this not correct?

I read through the movement rules again and couldn't find anything about this, but as large monsters can technically move further than their speed suggests (e.g. Ettins can move 8 spaces with 2 move actions with a speed of 3 if they shrink-move-expand-shrink-move-expand correctly).

I'm also playing Durik atm in the Kindred Fire campaign and was wondering this.

Nope. What a Movement Action really does is give you a number of Movement Points equal to your Speed. So you can take two move actions at once, and then spend the movement points as you see fit.

The ones that are breaking this pattern is really just large monsters, since they shrink as part of a move action, and must either finish the move action or declare what they interrupt their movement with in order to expand. The fact that they can also "abuse" this and take a move action, end it, expand, and then take another move action is beside the point.

This is largely addressed by the answer in the FAQ as to whether someone can interrupt a move action to take another move action - a question I myself asked (in the context of large monsters) on the board, despite having read the FAQ multiple times. D'oh.

So, you can explicitly take move actions even while still performing another move action, adding more Movement Points to your pool of movement points.

I see, thank you very much for the elaborate answer!

Basically, an Ettin can for example:

(1) Shrink, move 2 spaces.

(2) Declare that he is interrupting his movement action with a 2nd movement action.

(3) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

(4) Shrink, move 3 spaces (his 2nd movement action).

(5) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

(6) Shrink, move 1 space (the last bit of his 1st movement action).

(7) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

Total additional movement spaces gained = 3.

Total movement spaces crossed = 9, not 6. Bwahahaha!!

Basically, an Ettin can for example:

(1) Shrink, move 2 spaces.

(2) Declare that he is interrupting his movement action with a 2nd movement action.

(3) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

(4) Shrink, move 3 spaces (his 2nd movement action).

(5) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

(6) Shrink, move 1 space (the last bit of his 1st movement action).

(7) Expand and so "gain a movement space".

Total additional movement spaces gained = 3.

Total movement spaces crossed = 9, not 6. Bwahahaha!!

On (5), why is he expanding? You can only expand when interrupting or finishing your movement, and you can only interrupt if you can declare why you're interrupting.

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or this would not be a legal move. The total would then end up at 8, not 9.

Right. After he expanded to interrupt, he would not expand again until either :

-his movement was over (no more MP or he voluntarily gives them up)

Or

-he interrupts to do something else, like attack.

There is no "end of the move action I took in the middle". The second move action essentially becomes part of the first one.

I thought that even when using two move actions, you have to be able to land on an empty space after the first one. Is this not correct?

I read through the movement rules again and couldn't find anything about this, but as large monsters can technically move further than their speed suggests (e.g. Ettins can move 8 spaces with 2 move actions with a speed of 3 if they shrink-move-expand-shrink-move-expand correctly).

I'm also playing Durik atm in the Kindred Fire campaign and was wondering this.

Nope. What a Movement Action really does is give you a number of Movement Points equal to your Speed. So you can take two move actions at once, and then spend the movement points as you see fit.

The ones that are breaking this pattern is really just large monsters, since they shrink as part of a move action, and must either finish the move action or declare what they interrupt their movement with in order to expand. The fact that they can also "abuse" this and take a move action, end it, expand, and then take another move action is beside the point.

This is largely addressed by the answer in the FAQ as to whether someone can interrupt a move action to take another move action - a question I myself asked (in the context of large monsters) on the board, despite having read the FAQ multiple times. D'oh.

So, you can explicitly take move actions even while still performing another move action, adding more Movement Points to your pool of movement points.

However, if you would spend 2 move action to gain 2 x 4 = 8 movement points, and a game effect instructs you to 'end your move action', you lose all those movement points.

Right. After he expanded to interrupt, he would not expand again until either :

-his movement was over (no more MP or he voluntarily gives them up)

Or

-he interrupts to do something else, like attack.

There is no "end of the move action I took in the middle". The second move action essentially becomes part of the first one.

Exactly, because you are essentially just adding to the same pool of movement points. No such pool is ever described in the rules, but it helps to think of it like that, I think.

I thought that even when using two move actions, you have to be able to land on an empty space after the first one. Is this not correct?

I read through the movement rules again and couldn't find anything about this, but as large monsters can technically move further than their speed suggests (e.g. Ettins can move 8 spaces with 2 move actions with a speed of 3 if they shrink-move-expand-shrink-move-expand correctly).

I'm also playing Durik atm in the Kindred Fire campaign and was wondering this.

Nope. What a Movement Action really does is give you a number of Movement Points equal to your Speed. So you can take two move actions at once, and then spend the movement points as you see fit.

The ones that are breaking this pattern is really just large monsters, since they shrink as part of a move action, and must either finish the move action or declare what they interrupt their movement with in order to expand. The fact that they can also "abuse" this and take a move action, end it, expand, and then take another move action is beside the point.

This is largely addressed by the answer in the FAQ as to whether someone can interrupt a move action to take another move action - a question I myself asked (in the context of large monsters) on the board, despite having read the FAQ multiple times. D'oh.

So, you can explicitly take move actions even while still performing another move action, adding more Movement Points to your pool of movement points.

However, if you would spend 2 move action to gain 2 x 4 = 8 movement points, and a game effect instructs you to 'end your move action', you lose all those movement points.

Yeah; essentially, the entirety of the pool of movement points gets dumped.

In a way, it might be good to think of it as if as long as you've still got movement points, you're performing a move action, and anything that ends your move action also empties your pool of movement points.

Now, this isn't always the case, since you can get individual movement points through other means (such as immediately gaining a movement point that you must spend or lose, you wouldn't be subject to "when taking a move action") but it's how I think of it.