I'm trying to theory craft a ketsu build. Same as above with VI, dengar, EU, shadow caster title.

The big problem is what to pair with. ( shadow caster almost feels like dengar before manaroo came along) The SC won't last for long so you need something powerful/ consistent punching at the same time with it. I'm currently thinking zuckuss with a pirate blocker. Potential for deadly "alpha" strikes at ps 9.

I don't think you're ever going to get a Shadowcaster to seem solid in a list just by looking at it

unlike Dengar, Igs or scouts etc., it's simply not an impressive block of stats for its cost

you gotta be tricksy, ie leverage the flexibility of the dial, the mobile arc, the double illicits and pilot abilities (which can be used even in base to base; no dice trade necessary ), to win

which is why I think double casters (ketsu and ventress) might actually have legs to stand on

VI and an initiative bid (and engine) means you arent vulnerable to arcdodgers with ketsu. You give them initiative, then have boost if needed to get the right range. And arcdodgers absolutely do t want to see the tractor from ketsu. Especially when its combined with latts razzi so your stealth device soontir or cloaked phantom now has 2 agility. And if ketsu hits, latts is attacking against -2 agility as well

Which works for... a turn... if they don't see it coming. You're giving up PTL which is largely what makes the EU upgrade worth it. Plus even assuming it works you're now firing at them with unmodified dice. I'm not saying Ketsu is bad, she's not. Just that locking your arc forward and trying to get into range 1 in an effort to use your ability makes you predictable and easier to arcdodge than Ventress

Meh on the Latts combo, it's nifty but in practice your bus wants Zuckuss and if that's the case it's hard to get TLs after the stress starts piling in and even if you do get one via Bossk (not the ideal crew setup to begin with) then that TL will likely do far more good rerolling your own dice with Zuckuss backing them up then removing a single potential evade for someone else.

eh...between a rotating 180 coverage and TWO illicit slots, one of which can be a double-stress debris you can drop before higher PS activates , all on top of your awesome pilot ability , I'd think aces would give you the least trouble out of anything in the game

not to mention all Ketsu has to do to ruin an ace's **** is block it

that's it

block it, it's in your arcs, roll em out of base 2 base and enjoy Inqy ala carte

The block absolutely works beautifully the first couple of times you play against someone with a Shadowcaster. People underestimate the speed, especially the PTL/EU version and don't realize what kind of crapstorm they're in if they do bump. But after you do it to people a couple of times they start seeing it coming and you can no longer rely on it. Sure you can play will I/won't I mind games and surprise them with a 1 bank but then they can often just reactively boost/barrel roll right out of your, now 90 forward only, arc like you're any other ship.

I love how you guys had opposite reactions in terms of move order. One of you wants to move last so you don't get dodged and the other wants to move first to leverage the block. Again, Ketsu isn't bad. She's just not as good as Ventress because her trick while cool and great when it works doesn't work reliably once you're playing an opponent that's savvy to it. I'll confess to not using the cargo drops yet, but I think while that certainly improves the matchup vs. aces it improves it for all Lancers, and potentially Ventress more since she can face her turret to the rear and make it a triple stress sandwich.

mix blocks with debris, you win either way

large base boosts, even predicted, are just incredibly difficult to avoid. the distance covered is absolutely ridiculous

but I agree Ventress is overall more useful (and far easier to enable) than ketsu, mainly due to her only requiring the mobile arc for her ability rather than both arcs

would only fly ketsu if flying both lancers

VI and an initiative bid (and engine) means you arent vulnerable to arcdodgers with ketsu. You give them initiative, then have boost if needed to get the right range. And arcdodgers absolutely do t want to see the tractor from ketsu. Especially when its combined with latts razzi so your stealth device soontir or cloaked phantom now has 2 agility. And if ketsu hits, latts is attacking against -2 agility as well

Which works for... a turn... if they don't see it coming. You're giving up PTL which is largely what makes the EU upgrade worth it. Plus even assuming it works you're now firing at them with unmodified dice. I'm not saying Ketsu is bad, she's not. Just that locking your arc forward and trying to get into range 1 in an effort to use your ability makes you predictable and easier to arcdodge than Ventress

Meh on the Latts combo, it's nifty but in practice your bus wants Zuckuss and if that's the case it's hard to get TLs after the stress starts piling in and even if you do get one via Bossk (not the ideal crew setup to begin with) then that TL will likely do far more good rerolling your own dice with Zuckuss backing them up then removing a single potential evade for someone else.

eh...between a rotating 180 coverage and TWO illicit slots, one of which can be a double-stress debris you can drop before higher PS activates , all on top of your awesome pilot ability , I'd think aces would give you the least trouble out of anything in the game

not to mention all Ketsu has to do to ruin an ace's **** is block it

that's it

block it, it's in your arcs, roll em out of base 2 base and enjoy Inqy ala carte

The block absolutely works beautifully the first couple of times you play against someone with a Shadowcaster. People underestimate the speed, especially the PTL/EU version and don't realize what kind of crapstorm they're in if they do bump. But after you do it to people a couple of times they start seeing it coming and you can no longer rely on it. Sure you can play will I/won't I mind games and surprise them with a 1 bank but then they can often just reactively boost/barrel roll right out of your, now 90 forward only, arc like you're any other ship.

I love how you guys had opposite reactions in terms of move order. One of you wants to move last so you don't get dodged and the other wants to move first to leverage the block. Again, Ketsu isn't bad. She's just not as good as Ventress because her trick while cool and great when it works doesn't work reliably once you're playing an opponent that's savvy to it. I'll confess to not using the cargo drops yet, but I think while that certainly improves the matchup vs. aces it improves it for all Lancers, and potentially Ventress more since she can face her turret to the rear and make it a triple stress sandwich.

I gave ketsu dengar crew, so shes never completely unmodified. And if you can predict maneuvers right you might be able to get away sith not boosting sometimes. And latts doesnt need zuckuss if she's shooting at ships with 2 tractor tokens. They barely have any evade dice to use zuckuss on. If they manage to evade your first shot, you shoot back with tl/gunner, and can spend the tl to reduce them by ANOTHER agility and have focus for the shot (i run latts with bossk/gunner/k4).

Alsoo, ventriss, while double stressing aces is good, is worthless against dengaroo who doesnt care about the stress. Or any aces who manage to avoid range 1-2 in the mobile arc and range 2 of the primary. Ketsu can get the initiative bid to avoid being arcdodged, and if she gets dengar at range 1, he's defending at 0 agility. Both probably get wrecked by uboats.

Alsoo, ventriss, while double stressing aces is good, is worthless against dengaroo who doesnt care about the stress. Or any aces who manage to avoid range 1-2 in the mobile arc and range 2 of the primary. Ketsu can get the initiative bid to avoid being arcdodged, and if she gets dengar at range 1, he's defending at 0 agility. Both probably get wrecked by uboats.

Hardly!

If you are using Ventress to stress Dengar, then you're doing it wrong! Ventress stressing Manaroo, however.....now tell me how worthless she is in that matchup!

Not to mention, it would be utterly foolish to field Ventress without Slicer Tools. And for 1 point, its dealing as much damage on Dengar as his R5-P8 is dealing back (and that cost him 3 points!).

Last point: not at all easy to arc-dodge the side arc! Its huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge!

So Ive been experimenting with some of the lists in this thread. I find the Asajj + 2 TLT to be good against most lists, and especially good against dengaroo. Manaroo is easily hunted down and taken out, and then dengar falls down pretty easy. Against a good palp aces player though, they always move after asajj and can easily get out of that mobile arc. Autothrusters makes the TLTs not as effective as well. Triple scouts or 2 scouts plus something is also a very tough matchup. Asajj or the TLTs are evaporated quickly.

Ive played this list 9 times on vassal against randos and locally, 9-0 thus far. I think it is pretty good. Its comes from a top 4 US nationals list, that was Bossk/Tel. But, replacing Tel for Assaj. Bossk has one of the most powerful alpha strikes with concussion missiles, dengar, chips and the bossk ability. You are also looking to drop AGI by one on your alpha strike target. Almost always throwing down 5 hits.

Mid game, gunner on asajj is awesome. You get to tractor quite a lot of ships, or at least burn down their tokens to set up Bossk for a monster smack down.

End game, bossk draws so much aggro, he is never around. I find assaj to be a great end game ship though. Boosting around, or doing focus/evade every turn.

Here it my current iteration:

ASAJJ BOSSK

100 points

PILOTS

Asajj Ventress (53)
Lancer-class Pursuit Craft (37), Push the Limit (3), Gunner (5), Black Market Slicer Tools (1), Shadow Caster (3), Engine Upgrade (4)

Bossk (47)
YV-666 (35), Adaptability (0), “Mangler” Cannon (4), Concussion Missiles (4), Zuckuss (1), Dengar (3), Guidance Chips (0)

I gave ketsu dengar crew, so shes never completely unmodified. And if you can predict maneuvers right you might be able to get away sith not boosting sometimes. And latts doesnt need zuckuss if she's shooting at ships with 2 tractor tokens. They barely have any evade dice to use zuckuss on. If they manage to evade your first shot, you shoot back with tl/gunner, and can spend the tl to reduce them by ANOTHER agility and have focus for the shot (i run latts with bossk/gunner/k4).

A lot of ifs there. If that first encounter doesn't get them into range 1 of Ketsu then you're basically screwed and not hitting anything this turn. Even if you do a token stacked ace with palp backup probably still isn't going to get hit rolling only 2 dice which means you don't get the 2nd tractor token. If it works, and that's a big if, then it wrecks. But if it doesn't then you likely whiff and it's much harder to setup the overlapping fields of fire and potential range one after the initial encounter

Alsoo, ventriss, while double stressing aces is good, is worthless against dengaroo who doesnt care about the stress. Or any aces who manage to avoid range 1-2 in the mobile arc and range 2 of the primary. Ketsu can get the initiative bid to avoid being arcdodged, and if she gets dengar at range 1, he's defending at 0 agility. Both probably get wrecked by uboats.

Dengar doesn't but Manaroo does, a lot. Once you get Manaroo in arc then she can't PTL and has to do a highly predictable green every turn. Since she can't PTL then she can't run away and still feed Dengar tokens. So now she has the choice of getting wrecked from being easy to catch and tokenless or Dengar is left tokenless which neuters the majority of the lists offense. Either way it largely breaks the synergy. The issue is usually getting to her in the first place since most of the games other stress givers are either slow (R3-A2 Y) or easy to dodge (Tactician) but with the Lancers dial and mobile arc that's not too hard. Ventress is fairly good against Dengaroo, though hardly a silver bullet.

Anyways, you clearly like your list. We have different opinions about it but, more power to you, I hope you do well with it.

I gave ketsu dengar crew, so shes never completely unmodified. And if you can predict maneuvers right you might be able to get away sith not boosting sometimes. And latts doesnt need zuckuss if she's shooting at ships with 2 tractor tokens. They barely have any evade dice to use zuckuss on. If they manage to evade your first shot, you shoot back with tl/gunner, and can spend the tl to reduce them by ANOTHER agility and have focus for the shot (i run latts with bossk/gunner/k4).

A lot of ifs there. If that first encounter doesn't get them into range 1 of Ketsu then you're basically screwed and not hitting anything this turn. Even if you do a token stacked ace with palp backup probably still isn't going to get hit rolling only 2 dice which means you don't get the 2nd tractor token. If it works, and that's a big if, then it wrecks. But if it doesn't then you likely whiff and it's much harder to setup the overlapping fields of fire and potential range one after the initial encounter

Alsoo, ventriss, while double stressing aces is good, is worthless against dengaroo who doesnt care about the stress. Or any aces who manage to avoid range 1-2 in the mobile arc and range 2 of the primary. Ketsu can get the initiative bid to avoid being arcdodged, and if she gets dengar at range 1, he's defending at 0 agility. Both probably get wrecked by uboats.

Dengar doesn't but Manaroo does, a lot. Once you get Manaroo in arc then she can't PTL and has to do a highly predictable green every turn. Since she can't PTL then she can't run away and still feed Dengar tokens. So now she has the choice of getting wrecked from being easy to catch and tokenless or Dengar is left tokenless which neuters the majority of the lists offense. Either way it largely breaks the synergy. The issue is usually getting to her in the first place since most of the games other stress givers are either slow (R3-A2 Y) or easy to dodge (Tactician) but with the Lancers dial and mobile arc that's not too hard. Ventress is fairly good against Dengaroo, though hardly a silver bullet.

Anyways, you clearly like your list. We have different opinions about it but, more power to you, I hope you do well with it.

Alsoo, ventriss, while double stressing aces is good, is worthless against dengaroo who doesnt care about the stress. Or any aces who manage to avoid range 1-2 in the mobile arc and range 2 of the primary. Ketsu can get the initiative bid to avoid being arcdodged, and if she gets dengar at range 1, he's defending at 0 agility. Both probably get wrecked by uboats.

Hardly!

If you are using Ventress to stress Dengar, then you're doing it wrong! Ventress stressing Manaroo, however.....now tell me how worthless she is in that matchup!

Not to mention, it would be utterly foolish to field Ventress without Slicer Tools. And for 1 point, its dealing as much damage on Dengar as his R5-P8 is dealing back (and that cost him 3 points!).

Last point: not at all easy to arc-dodge the side arc! Its huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge!

How are you planning to get manaroo in range 1-2 to stress her? She's just as fast as ventriss. Potentially faster if you forgo fovus for a round in an emergency to both boost and BR. And while you chase her dengar chews you up.

if I cant get anyone at range 1, I just focus and have focus + target lock for my attack and Latts can make the target -1 agility. Then latts gets two tries herself to hit the target. And i still havw the same option anyone does against palp aces to kill palp first.

Regarding slicer tools, sure its cheaper than r5p8, but its also using an action so you cant double modify your shots. Or modify and move arc or boost.

Ive only flown my list once so far, so it clearly needs a lot more testing to see how viable itll actually be, but that ine game was against whisper, inquisitor and omega leader, and I got all 3 at range 1 to trigger ketsus ability and kill that ship that round.

How are you planning to get manaroo in range 1-2 to stress her? She's just as fast as ventriss. Potentially faster if you forgo fovus for a round in an emergency to both boost and BR. And while you chase her dengar chews you up.

you're just as fast on a large base (large ass target, positions limited by obstacles), except you have higher PS and range 1-2 to work with. catching a large base in a large base arc at range 1-2 isn't terribly complicated when you have higher PS and boost

really, if you can't catch her, you just don't deserve to win

How are you planning to get manaroo in range 1-2 to stress her? She's just as fast as ventriss. Potentially faster if you forgo fovus for a round in an emergency to both boost and BR. And while you chase her dengar chews you up.

you're just as fast on a large base (large ass target, positions limited by obstacles), except you have higher PS and range 1-2 to work with. catching a large base in a large base arc at range 1-2 isn't terribly complicated when you have higher PS and boost

really, if you can't catch her, you just don't deserve to win

It's not like manaroo is going to be heading into the fight int he first place for you to get a bead on her. Even if you set up straight across, she can hurt turn and boost/barrel roll for distance. Then you're chasing her fron distance and she can just keep moving fast and boosting. Higher ps doesn't help if she just flies max speed and has boost herself. And again, the whole time you're trying to pin down manaroo to stress her, she's passing dengar focuses to blast you with.

How are you planning to get manaroo in range 1-2 to stress her? She's just as fast as ventriss. Potentially faster if you forgo fovus for a round in an emergency to both boost and BR. And while you chase her dengar chews you up.

you're just as fast on a large base (large ass target, positions limited by obstacles), except you have higher PS and range 1-2 to work with. catching a large base in a large base arc at range 1-2 isn't terribly complicated when you have higher PS and boost

really, if you can't catch her, you just don't deserve to win

It's not like manaroo is going to be heading into the fight int he first place for you to get a bead on her. Even if you set up straight across, she can hurt turn and boost/barrel roll for distance. Then you're chasing her fron distance and she can just keep moving fast and boosting. Higher ps doesn't help if she just flies max speed and has boost herself. And again, the whole time you're trying to pin down manaroo to stress her, she's passing dengar focuses to blast you with.

table space is limited, you're just as fast; you're higher ps

it really won't be hard

not to mention dengar without doubletap is a sad sad affair

How are you planning to get manaroo in range 1-2 to stress her? She's just as fast as ventriss. Potentially faster if you forgo fovus for a round in an emergency to both boost and BR. And while you chase her dengar chews you up.

you're just as fast on a large base (large ass target, positions limited by obstacles), except you have higher PS and range 1-2 to work with. catching a large base in a large base arc at range 1-2 isn't terribly complicated when you have higher PS and boost

really, if you can't catch her, you just don't deserve to win

It's not like manaroo is going to be heading into the fight int he first place for you to get a bead on her. Even if you set up straight across, she can hurt turn and boost/barrel roll for distance. Then you're chasing her fron distance and she can just keep moving fast and boosting. Higher ps doesn't help if she just flies max speed and has boost herself. And again, the whole time you're trying to pin down manaroo to stress her, she's passing dengar focuses to blast you with.

table space is limited, you're just as fast; you're higher ps

it really won't be hard

not to mention dengar without doubletap is a sad sad affair

Still better offense than assajj will be while she's trying to catch manaroo...

And the limited table space can work in manaroo's favor. If you were just flying in a straight line the lancer could catch her with the 5 straight vs manaroo's 4, but when you have to turn, they both have 3 bank + boost. Still don't see how higher PS is helping you here. It's not like manaroo's gonna just say "hmm, I don't know where he's going so I won't bother boosting". If you're anywhere near her she just boost as far away as possible. So you know where she ended, doesn't really help if it doesn't change anything...

Every action Manaroo does to reposition is one less token for Dengar... It is a telegraphed approach, but there isn't much the Dengaroo player can do about it, especially because you can do a split deployment and force an engagement quickly.

All dengar needs is a focus

Tabled Dengar during the first engagement with a Ketsu list the other night. He simply ran out of dice to stop all the hell coming at him.

Range 1 Ketsu gives him a TB. With VI, she shot and gave him another TB token. Now with 0 agility, he has to dodge a range 1 Fenn and clusters from N'dru. *poof*

I played against someone using Asajj and Latts Razzi crew.

My Inquisitor got double stressed from PtL and Asajj, so my opponent would use Latts and take a stress off of me. Lol, be my guest.

Tabled Dengar during the first engagement with a Ketsu list the other night. He simply ran out of dice to stop all the hell coming at him.

Range 1 Ketsu gives him a TB. With VI, she shot and gave him another TB token. Now with 0 agility, he has to dodge a range 1 Fenn and clusters from N'dru. *poof*

For that to happen in the opening round you need a Dengar that lets you get into range 1 of him with Ketsu. Even if hemoves first, it doesn't take alk that much to prevent that from happening, rule of 11 and the like.

Tabled Dengar during the first engagement with a Ketsu list the other night. He simply ran out of dice to stop all the hell coming at him.

Range 1 Ketsu gives him a TB. With VI, she shot and gave him another TB token. Now with 0 agility, he has to dodge a range 1 Fenn and clusters from N'dru. *poof*

For that to happen in the opening round you need a Dengar that lets you get into range 1 of him with Ketsu. Even if hemoves first, it doesn't take alk that much to prevent that from happening, rule of 11 and the like.

First engagement does not have to be the same thing as opening round. Sure you should be able to use rule of 11 to guarantee no range 1 for the first combat if you're set up straight across from each other, but if you set up opposite corners or something and maneuvered around befor eyou got to combat, it's entirely possible

Tabled Dengar during the first engagement with a Ketsu list the other night. He simply ran out of dice to stop all the hell coming at him.

Range 1 Ketsu gives him a TB. With VI, she shot and gave him another TB token. Now with 0 agility, he has to dodge a range 1 Fenn and clusters from N'dru. *poof*

For that to happen in the opening round you need a Dengar that lets you get into range 1 of him with Ketsu. Even if hemoves first, it doesn't take alk that much to prevent that from happening, rule of 11 and the like.

First engagement does not have to be the same thing as opening round. Sure you should be able to use rule of 11 to guarantee no range 1 for the first combat if you're set up straight across from each other, but if you set up opposite corners or something and maneuvered around befor eyou got to combat, it's entirely possible

EDIT: you need to outplay him even more to get the other ships into range 1 as well.

Used Party Bus with Ketsu yesterday...black sun soldier as well and it was terrifying. 3-0 and was never really threatened. Those TB tokens and moving people around is just nasty. Through Whisper on a rock and then Party Bus finished the job. I really really enjoy flying the Shadowcaster. I thought it would be dumb when I first seen it, but it is actually really cool. List was:

98 points

Ketsu Onyo (50)
Lancer-class Pursuit Craft (38), Veteran Instincts (1), K4 Security Droid (3), Black Market Slicer Tools (1), Glitterstim (2), Shadow Caster (3), Gyroscopic Targeting (2)

Trandoshan Slaver (34)
YV-666 (29), 4-LOM (1), Dengar (3), Zuckuss (1)

Black Sun Soldier (14)
Z-95 Headhunter (13), Black Market Slicer Tools (1)

So just wanted to share a story, but a few things to mention first.

1- Honestly, leaving Corran double stressed was probably the better play, and

2- I obviously misplayed by PTLing with Corran

So the scenario- Corran vs Asajj. I PTL to get focus evade and had TL already, range 1. He uses Asajj ability to double stress me. I fire. 3 hits after all mods. Defense roll is 2 natural evades, and he adds another with Latts Razi crew. 3 hits fully evaded. Round continues on, stuff happens. I Double tap. Get 4 hits this time. He rolls 2 natural evades again, uses Latts for another evade, and spends evade token.

7 of 8 possible hits rolled, all evaded by a 2 agility ship. Yes, he had to get extremely lucky with dice for that to happen, but still, it happened.

_________________

Anyways, anyone tried flying 3 of the generics? Thinking about trying it out on vassal tonight.

I'm looking forward to this ship, but not sure when I'll actually get it. I'm out for at least a month with surgery.

I'm looking forward to this ship, but not sure when I'll actually get it. I'm out for at least a month with surgery.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you have a good recovery!