I think just an across the board +5 points for large base ships wouldn't be out of the question, as the only one I can really think of that's truly mediocre is the Firespray. This would manage to put the hurt on both of the top meta lists, Jumpmasters and Palpshuttles both, and keep some of the old hatreds on a lower burner, such as Fat Hans and Donut Dashes, and give a bit of a kick to things like Brobots to boot.

[snipped: Counterpoints LOL]

In a game where small ships are harder to hit, easier to maneuver and don't have lower damage output

your proposal is 100% worthless.

100% worthless? Probably not. Not even Trump is that bad, arguably.

I'll admit it's probably too much a hike in increase, but with all the problems you state, each of the current big lists that show up more often than not, do tend to run a shuttle, brobots, or a jumpmaster. Alternatively, the ex king people speak of with fear, was a fat han. Maybe this particular fix is a bit out of date, and +5 is probably a bit high.

Point cost seems to be the general, over-arcing method of attempting to balance things, and a lot of arguments that come up, tend to be that something is too pricey (x-wings), or too cheap (jumpmasters) and that was what I was looking at for a 'simple' fix. Or at least, break things in one direction and go from there.

But just to throw a little hyperbole back in the mix, We'll just say your 100% wrong is 100% right, and nothing needs to be balanced at all.

In a game where small ships are harder to hit, easier to maneuver... your proposal is 100% worthless.

Harder to hit?

Um think again on that one, many large ships have just as much agility as Xwings, and almost every single one is as hard to hit as a Bwing and Ywing.

Easier to manever- depends on the shp, some of them like the IG-2000, Jumpmaster, and YT-2400 all have really good dials...if you mean due to obstacles and the large base then maybe you are right, compare those 3 dials to many early small ships (Xwing, Ywing, Z-95) and I'd take any of those dials oover those small ship dials.

His proposal isnt 100% worthless, I think a good 2 or 3 point increase on a FEW large ships would be nice. Especially the Jumpamasters, not sure about the Shadowcaster yet- way too early to tell.

But most large ships are a bargain due to amount of health and a good dial, and still a decent agility in many cases.

Large bases generally pay for their profile by being FOUR TIMES the size,as small base ships

I say generally because turret advantages basically negate the positioning drawbacks of a,larger base Ito overlapping obstacles and other ships

Advocating a blanket point increase to large bases is largely missing the point (heh) or points, which are

1) a lot of small bases just suck regardless (X) or used to suck (defender)

2) jm5k profile is actually pretty Crap (1 agi over the k? Glory glory hallelujah praise the Lord of jousting! #most obvious sarcasm)

3) the REAL problem is the combination of upgrades providing an asston of power

See any naked jm5ks tearing **** up? No,? There's a reason for that

Thinking large bases in general are the problem when NO ONE is scared of the lambda or jm5k but EXPLICITLY Palp,Torp scouts and dengaroo is just exceptionally silly

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

In a game where small ships are harder to hit, easier to maneuver... your proposal is 100% worthless.

Harder to hit?

Um think again on that one, many large ships have just as much agility as Xwings, and almost every single one is as hard to hit as a Bwing and Ywing.

Easier to manever- depends on the shp, some of them like the IG-2000, Jumpmaster, and YT-2400 all have really good dials...if you mean due to obstacles and the large base then maybe you are right, compare those 3 dials to many early small ships (Xwing, Ywing, Z-95) and I'd take any of those dials oover those small ship dials.

His proposal isnt 100% worthless, I think a good 2 or 3 point increase on a FEW large ships would be nice. Especially the Jumpamasters, not sure about the Shadowcaster yet- way too early to tell.

But most large ships are a bargain due to amount of health and a good dial, and still a decent agility in many cases.

You could have considered measuring things to scyk if you wanted it to look funnier.

good dial, but comes with a 4x size base. easier to block, easier to land on obstacles.

the fact that YT series got 1-hard turns IS a facepam, I can double on that.

the only thing people can think about is either cranking up to eleven or like in that case rendering something they dislike to dust. 3 point increase for JM and it's a useless pile'o'garbage, because that way even Dengar is costier than Han, an absolute failure of design.

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

The Phantom was totally balanced pre-nerf because a naked Phantom sucked.

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

tie fighters in their heyday

and now they only need crackshot

jm5ks, meanwhile

when you're packing a minimum 5 upgrades, you know their success has jack crap to do with their baseline capabilities

when you're packing a minimum 5 upgrades, you know their success has jack crap to do with their baseline capabilities

It has to do with the combination of baseline capabilities and an absurd upgrade bar at a relatively low cost.

The Jumpmaster 5000 is a PS9 ace capable of soloing lists, the second best support ship in the game, and the best ordinance carrier and generic in the game all in the same tournament season.

You can't see that level of success and dominance and pretend the ship has nothing to do with it.

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

Five Cartel Marauders.

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

Five Cartel Marauders.

I agree to that. Kihraxz Fighters can tear things up, especially 5 of them. I think people would be surprised if they saw it.

when you're packing a minimum 5 upgrades, you know their success has jack crap to do with their baseline capabilities

It has to do with the combination of baseline capabilities and an absurd upgrade bar at a relatively low cost.

The Jumpmaster 5000 is a PS9 ace capable of soloing lists, the second best support ship in the game, and the best ordinance carrier and generic in the game all in the same tournament season.

You can't see that level of success and dominance and pretend the ship has nothing to do with it.

I am not pretending, I'm citing fact

considering that it's the upgrades that make these builds possible

more specifically, a rather absurd amount of upgrades

torpscouts fill every upgrade slot (including mod) aprt from crew and illicit

Dengaroo fills every upgrade slot except torps on manaroo

torp scouts and dengaroo have the most upgrade cards per ship out of any competitive list in the game

the base ship doesn't suck, but you're only delluding yourself if you believe it's the reason for the runaway success of these lists rather than the combination of salvaged mech with ept and ordnance or manaroo (with zuckuss crew on dengar essential to make the offense count for anything in that list)

doing so would be like looking at palp aces and crying about how OP the alpha squadron interceptor is

or rgp if you need that ept

I am not pretending, I'm citing fact

considering that it's the upgrades that make these builds possible

more specifically, a rather absurd amount of upgrades

torp scouts and dengaroo have the most upgrade cards per ship out of any competitive list in the game

the base ship doesn't suck, but you're only delluding yourself if you believe it's the reason for the runaway success of these lists rather than the combination of salvaged mech with ept and ordnance or manaroo

By this logic, we should be seeing a lot more Kavil.

I am not pretending, I'm citing fact

considering that it's the upgrades that make these builds possible

more specifically, a rather absurd amount of upgrades

torp scouts and dengaroo have the most upgrade cards per ship out of any competitive list in the game

the base ship doesn't suck, but you're only delluding yourself if you believe it's the reason for the runaway success of these lists rather than the combination of salvaged mech with ept and ordnance or manaroo

By this logic, we should be seeing a lot more Kavil.

we should have before the r4 aggro nerf, orR4 with literally the shittiest greens in the entire game (even the lambda has more) is a case of negative synergy

besides, now we have the party bus

ie another ship that's only seen because it can stuff itself full of quality upgrades

but we're not going to argue that the YV baseline is super duper awesome, are we?

My point was really that very few ships in the game really tear stuff up when naked, so it's a weak argument to point it out with Jumpmasters. Though it seems to me that a naked Jumpmaster would do fine against most ships on account of their 2 agility, good health, BR, dial and turret.

The only naked ships capable of tearing things up are probably the Ghost and Phantom on account of their 4 attack dice, and Dengar and Corran, who can both fire more than one per round. Oh what do you know, Dengar is in a Jumpmaster...

Do we really see any naked ship tearing stuff up?

Five Cartel Marauders.

I agree to that. Kihraxz Fighters can tear things up, especially 5 of them. I think people would be surprised if they saw it.

They certainly were in the last tournament I played in.

"No upgrades? What, none? At all?!"

My point was really that very few ships in the game really tear stuff up when naked, so it's a weak argument to point it out with Jumpmasters. Though it seems to me that a naked Jumpmaster would do fine against most ships on account of their 2 agility, good health, BR, dial and turret.

except it's not because, again, the upgrades make them competitive

this isn't a tie fighter where a single crackshot is all you need to get into competitive viability because their profile is already stellar. Jumps need, at least, four gameplay defining upgrades (5 with EM torp scouts)

as for what it "seems" a naked jm5k could do...lol. good luck with that, I'm sure everyone will run screaming in terror from your barely modified tie fighter turret

? Not sure you're even reading my posts as that's twice you've missed the point.

Want to reduce Jumpmaaster spam without nerfing ordnance as a whole or making the Jumpmaster itself useless? Either delete the EPT from the Contracted Scout or make Deadeye unique. You can still run a triple-Jump ordnance list, but you have to work harder at predicting your opponent's flying.

I kinda think making all non-zero point, non-disposable EPTs unique might be a good thing for the game as a whole because it encourages more variety, but that's another thread.

What about if we instead banned Palpatine?

Then you can safely run 4 PS 4 Gammas each with 2 Homing Missiles and beat U-Boats at their own game.

If we made all EPT's unique, that does nothing to most Palp Aces squads, and does nothing to most 2 ship lists.

It deletes the Crackshot swarm from the game. It deletes the Chihuahua list from the game. The final nail in the coffin of 2 attack dice ships.

Note that I said "all non-zero point, non-disposable EPTs", so this wouldn't kill the Crack swarm.

But I do agree that an Epic-only Palpatine does not hurt the game, and in the long run probably helps. Though I think fields were more diverse with Palp and before U-boats, so I'm not willing to blame everything on Palpatine. Save some blame for Jar Jar!