Are you sure you were making him pay his costs? Admiral Titus only works the first round on 1 ship. Admiral Konstantine only works if you are near 2 medium or large ships. G8 must be exhausted to use, and then must be within distance 5. Gravity shift reroute only works on obstacles, and then only in the setup phase. G7 doesn't work on "half" the board only at distance 1-3, that's about 10" out of a 6' table.

Sounds like you're either exaggerating quite a bit or you didn't actually hold him to what he is actually able to do. When you say the game was "nonstandard" I get you didn't play 400 points, but what is "and what not"?

I was thinking that it might of been a 3x3 game at 400.. .

Good point boss, but until he specifies what "nonstandard" means I can only assume so much.

Turns out it was on a 6x3 bit they only used half of it.

I also totally replied before looking at the entire thread to see the pics.

People have said it better and you yourself said it as well Force, this was a non-standard game. Thus all results will be varied and not representative of the actual game.

You could of done a dozen different things even from just obstacle placement that would of helped you out but you played it wrong.

Yes it is like playing against a blue player but Rebels are the best set to deal with that. Leia is one of the best ways, Comms Net is another, and the best is Tantive + Raymus.

It ultimately came down to your play though and very little to do with your opponents. You could of swung our Assault Frigate wide instead of into the jaws of 2 ships, you could have played your squadrons differently, instead you let the objective dictate your deployment AND movement thus making the Imperials job easy.

^ This

You cant say the wave broke the game when you're concocting house rules. You also cant say the new wave broke the game when you chose a bad strategy to play.

You also said the grav token took away "half the board", but, in fact, you only used half the board. You could have set up to nullify the effects of the grav well, but you decided consequences be damned you were gonna try old strategies that don't work any longer. This is not the game breaking this is the game living. If you cant understand the reality that the new stuff needs to be played and experimented with, no one can help you. Also if you take this game and walk away becasue you didn't win, that's the wrong attitude. You should walk away thinking "ok I need to evolve my combos and counters". Unless you go undefeated this year and win worlds, you are going to lose sometime, get over it, play for fun or let me know how much you're selling that liberty and interdictor for.

The new stuff has actually breathed new life into the game.

Sorry, OP but what you are annoyed by is the stale Meta dying. Too bad!

I have fielded a couple of "new" archetypes now and I assure you the cost is worked right in the points, when your choice is often now do I field an interdictor control ship or AN ISD you absolutely have to sacrifice a lot of firepower to activate mechanics that a canny foe can counter by good deployment, good manouvers and good dial setting (before you even start mentioning hard-counter upgrades).

Sure, you might be denied a few squad dials because you need Nav, solution? activate your fighters from outside of range 5...(also keep in mind wave 5 will bring the "relay" keyword that will allow you to activate from further out).

From the Control mechanic players point of view, building a control fleet with standard points I find you either have to sacrifice squadron cover OR firepower AND/OR activations any one of which can see you beaten like a rented mule.

For once (I must be drunk) I fully agree with Lyraeus.

Plus there are various indications that, aside from the non-standard scenarios and the poor strategic choices, the rules were not being followed properly: no obstacle damage for player 1, Titus' ability being used on turn 2... those are both significant issues, and the OP has not addressed them.

Take a breath peeps. Geez.

Take a breath peeps. Geez.

That's not the way of the internet!!!!! Get off my forum!!!!

*Joking*

You know I can't stand people who decide to quit as soon as they lose a game! As the famous Malcon Reynolds might say "What a Whiner!" I honestly don't know why I am eating time on this post, other than this is my sit on the John time! Bottomline dude grow a pair! Figure out what your opponent did to you and learn to counter it. It is that simple. Nothing is unbeatable, if you are going to quit at the first sign of failure then you probably suck at life!

Nothing is unbeatable, but often beating something involves a lot of really lucky dice.

So the basis for the OP now disliking the game is because he had a single bad game against new mechanics and thinks all their future games will be reenactments of that one bad game? Was the idea of adapting strategy to combat new mechanics and "anti-movement" strategy next time not considered post game? Or how not every match is going to be up against an Interdictor?

Oh well, not my problem. I'm going to keep playing with all the cool new stuff.

Regarding his complaint of having control taken away from him, I have to agree with Hastatior. This is about the game evolving. Not just the Interdictor, but also the Slicer Tools are putting a greater premium on building more flexible lists.

The OP mentioned "And the counters in question are cover ups for bad skill in every other use." in his second post, well, now they're more than that. They got buffed, perhaps because much of the community had graduated beyond them. Now they're not training wheels anymore; they're counters to control lists.

I'm really glad I just picked up some Navigation Officers on eBay. ('Cuz I don't buy Rebel ships, that's why.)

Why I now dislike Armada https://imgur.com/gallery/E4dO5

You were playing Konstantine with 500 points on half a map. Konstantine is a force multiplier. Grav well is also much stronger when you are playing with a more limited deploy zone. With a full field you can avoid every ship getting caught every turn, and to afford 3 medium ships with a stacked interdictor means they run light or have zero fighter support at 400 points, making the vic's more vulnerable.

The control lists pay for their shenanigans with weaknesses in other areas. In tournament play it presents another rock/paper/scissor build with mass bombers, shipkillers, and msu builds.... it is very hard to build something strong against all 4 basic meta types.. but I *like* that as it opens up the meta as going too hard in one template risks facing a hard counter, but I understand the flip opinion.

I can also see hating having to play any of the single-purpose meta builds, especially if you get stuck with a bad objective or build to fight it, but to me that is a big part of the game and it's appeal, variety and builds, deployment, scenario all having the potential to derail you early, and having to plan well to avoid it or improvise well to recover.

The face you make when you realize you played directly into an Imperial Control fleet's strength.

OP has a point, though. For some match-ups, the Interdictor and Tractor Beams are going to be a major NPE (negative play experience).

Does it mean the interdictor control fleets are unbeatable or that slicer tools are unbeatable? Of course not. But it will inevitably warp the meta and force people to bring hard counters.

Like, in the era of the Interdictor, you're always taking a huge risk if you spend almost 100 pints on a Gladiator or an MC30 now. So most people probably just won't bring those ships anymore, unless interdictors make close to no meta appearance.

To give you all hope.

My Ackbar MC30s toyed with PTs Konstantine Interdictor fleet. It wasnt a fair fight. That will change I suspect, but initally MC30s are well set up for making attacking runs from outside the control range.

I was mulling over ForceSensitive's comment about squadron heavy builds issuing squadron commands...because I love squadron heavy fleets as well, and I've been wondering if all squadron commands, all the time, is actually the way to go.

In my context the question came up because I was running Madine, and found myself torn between wanting to issue maneuver commands for Madine fun, and squadron commands for squadron efficacy. In the end I don't think the two can really coexist. So I am looking for different ways to run squadron lists. Using rogues, having more squadron command capacity than I need, etc etc. I think the day of "big carrier" squadron lists may have passed...

To continue the Magic analogy, it's as if Magic was launched without blue decks/cards. Now they've been thrown into the mix. Of course there will be an adjustment period. Some builds will be less viable (but not completely because this is Armada). But as in Magic, there are ways to beat blue decks....and there are ways to beat Interdictors. It may not be pretty, but we will find a way.

If rebels can survive Demolisher, this'll be easy.

To give you all hope.

My Ackbar MC30s toyed with PTs Konstantine Interdictor fleet. It wasnt a fair fight. That will change I suspect, but initally MC30s are well set up for making attacking runs from outside the control range.

Yeah this is what I'm talking about. With good deployment and skillful maneouver alllll those points you sink into control mechanics can go for s***. I also found this out the hard way when I got out deployed by an opponent and my interdictor ended up on the wrong side of my ISD. Konstantine didn't even come into play until turn 4 cause I couldn't get 2 L/M bases in range fast enough.

I was mulling over ForceSensitive's comment about squadron heavy builds issuing squadron commands...because I love squadron heavy fleets as well, and I've been wondering if all squadron commands, all the time, is actually the way to go.

In my context the question came up because I was running Madine, and found myself torn between wanting to issue maneuver commands for Madine fun, and squadron commands for squadron efficacy. In the end I don't think the two can really coexist. So I am looking for different ways to run squadron lists. Using rogues, having more squadron command capacity than I need, etc etc. I think the day of "big carrier" squadron lists may have passed...

To continue the Magic analogy, it's as if Magic was launched without blue decks/cards. Now they've been thrown into the mix. Of course there will be an adjustment period. Some builds will be less viable (but not completely because this is Armada). But as in Magic, there are ways to beat blue decks....and there are ways to beat Interdictors. It may not be pretty, but we will find a way.

If rebels can survive Demolisher, this'll be easy.

Sometimes it is less about getting the full navigation benefit and just needing that 1 extra Yaw. Madine just gives you full flexibility. So prep with tokens and go from there!

Whewf. Sorry guys, control fleets are here to stay- they add a whole new exciting element to the game! Be prepared, but please don't throw out your toys because it doesn't fit the old way of Armada.

Whewf. Sorry guys, control fleets are here to stay- they add a whole new exciting element to the game! Be prepared, but please don't throw out your toys because it doesn't fit the old way of Armada.

I will take donations so I can improve my area and meta!

To give you all hope.

My Ackbar MC30s toyed with PTs Konstantine Interdictor fleet. It wasnt a fair fight. That will change I suspect, but initally MC30s are well set up for making attacking runs from outside the control range.

Yeah this is what I'm talking about. With good deployment and skillful maneouver alllll those points you sink into control mechanics can go for s***. I also found this out the hard way when I got out deployed by an opponent and my interdictor ended up on the wrong side of my ISD. Konstantine didn't even come into play until turn 4 cause I couldn't get 2 L/M bases in range fast enough.

G7 doesn't work on "half" the board only at distance 1-3, that's about 10" out of a 6' table.

If you put it on the table and maximize the token so its just less than a small ship base from the edge of the deployment zone, it covers to about 5 inches of the 1/2 way mark. So about 40% of deployment is gone. Unless you just start with a maneuver order.

Play Ozzel?

OP has a point, though. For some match-ups, the Interdictor and Tractor Beams are going to be a major NPE (negative play experience).

Does it mean the interdictor control fleets are unbeatable or that slicer tools are unbeatable? Of course not. But it will inevitably warp the meta and force people to bring hard counters.

Like, in the era of the Interdictor, you're always taking a huge risk if you spend almost 100 pints on a Gladiator or an MC30 now. So most people probably just won't bring those ships anymore, unless interdictors make close to no meta appearance.

As a Physical Demonstration:

This Token is placed so it WILL effect the small ship placed in the very corner (by touching its flank shield dial)... Which is about as far across as you can go.

The area of the deployment zone on my screen, proportionally, effected by The Grav Token is ~17487 pixels.

The area of the deployment zone NOT effected by the Grav Token is ~32799 pixels.

his includes an inherant bias towards the Grav Token, by counting the "Dead Area" between the Right Most edge of the Grav Zone and the Edge of Deployment, where you MAY be able to put a small ship, AS a Grav Shift Token Zone.... because its at the back of the deployment zone.

Its hardly a precise measure, and I didn't exactly feel like breaking out the mathematical equations to maximise the angle... But for a "here's how to apply it in a real-world measure sense", there it is... You're roughly likely to count just over 1/3rd of a deployment Zone in your Effect bubble... Maybe a little more... Perhaps as much as 40% if you're REALLY precise on it...

Not having complete control of your fleet is never ideal, but it just requires a little more thought and precision with movements. I firmly think once the dust settles the Interdictor's strengths will not be with the "nifty" experimental retrofits, but with support ones like targeting scramblers. Its hull strength and engineering rating lend itself to create a great support ship.

But If you're quitting, I can send you my information if you want to send me your Armada stuff. Unemployment during a new wave is even less ideal than loss of course control for your fleet...

I'm in agreement with others that the special board conditions were not really condusive to judging the Intedictor's power. And it seems your opponent was playing wrong (with Titus?) anyway.

Of course Force is going to come away with a negative opinion if he was, in a way, cheating in his favor to maximize the power behind the interdictor. The INT, I imagine, was designed to behave in a proper standard 6x3 match. Changing this is going to impact how the Interdictor works in a way that is not intended. Of course it's going to seem crazy, because it's a very odd playing piece compared to every other ship in the game.

In most standard settings the Interdictor would be far more manageable. Again, the INT does not inhibit attacks or defense, which next to movement are three very essential things for these ships to do to make the game go. Even in terms of movement, you just go an extra speed to counter the effects of the INT, or you take Engine techs on the ships you can to get to exhaust The Interdictor title (Since essentially G8s can only kick twice; once for your original move then again for engine techs, leaving your other ships free to move).

The most I'd worry out of an INT are using Grav shift re-route to park a rock in your way and then hitting you with G-8s to keep you on said rock. That setup is 102 points, and the INT would have to cross the board to make sure it can nab you before you clear the rock.

I can empathize with the frustration of the OP.

What I generally expect of a tactical fleet game is that I control my fleet and you control yours - and may the one with the fewest mistakes and most clever maneuvers win (plus a little dice luck for good measure).

Instead, you end up with your opponent taking your dials, changing your speed, etc. It's a violation of the initial expectation.

This is one of the things that killed Star Trek: Attack Wing - cards that let you either control an opponents movement or remove cards from their build. And at that point it feels more like your opponent is playing solitaire with your fleet than a 2-person game of tactical skill.

I'm not going to quit any time soon because I'm having fun with all of this. But I think the OP's point is valid. There are an increasing number of cards that steal agency away from an opponent. This can be a slippery slope to a 40k-like situation where you know the winner of a game as soon as you see both lists.

Let's hope FFG has some good long-term plans for the game that will keep fun and balance.