Hey!

Ok so I've been GMing weekly sessions for 3 weeks now.

One player bought enough move power upgrades to reach the last Control upgrade:

The character can perform fine manipulation of items, allowing him to do whatever he could normally do with his hands via this power at this power’s range.

So... can he now fight with his lightsaber without actually holding it in his hand?

This would make things too complicated and it'd be too strong a thing to have, in my opinion, so I need some way to balance it out.

I'm thinking:

- Have him commit a force die for this and it'd have to stay that way as long as the saber is flying around

- To make attacks from far away, he now uses Ranged (light) maybe?
- He spends 1 strain per round while maintaining the power.

Thoughts?

Saber Throw is a Talent which means I'd rule that no he can't fight with it with the move power. Yes he could turn it on at a distance but fight with it not really.

Don't forget that a saber @ short range from yourself cannot be used to reflect minion blaster bolts!

There is a talent in the game that allows you to throw a lightsaber. It still uses lightsaber for the attack. Saber throw in Ataru Striker and Shien Expert allow you to throw a saber in combat. The move power in this case isnt going to cut it.

My move house rule essentially fixes this.

Anytime you want to use Telekenesis to damage an opponent. You are using the hurl upgrade. Period.

Anytime you want to use Telekenesis to damage multiple opponents. You are using the hurl upgrade + magnitude upgrade(s). Period.

Everything else is flavor text.

So fighting with your lightsaber at range. Well you can use hurl + range upgrades and deal 5 + successes damage.

But if you actually want to deal your lightsaber weapon at range.. yeah that's the saber throw talent.

Um... But the text in the book says "whatever he could normally do with his hands at this power's range".

I need a better argument. Also what does Saber Throw have to do with this?

It's not a throw at all.

My move house rule essentially fixes this.

Anytime you want to use Telekenesis to damage an opponent. You are using the hurl upgrade. Period.

Anytime you want to use Telekenesis to damage multiple opponents. You are using the hurl upgrade + magnitude upgrade(s). Period.

Everything else is flavor text.

So fighting with your lightsaber at range. Well you can use hurl + range upgrades and deal 5 + successes damage.

But if you actually want to deal your lightsaber weapon at range.. yeah that's the saber throw talent.

This doesn't make sense. You wouldn't be hurling anything. It's the saber fighting alongside you but keeping your hands free, and being able to fight at more than engaged range.

The main problem this brings os that the force user could potentially engage in a duel from far away and have no chance of being hurt. You could make so that the enemy can target he saber directly to try and destroy it. The way I see it this simply means the force user will be in no danger if they are far enough from their weapon yet still controlling it through the force. If the player really wants to fight like this I would throw in a few automatic setback and upgrades due to trying to duel Soley through some mental gymnastics. Plus if the blade is ever in a saber lock where both opponents cross blades unless the PC has high discipline that saber won't have any weight behind it.

Hmmm upgrading all difficulties sounds fair to me.

So:

- Have him commit a force die for this and it'd have to stay that way as long as the saber is flying around

- To make attacks from far away, he now uses Ranged (light) maybe?
- He spends 2 strain per round while maintaining the power. Brought it up from 1 because I remembered you can recover strain spending advantage results on dice.

- Increase difficulty on ALL checks while this is happening (not just checks to hit with the saber, but also any others, because the concentration level it would take to fight like this... it'd be almost impossible to do something else at the same time)

- No parry (duh) and no reflect

Now it's taking shape. Anyone else?

One of the rules of GM'ing: will this addition make things fun for not only the player asking, but the group as a whole? If yes, proceed. If no, check for the total cheese-factor of the request and see if a compromise can be reached .

While you can use your move skill to move your lightsaber, to do so in such a way as to fight with it requires a lot more control, most thing's that are force moved in such a way as to hit tlan enemy are using the momentum of the item to cause the damage after your initial push. You do not maintain fine motor control over the object.

Its one thing to use your hands to swing a blade , but using it in combat requires more than the use of your hands. In fact. If anyone wanted to try this at my table they would be facing signifcantly upgraded chcks and the second they rolled despair the weapon would be on the ground and shortly therafter in the hands of an opponent.

Thankfully the rules have this covered, as you need an action to activate move, but then you need an action to fight with it. So I would only allow the attempt to do it this way, if they can reduce move to a maneuver , and they would have the limitations as above.

If the game has a talent in that does what a player is looking to do and its not called out in the rules elsewhere, they need the talent to do it, otherwise you are just reinventing the wheel. Look at many of the canon examples where a saber is hurled and the character has to pick up the saber afterwards

While you can use your move skill to move your lightsaber, to do so in such a way as to fight with it requires a lot more control, most thing's that are force moved in such a way as to hit tlan enemy are using the momentum of the item to cause the damage after your initial push. You do not maintain fine motor control over the object.

Its one thing to use your hands to swing a blade , but using it in combat requires more than the use of your hands. In fact. If anyone wanted to try this at my table they would be facing signifcantly upgraded chcks and the second they rolled despair the weapon would be on the ground and shortly therafter in the hands of an opponent.

Thankfully the rules have this covered, as you need an action to activate move, but then you need an action to fight with it. So I would only allow the attempt to do it this way, if they can reduce move to a maneuver , and they would have the limitations as above.

If the game has a talent in that does what a player is looking to do and its not called out in the rules elsewhere, they need the talent to do it, otherwise you are just reinventing the wheel. Look at many of the canon examples where a saber is hurled and the character has to pick up the saber afterwards

Ha! Yes can't do 2 actions. Perfect.

I think that the last upgrade is meant for manipulating things from far away, like slicing a computer without physically touching the keyboard so you don't get into a holocamera. Aslo building your lighrtsaber by assembling the pieces without hands requires it.

To duel from far away it's too much, and makes the character too strong (he cant be hit or disarmed), so i would suggest to adopt Kaosoe's houserule. It clears things up.

I've figured it out: Nowhere in the move tree is there anything that allows you to commit your dice. Done. Lol

Because then it'd need to be activated each round, so no other actions can be taken, and there's always that 7 in 12 chance of a black dot...

Well there is a sidebar (at least in the other CRB) that says that the GM can let you commit a die for long duration uses of Move, but it's kore of a suggestion, because Move is intende for short and fast moving of objects not long actions (look how quickly Luke settles C3P0 down in RotJ instead of keeping hims floaingt around until the Ewoks comply with the order)

I would allow it, then I'd have an enemy (if intelligent) just grab that saber with a successful coordination check.

I was initially looking at doing this with my first F&D PC.

I don't buy the "Force Throw is a thing, so this isn't" approach. As RAW it clearly is.

There is precedent for using a combat skill in conjunction with Force Move (the bludgeon control upgrade requires a Ranged Attack), so saying it takes 2 actions isn't a very viable way to say "No".

And while there is no option to commit a die to Force Move (it would require a Force Check every round), it would require 1 pip for the Move, plus 1 pip for every Range Band beyond Short.

I would definitely impose Setbacks for the skill test (1 per Range Band?), or even upgrades (guess what happens on a Despair?).

The big thing(s) beyond that are, in my opinion: 1. you can no longer Parry/Reflect ppl targeting your body (so of course it is incumbent upon you as GM to do this), and 2. your 'saber is far away from your "sphere of incluence". It would possibly be targeted directly, it could be snatched, it could be easily Force Moved by an enemy Force User - possibly beyond the Players Move Range, the list of vulnerabilities goes on (I think? ). Not to mention, if the PCs can do it, so can NPCs >

Again, the player has invested heavily in Move, so it's not fair to say, "No". There are plenty of negative sides to it, so just make sure you drop them on the player in a way that suddenly makes them want to use this option... sparingly.

Edcept that as per RAW there is no actual stated way to maintain the power especially in conbat,so outside your iwn turn the saver is on the ground until you activate move again. Not something I would do wity ny saber, however houserule away.

My main reason for not doing it, if it were that easy, they would have had an example of it in canon by now.

Its called Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat

Essentially yes its a thing where someone uses move to fight with a lightsaber.

1. The arguement that this makes them invulnerable is stupid.

This is because people can still walk up to the person doing it and smack them in the face. Its actually easier since unless they are using multiple lightsabers they are essentially weaponless while the lightsaber is at extreme range.

2. The arguement that they can't manipulate a lightsaber in combat using the final Control Upgrade is BS.

Its called fine manipulation its designed so that you can use move to do anything you could do with your hands. Fire a blaster, open a cell door by punching the code into the panel, take apart an X-wing and put it back together again. So yes you can use move to swing a lightsaber as if you were using it personally.

Its cool its awesome it has no significant advantages over normal fighting it actually has interesting downsides in that you can't reflect or parry attacks from if you do it from a distance past engaged, (Yes you could use multiple lightsabers, but the dual wielding/ quad wielding rules would come into play especially if each lightsaber is using a different form.

Honestly people you need to stop saying NO.

Um... But the text in the book says "whatever he could normally do with his hands at this power's range".

I need a better argument. Also what does Saber Throw have to do with this?

It's not a throw at all.

I'm the GM and I say no. It's the only argument you need. I would also point out to the player that if he were to do that he'd make himself an easy target soooooooo if he wants to risk being gunned down because his beat stick is flying off that's his business.

I didnt say no,I stipulated where I would allow it and the disadvantages.

The fine manipulation that it refers to is for flippig switches not for fighting with a weapon, im cool eith someone trying assuming they can make a move action/maneuver and a lightsaber action in the same turn. Otherwise they could move or fight with it.

Um... But the text in the book says "whatever he could normally do with his hands at this power's range".

I need a better argument. Also what does Saber Throw have to do with this?

It's not a throw at all.

I'm the GM and I say no. It's the only argument you need. I would also point out to the player that if he were to do that he'd make himself an easy target soooooooo if he wants to risk being gunned down because his beat stick is flying off that's his business.

Now the second half of this as far as I am concerned is the only thing you need. You are busy concentrating on welding you saber you are not concentrating on the rest of the fight or any potential reinforcements.

The first part however I have a problem with. If you are my GM and I come up with an idea, if the only reason you have for it not happening is "I'm the GM and I say so" then sorry you stuck as a GM!! I can understand "don't work with the feel of the game, can we alter it", but throwing up walls is just antagonistic. I have BTW specifically gone out of my way to put reasonable thing in front of GMs that I know will put there back up if they start acting like this.

At the end of the day, as a GM, the power is yours but so is the planning. Work within the story to make this kind of thing the epic fight shtick that for practicality cannot be used often, rather than bringing the ban hammer. After all a floating combat glowstick in my game would lock down the city and attract the inquisitors.

As a side note not only has one of my players thought of this but also the fact he can have 6 with a maxed out move tree! I already have an epic fight planned for him solo in an old temple. Him with 6 old Jedi guard sabers vs. a kick ass Inquisitor. The old sabers will have the crystals shatter from the strain @ the end of the fight to stop him keeping them

Heh heh. As a GM when I see stuff like this my reaction is always first convince me it is viable and if I agree be prepared for the consequences.

Yeah, syrath had the best and only point to me that you really need.

Move is a discreet action that begins and ends with that players turn. They can grab it and fight with it, but at the end of their turn it clatters to the ground, completely loose. Anyone can grab it, if they're close enough, no check. Combine that with potential defenseless-ness (except some PCs use two...), and I don't know who would ever do this. All legit ruling, no direct shutting down required.

May I offer this possible solution? There's been a lot of discussion about RAW and intent. Go with that information as you see best. I will advocate for the creative player.

As a player, I invest a LOT into my character. The prevailing wisdom has been to bump Characteristics during character creation, but after this time (or even during it), a player can invest XP into whatever the GM allows. This allowance likely includes Force Powers for those who can use 'em. Your player invested their XP into several options within the Move Force Power tree. They want to try something that we haven't seen in any canon (yet), so should earn a slight XP nod for said creativity. How is their use best adjudicated, though?

Like I wrote, others have given the crunch about this behavior with lightsabers. For the player's (and other party members, who will take their cue from this ruling) benefit, arranged for a low-threat minion encounter. Playtest the options, and discuss how well it went. Given that this is a Force-user, a simple encounter of some Imperial spy droid round the corner and begin to harass the player. Parry? Reflect? Your job as GM is to maintain a healthy, sustainable campaign. How well did the player perform? Did they get what they wanted from their investment? Did you, as GM, set a positive tone as being willing to try a player's investment? Will other players see you as fair, and on their side as a fellow gamer who wants to see new things tried, even if we could agree that those same behaviors are unbalancing in the game or otherwise not meshing well with RAW or intent?

Again, a small, low threat option of an encounter that tackles this Moving Lightsaber action may well solve your problem. Be seen as a hero, not a rules lawyer (unless you want that title), as being willing to take calculated risks for the betterment of the game and associated characters. Be resolute in your defense of disallowing or similarly restricting (i.e.: setback dice) this act in the future, against a rubric of known expectations, and how well this behavior met those established guidelines/fears.