Without its long-running story, L5R might have died out during the first culling of CCGs (shout-out to all my former Wyvern players here). So let's gather 'round and share our favorite story moments.

For the purpose of this discussion, I'd like to define the Arcs as follows:

Dawn of the Empire
Scorpion Clan Coup
The Clan War
(1,000 Years of Darkness)
The Hidden Emperor
The Spirit War
The Four Winds
The Search for Enlightenment
Chagatai's March
The Celestial Empress
The Destroyer War
The Ivory Expansion
The Rise of the Dark Naga
The Imperial Heir
Kanpeki's Rage (Onyx Edition stories)

If I left something out, add it in!

To start us off, I think it's hard to top the Clan War arc. Every clan had a moment to shine, and the Seven Thunders were iconic and amazing.

Some of my favorite moments: The Battle of Beiden Pass, Sukune's return, The Phoenix' fall and redemption, Toturi's Army (formation and victories), the Yoritomo's Alliance storyline, and all of it culminating in the Second Day of Thunder. And in a meta-example, the Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon.

So which was your favorite? Which stories hit home for you?

And where would you like the story to go? Hit the reset button or continue ahead? I'm good with either choice, I'm just glad the game is continuing!

Unpopular opinion here but my favorite is The Four Winds. It definitely had a bigger dose of heroic fantasy at the beginning like the story of Yasuki Hatchi and the wacky adventures of Ikoma Otemi and Matsu Kenji, and it had the best mainline character dynamics in the shape of the Four Winds plus Daigotsu. Things escalated for the worse rather well, with the Fall of Otosan Uchi and Fu Leng attacking Tengoku, and the arc had a very archetypal L5R ending with the final battle and the sacrifice of Tsudao. I don't think there is another arc that encompasses what L5R strives to be so well. Even the Clan Wars arc had all sorts of cringe-worthy moments and did a worse job at presenting the quintessential L5R story themes.

The 1000 Years of Darkness was also cool in a non-serious way with its hilarious edgyness. While not listed here, the Sapphire Throne arc was also pretty good - it is a solid second place for me, but only because it was up for a bumpy start and a somewhat anticlimactic end.

Going down the list as presented...

Dawn of the Empire- Eh, whatever. I liked it better as hazy myths shared in the "present," to be honest.

Scorpion Clan Coup- Pretty good. Poor Shoju.

The Clan War- Rose-Colored Glasses aside, this was mostly "everybody smash everybody like a gang of idiots, and look at how cool the Dragon are" until the Day of Thunder... which was okay. It paid off what was meant to be a finite story arc. One thing this arc excelled at was providing characters for each Clan to get behind- not just their Thunders, but also their major supporting players.

(1,000 Years of Darkness)-Apples and oranges different from the other arcs, because they didn't have to worry about offending a playerbase by destroying their faction utterly. This led to some pretty solid story simply because the gloves were off. Not really fair to compare it to arcs shackled to the vagaries of tournament wins.

The Hidden Emperor- We did not need another SUPER ULTIMATE EXISTENTIAL THREAT OF EXISTENTIAL THREATNESS. The post-Clan War chance to get away from major evil supernatural threats was pretty much forever fumbled by this arc, and for that, I will never forgive it.

The Spirit War- Weird. Hazy.

The Four Winds- An interesting, engaging story predicated upon Toturi being a blistering incompetent at basic dynastic management. Also the beginning of Daigotsu as the villain who never really loses- even when he does, it's just a minor setback. Got really old over the years that would follow. Also, the jumbled metrics of the game tie-in led to some truly baffling actions at the end there.

The Search for Enlightenment- Ugh. Just ugh.

Chagatai's March- Apart from the centrality of the Unicorn (literally everyone has to react to what the Unicorn are doing? And we're supposed to believe the Unicorn have a chance?) and the fact that it was clearly meant to sweep aside the remains of the Toturi to make room for the next race for the throne, I actually really enjoyed this arc because Chagatai was a human villain with human motivations. He wasn't evil because the Realm of Evil Evilled him, he was an ambitious man making a gutsy move whose sheer audacity was awe-inspiring. Sure, the payoff was kind of tepid (the Lion champ fails utterly to kill the guy, Chags manhandles him and then just gives up), but it was good fun while it lasted.

The Celestial Empress- Insanely uneven. Sometimes you get the fall of Kyuden Isawa to Yobanjin invaders getting treated as no big deal by four characters from other clans hanging out in a courtyardtrying to out-cool one another because four people won kotei. Sometimes you get the doomed quest of Isawa Mizuhiko which was basically the only story the Phoenix got to claim between rolling into Toshi Ranbo and the friggin' war with the Unicorn several real-world years later and which also happened to kick butt. Some entries in the War of Dark Fire were awful,paint by numbers fill in the kotei winner blanks, some were moving moments of inspired humanity, like the final moments of Munkjin the Yobanjin.

The Destroyer War- Went on too long. Unstoppable threats that... stop are somehow less impressive. Muddied game metrics led to muddy story results, many clans were basically absent from the story the entire time (seriously- the Crane, Mantis, Phoenix, and Dragon? No idea what they were doing for most of the arc). The enemy was almost literally faceless, and never really presented in a way to make them "cool," even to diehard Jigoku fans. The Spider white-knighting in at the end was an awful resolution to anyone who didn't think Daigotsu was the coolest thing ever. Plus, ANOTHER gigantic **** war on top of the War of Dark Fire and the Khan's March? We'd hear about these huge losses, but they meant nothing because there were always more samurai to die for the Empire. Probably one of the worst arcs.

The Ivory Expansion--------------------------\
The Rise of the Dark Naga------------------|\
The Imperial Heir------------------------------|/
Kanpeki's Rage (Onyx Edition stories)---/

These last four? Somewhat crippled. Ivory had some wonderful individual tales, but as an arc really didn't go anywhere-apart from wrapping up some unfinished business from late Samurai. And then the story team basically imploded,leaving Shawn and Spooky to carry the water more or less alone- with a predictable impact upon the quality of their work. Shawn Carman gave his all (even if I think he never could figure out what to do with some clans), but when you're shackled to an assembly line cranking out kotei fictions for some of the worst-conceived story prizes Brand ever handed down from on high, there's only so much you can do. The team got rebuilt, with Hand, Lemaire, and Murdock joining the lineup, and things were looking damned good. Wheels were starting to turn, plots were getting sanded down to bearable versions of themselves (I have many a lengthy rant about the Phoenix/Unicorn war's rollout which I will not repeat here without prompting, but suffice it to say, I was Not Happy) and they were ready to focus on characters again. Yes, everything was going to be about the Spider.*yawn* But at least the stakes were high.

Then AEG sold the property and they got the rug yanked out from under them. I think Onyx COULD have been one of the better arcs from a story perspective, but we will never know. Even the batch released recently were not Plan A- it was an effort to resolve things left dangling


"And where would you like the story to go? Hit the reset button or continue ahead?"

Continue ahead. A time jump is probably unavoidable, but a reset, while it might would clean up some garbage, would also jettison just about everything people invested in the setting over the past twenty years.I think if the dumber stuff is just allowed to settle into the ashes of history, while the overall history is respected, we'll be well off.

This may come as little surprise as the resident Daigotsu fanboy, but my top two are Four Winds and Destroyer War, since both prominently feature a) Daigotsu and b) his relationship with Fu Leng. Neither are perfect, granted. Four Winds has Daigotsu being too clever for his own good, which a lot of people will hold against him basically forever. Its also got my boy Sezaru, the second coolest shugenja with hair pigmentation challenges. Destroyer War, in particular, suffers from "OMG ANOTHER VILLAIN" syndrome but it also is the beginning of the spider, and besides ending with Daigotsu's apotheosis it has Furumaro being all sneaky, its got Shimekiri and Susumu, and just generally is kind of a spider superstar era. I would say perhaps its one of my favorites in spite of itself.

Of the arcs I've played during my favorite is definitely the Age of Exploration. That whole year was just so exciting with an awesome map that you got to see fill in as the Clans claimed territory.

There Will Be Blood was frustrating. It was too chaotic and there was too much character death, which I suppose was the point but it was narratively unsatisfying.

2014 and 2015 were both incredibly 'meh'.

One of my favorite subplots is the ongoing effort to keep the Spider from choosing a new Obsidian Champion.

I would very much prefer the story continue. Makoto needs to stay Imperial Advisor and the Imperial Navy needs to remain a thing or I will be exceedingly irritated.

Even as a Naga player, I cannot say that the Clan War was my favorite arc. Honestly, in retrospect, I find the characters flat and uninteresting, and while many of the Clans had their moment of shining awesomeness, only two REALLY stood out for me.

One was the Battle at Beiden Pass and its immediate fall out. The other was Yoritomo's ultimatum to the Seven Thunders. The rest of the coolness of the story I firmly believes comes more from the stories of the players at GenCon 1998 than the actual game storyline.

For me, the best arc was the Four Winds. Yes, it was predicated on Toturi being a bit of a dynastic idiot (but that is hardly unrealistic, as those who win thrones are not always the best at ruling) and Kaede making a big mistake. It was the arc which had literally dozens of interesting side characters, a genuinely divisive central challenge, an interesting manner of incorporating the dynastic struggle into gameplay, and it was the last arc where, really, Daigotsu was a true villain and less of the anti-villain he becomes later in life. There were genuine stakes, and no side was actually the "right" side.

For me, the story hit its peak at the end of the Four Winds, and has struggled from that point forward.

Four Winds for me as well. Most of the flaws people associate with Four Winds really have more to do with how the 4W characters turned out in Diamond and Lotus. It was the last arc before the Time of Stupid Prizes completely swamped storytelling and kept the writers from telling their stories because they were too busy accomodating asinine story prizes, design's latest brain fart (Orochi/Harriers Everywhere/etc), and ridiculous brand mandates from On High.

Four Winds was the last arc to produce large numbers of truly memorable, iconic characters for each faction - because it was the last arc able to focus on a few characters before everyone started clamoring both via forum and via (much worse) story tournament wins that let you pick which character would be affected for representation for all the family Daimyo and elemental masters and champions and imperial champions and clan schools and advanced paths and what have you.

Clan War produced iconic characters too, of course, but you get the distinct feeling that most of that was throwing mud at the wall and seeing what stuck. A lot of VERY silly thing from the Clan War era got forgotten afterward (much for the better) to focus on the good stuff in it.

This is NOT a dig on later writers. They managed to build compelling stories out of ham-fisted brand decisions and player intervention. The Khan's march was well written (anyone remember Nancy's Tea Party of Blood and Death?), and the final battle was suitably spectacular - but between increasingly bone-headed mandates from Brand (including, but not limited to, delaying the ending of the Destroyer War, the fall of the Toturi dynasty, and...oh, pretty much everything Brand ever did) and a playerbase that was stuck halfway between the "No, our clan needs to be the good guys!" mentality and "Let's go for wacky funny result, it's gonna be hilarious!" mentalities, they just didn't have the maneuvering room to pull together compelling story arcs.

In order:

1) The Four Winds - Coming at it from an RPG perspective, this was (and still is) a great period to play in. There's plenty of conflict, but it's not necessarily clan vs. clan. This leaves more opportunity for a multi-clan party to believably come together. Plus there's great opportunity for the PC's to influence the Empire, by picking an heir and advancing their cause.

2) The Clan War - I might be influenced by nostalgia, but I still think if you're introducing new players to the setting, this is the best time period to do it. It's great for inspiring clan loyalty, and it doesn't yet have the weird, eye-rolling baggage that later accumulated from tournament story prizes.

3) Chagatai's March/Scorpion Clan Coup - Unlike the previous two, I didn't choose these for their RPG setting potential. I chose them because they had something all the other storylines lacked: a believable, human villain who thought he was doing the right thing. Sure, they were overly focused on single clans and some elements seemed hamfisted in (I'm looking at you, Toturi Kurako), but I think the story as a whole would have been better with more of these types of villains interspersed among the Soul-Sucking-Ultimate-Evil-Dudes-O-Doom.

My favorite story-arc was the Clan Wars. The story of Shinsei and the Thunders gathering to fight Fu-Leng possessing the Emperor was truly an amazing moment in the story for me.

We did replay it in our RPG campaign with the PC's being quite different from the canon-ones, and the fight ending much the same way, except that the Lion Thunder was not Toturi, but a Matsu

Point is, the Clan Wars arc was about heroes rising from among the Samurai of Rokugan, and battling a Dark God. Plus the Corruption of the Phoenix elemental council and redemption, etc.

I have a soft spot for the Thousand years of Darkness storyline as well, because having a "Deluxe" set exploring an alternate storyline was an awesome idea.

I think it might be fair to say that the Clan War was the best "Epic Fantasy" L5R story arc, as it featured the climatic Good vs. Evil battle to save the world, had dramatic arcs of corruption and redemption, and ultimately came down to a battle of a small, plucky band of heroes against an unstoppable evil.

That being said, I would place the Four Winds as the best "Samurai Drama" L5R story arc, as its primary driving story was samurai vs samurai, dealt with themes of "What makes a good leader?" and "How does your choice of a leader reflect you as a person?", and while it had stakes that (literally) shook the heavens, it was ultimately decided on the small scale, not on the epic battle scale.

Again, this is just some thoughts and feedback is welcome on this! Did you like the Four Winds because of its focus on samurai drama? Did you like the Clan War because of the epic storytelling? Is it the opposite?

I think it might be fair to say that the Clan War was the best "Epic Fantasy" L5R story arc, as it featured the climatic Good vs. Evil battle to save the world, had dramatic arcs of corruption and redemption, and ultimately came down to a battle of a small, plucky band of heroes against an unstoppable evil.

That being said, I would place the Four Winds as the best "Samurai Drama" L5R story arc, as its primary driving story was samurai vs samurai, dealt with themes of "What makes a good leader?" and "How does your choice of a leader reflect you as a person?", and while it had stakes that (literally) shook the heavens, it was ultimately decided on the small scale, not on the epic battle scale.

Again, this is just some thoughts and feedback is welcome on this! Did you like the Four Winds because of its focus on samurai drama? Did you like the Clan War because of the epic storytelling? Is it the opposite?

its funny, i actually view these two arc the total opposite. i always thought of clan war as samurai drama, will all the clans jockeying around for the throne, since the actual thunders part was just kind of the icing at the end, while four winds was much more epic fantasy since it featured an actual evil wizard sending demons to murder the emperor and his evil shenanigans. the four winds even make up a pretty decent D&D party. the paladin (Tsudao), the fighter (kaneka), the wizard (sezaru), and the bard (naseru).

Four Winds, mostly because that's the arc I'm most familiar with. I'm sort of still catching up on everything that's happened since (what's this about colonies, now?)...

For me the best story arcs are the Scorpion Clan Coup and Clan Wars.

I like bits and pieces from the rest of it (loved KYD as a story aside from the rest), but from the moment they ended Clan Wars, everything got a bit . . . unsettled for me within the setting itself because . . . it's setting about people who believe in the influence of ancestors and . . . the same generation seemed to go on . . . FOREVER. I mean . . . Toturi's generation saved the Empire/Universe HOW MANY times? and yet they couldn't produce clear lines of succession?

I think I would be happier with Hidden Emperor/Spirit Wars/even Four Winds if there had been at least a generation between each of them. (And I frequently run them as separate generations when I run those times in game.)

Truthfully, if it had been Toturi's grandchildren or great-grandchildren struggling for the throne in the Four Winds with Daigotsu, I think I would have liked the whole bit a lot better, and it wouldn't have changed much of the core story, just . . . made certain characters more consistent. I just could never get past the idea that a man who was supposed to have been a strategist for the ages couldn't name an heir or restore his own family name. Having all of it happen under Toturi made his personality sort of scattered.

For me my favourite story was the shadowed tower. Pretty much a civil war taking place within a clan without the knowledge of most of the empire, very cloak and dagger and some dire consequences. The story starred some central scorpion characters, Yudoka, Koji, kaukatsu (through his son ogura), kamann, furiyari, Sunetra and Yojiro!

Also has some story with traitor's grove and all the brutal punishment that occurs there.

EDIT: Just read Azimiko's post. For me Shadowed Tower felt more like the clan war era stories than most of the gold - diamond story arc - Completely agree with your points.

I think I would be happier with Hidden Emperor/Spirit Wars/even Four Winds if there had been at least a generation between each of them. (And I frequently run them as separate generations when I run those times in game.)

Truthfully, if it had been Toturi's grandchildren or great-grandchildren struggling for the throne in the Four Winds with Daigotsu, I think I would have liked the whole bit a lot better, and it wouldn't have changed much of the core story, just . . . made certain characters more consistent. I just could never get past the idea that a man who was supposed to have been a strategist for the ages couldn't name an heir or restore his own family name. Having all of it happen under Toturi made his personality sort of scattered.

Although I agree with you from a story perspective, it makes sense for AEG to have done it the way it did. Holding characters over multiple story arcs helped fans invest in the characters. Plus bringing an old favorite out of retirement for a climactic scene was an almost surefire way to get fan acclaim. And on a more cynical note, it also kept people buying booster packs hoping to get the experienced version of their favorite character.

On the other hand, wiping the slate clean for each story arc would have greatly reduced the continuity snarl that ended up developing, which in turn would have made it easier for new players to get into the setting. I don't think there really is a right answer for this one.

A few more judicious timeskips would have made the Toturi feel like an actual dynasty, instead of a weird interregnum... ah well.

I will say, however, that investment in characters is what was missing from some of the rougher arcs near the end of AEG's run- quick, name a Phoenix Clan character with mass support from the Ivory arc. Tell me your favorite Mantis from the Desroyer War (it'll probably be somebody from Samurai edition or so). I would rather havesome loopy, convoluted, "wait, the Empire is threatened AGAIN?!" plot than not have any characters to root for.

Ideally,of course, we have good plots and good characters, but if choices have to be made...

To me, Spirit Wars felt like it arose organically from the end of Hidden Emperor. I wish they'd done that more often. Just making each threat plausibly related to the last one would help a lot with that "saving the world multiple times in one generation" wallbanger.

Then, after a series of 3 or so interrelated story arcs, jump forward in time a couple of generations to allow a new story to develop, and to give new players a good point to get on.

A few more judicious timeskips would have made the Toturi feel like an actual dynasty, instead of a weird interregnum... ah well.

I will say, however, that investment in characters is what was missing from some of the rougher arcs near the end of AEG's run- quick, name a Phoenix Clan character with mass support from the Ivory arc. Tell me your favorite Mantis from the Desroyer War (it'll probably be somebody from Samurai edition or so). I would rather havesome loopy, convoluted, "wait, the Empire is threatened AGAIN?!" plot than not have any characters to root for.

Ideally,of course, we have good plots and good characters, but if choices have to be made..

About the Toturi: Exactly.

About the Phoenix: Can I pick Handan? For the Mantis? Uh . . . from Destroyer but not from earlier editions? I was going to go with Utemaro (who was one of only like three Mantis to make even a brief appearance in the Destroyer Wars not attached to the Gempukku crew disaster), and only if you count the story where he gets the Treasurer gig, but he was around forever, just not much in Destroyer. How about . . . I get back to you on that one.

But the argument about needing time to get attached to a character does not really hold true when you look at folks who were attached to Shoju or Yoritomo or Kisada (BiG Bear not Little Bear) or even Toturi. Most of the "original" characters had very little story before folks got attached, and, in fact, the longer those characters stayed around, the more annoying and less appealing most of them got.

More time skips would have been good.

Spirit Wars was a Time Skip unto itself dealing with the aftermath of Hidden Emperor ; that was fine. But after that...way too much happening way too quickly. Move the Bloodspeaker uprising to the end of Naseru's reign ; then the search for enlightenment in the reign of his heir, and the khan's coup two more generations down the line.

Although I agree with you from a story perspective, it makes sense for AEG to have done it the way it did. Holding characters over multiple story arcs helped fans invest in the characters. Plus bringing an old favorite out of retirement for a climactic scene was an almost surefire way to get fan acclaim. And on a more cynical note, it also kept people buying booster packs hoping to get the experienced version of their favorite character.

On the other hand, wiping the slate clean for each story arc would have greatly reduced the continuity snarl that ended up developing, which in turn would have made it easier for new players to get into the setting. I don't think there really is a right answer for this one.

There's also something to be said about characters overstaying their welcome, even when popular among their clans' players. Daigotsu and Yoritomo were both major players in the story, to the point where they essentially eclipsed the rest of their clans outright, and in Daigotsu's case became probably the most divisive character in the game's history.

I'm of a mind we could do two arcs with the bulk of characters, have a couple survivors (i.e. I'd have loved to see Kaukatsu retired as a monk, or see the clan champs as children as we'd done some before Ivory), and one or two clan members who are essentially immortal and always lurking in the background for continuity.

With that in mind, I'd say the much-maligned Hidden Emperor arc was probably the most balanced over all. While it didn't have the overall cool moments that made up the Day of Thunder, it definitely put forward efforts for every clan to matter in the story. Sadly, it was a mix of Rolling Thunder and wildly imbalanced mechanics that undermined that. OTOH, it had definite conclusions for the bulk of the big players left over from Clan Wars, a greater focus on character arcs that finished rather than simply meandering away or getting cut off, and left enough plot hooks to ensure that everyone would still have some conflict the next arc.