Hi All,

As you're probably all aware, in the current tournament regulations (as far back as I can remember), third party dice have been banned from FFG events. Presumably, this is on the basis that the dice can be rigged in some way, which is fair enough. That said, FFG's own dice are notorious for being extremely poor-quality, riddled with bubbles, and generally not random - the point being that by testing FFG dice sufficiently, you could effectively choose a set of dice which are accidentally rigged towards hits/crits/evades, but which are completely tournament legal, without actually tampering with the dice in any way. Compared to taking (for example) a set of clear Tritex dice which demonstrably have no bubbles and will therefore roll with near-perfect randomness, third party seems much more fair to me.

As an example - a friend of mine (who I won't name, though he might weigh in, I have no idea) has a set of this year's (2016) regional dice that he refuses to use on the basis that the red dice are HILARIOUSLY biased towards crits - after rolling them 100 times, he got 3 natural crits 23(iirc) times (statistically speaking, this should happen approximately 0.2 times per 100 rolls).

My question is this - would it not be better to require that both players use the same set of dice (by mutual agreement, of course), regardless of whether those dice are third-party or FFG? This would eliminate the problem of dice-rigging, as who wants to rig their dice to be awesome when their opponent gets the same advantage? I get that FFG want to protect their own dice set sales, but at the same time we as consumers should expect a certain standard of manufacturing that frankly isn't being met.

$40 Retail game and you're complaining over "standard of manufacturing?"

It's plastic space ships. Start requiring tournament quality dice and push the game up another $10-15 bucks and push out little guys

Also - I personally don't want people handling my dice and don't like the idea of passing back and forth during a game.

My question is this - would it not be better to require that both players use the same set of dice (by mutual agreement, of course), regardless of whether those dice are third-party or FFG? This would eliminate the problem of dice-rigging, as who wants to rig their dice to be awesome when their opponent gets the same advantage? I get that FFG want to protect their own dice set sales, but at the same time we as consumers should expect a certain standard of manufacturing that frankly isn't being met.

If it worries you that much, you can already request to share dice during each tournament round as per the Tournament Regulations. No reason to make it mandatory for those who aren't worried about it.

Someone on the forums tested a bunch of FFG dice with an automated die roller.

IIRC, he found no statistical anomalies.

Everyone seems to have that one die or set of dice that they think is biased. I think it's all in their heads.

Someone on the forums tested a bunch of FFG dice with an automated die roller.

IIRC, he found no statistical anomalies.

Everyone seems to have that one die or set of dice that they think is biased. I think it's all in their heads.

I think you're right there. Although I know mine are strong with the Dark Side.

Or should it be Blank Side?

$40 Retail game and you're complaining over "standard of manufacturing?"

It's plastic space ships. Start requiring tournament quality dice and push the game up another $10-15 bucks and push out little guys

Also - I personally don't want people handling my dice and don't like the idea of passing back and forth during a game.

You can not like it all you want, but if someone asks to share dice I'm pretty sure you can't refuse as it is, so it's moot. Plus, you could always share their dice and save yours from the filthy paws of others.

That said, FFG's own dice are notorious for being extremely poor-quality, riddled with bubbles, and generally not random - the point being that by testing FFG dice sufficiently, you could effectively choose a set of dice which are accidentally rigged towards hits/crits/evades, but which are completely tournament legal, without actually tampering with the dice in any way.

Please supply your data to support your claim that FFG's dice are 'generally not random'.

Funny, I've participated in several regional championships (including one after the new regulations) as well as one of the SoS tournaments and I've seen many people play with 3rd party dice. Nobody seemed to mind. In one case the 3rd party dice were used in the final - still no reaction from anyone. So much for the enforcement of the rules.

I've recently started using 3rd party dice myself because they simply look nicer. The only reaction I ever got was "they look so nice" . At some point I might meet a player that will mind. In that case I suppose we'll just play with his dice (or we'll both play with mine - after all, they look better).

That said, FFG's own dice are notorious for being extremely poor-quality, riddled with bubbles, and generally not random - the point being that by testing FFG dice sufficiently, you could effectively choose a set of dice which are accidentally rigged towards hits/crits/evades, but which are completely tournament legal, without actually tampering with the dice in any way.

Please supply your data to support your claim that FFG's dice are 'generally not random'.

Ok, look at any of the non-opaque dice FFG have produced for X-wing. See the bubbles? They're making the dice less random, one way or another, as the weight of the dice is unevenly distributed.

The bubble will not have a big effect on the randomness but there is still one. As an example, with money on the line, Casino would be blamed if their dice had bubble in them.

For the opaque dice, they are manifactured using small bead that are melted, often with cheap dice, they are not heated enough, this mean the weight is not properly distributed.

Yes on the long run, we may talk about only a 5% difference, but this is enough to make ruling out third party dice weird when yours are far from perfect.

That said, FFG's own dice are notorious for being extremely poor-quality, riddled with bubbles, and generally not random - the point being that by testing FFG dice sufficiently, you could effectively choose a set of dice which are accidentally rigged towards hits/crits/evades, but which are completely tournament legal, without actually tampering with the dice in any way.

Please supply your data to support your claim that FFG's dice are 'generally not random'.

Go look at these wonderfull scan of X-Wing dice:

Still no data. There's never any data. Just feelings and bubbles...

Still no data. There's never any data. Just feelings and bubbles...

You don't need data, loading dice is adding weight to one side. And bubble change exactly that, the weight. If you ask for data, you clearly don't know the subject of loaded dice.

If you ask for data, you clearly don't know the subject of loaded dice.

You know, expect we do actually have data. Someone tested their dice using a robot, camera and excel. He showed that all of his dice were actually completely within the expected value of randomness.

Now seeing this is the rules form... Here's what the tournament rules say.

Before a tournament round begins, any player may request that a single range ruler, set of maneuver templates, and/or each other’s dice be shared for the duration of the round.

It also says this...

Players may use only official Star Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game components in tournament play. Proxies of cards and ship models cannot be used. Determining the legality of third-party tokens, range rulers, and movement templates is the marshal’s responsibility.

So 3rd party dice are not legal and FFG has no real reason to change their stance on it, since they sell legal dice. Since you can request that both sides use the same set of dice, then that removes the advantage of unbalanced dice.

Maybe you think that a Robot rolling even a thousand time is enough to see behavior in dice, but I can garantee you that the FFG dice would not be legal for casino play. Bubble in dice are not acceptable. Yes, for a table top game where the 5% bias it may give is not enough to worry.

But that does not mean their dice are good or properly manufactured...

FFG dice are cheap dice, and yes, it is possible that some of them give biased result.

Maybe you think that a Robot rolling even a thousand time is enough to see behavior in dice

It was more like 25,000 times for each dice. So the data he got is pretty rock solid. The core set dice he had were in fact as random as expected.

But again there are already rules in place to deal with unbalanced dice.

Are you talking about that:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/135023-dice-roller-3000/

He is far from 25k per dice.

And two of his dice are seen as unfair.

And yet, bubbled dice would still not be legal for gambling.

That said, FFG's own dice are notorious for being extremely poor-quality, riddled with bubbles, and generally not random - the point being that by testing FFG dice sufficiently, you could effectively choose a set of dice which are accidentally rigged towards hits/crits/evades, but which are completely tournament legal, without actually tampering with the dice in any way.

Please supply your data to support your claim that FFG's dice are 'generally not random'.

He already told you about this guy he knows that did this one experiment this one time. Sorta. What more do you need?

And yet, bubbled dice would still not be legal for gambling.

It's a game with plastic spaceship toys. Not the high roller table in Las bloody Vegas.

People need to chill out about this game.

I chill out, I never said we should not use these dice. I just said they are far from perfect. I said bubble have an impact even if this is a negligible one. I also said their dice are cheap, and banning third party dice are weird when yours are not even that good in the first place...

If someone really want to cheat, this is not hard at all to rig a dice, so having third party dice legal would not suddently open the flood gate of cheat...

and banning third party dice are weird when yours are not even that good in the first place...

They're as good as anything else out there, short of precision made casino dice. But they also sell the dice so it makes perfect sense for them to ban 3rd party dice.

I like my dice like my beer - bubbly.

I like my dice like my beer - bubbly.

I'd just like it if my dice floated some results to the top once in a while, instead of blanks.

... but I can garantee you that the FFG dice would not be legal for casino play. ...

It's a good thing we're pushing toy spaceships around a mat then, and not staking our kid's university tuition on the craps table.

I think people miss the point entirely on purpose... It is not because they are "acceptable" to push ship around that they are suddently flawless. They are not good or "normal" dice, they are cheap, really cheap even for gaming dice. I can easly get clear dice for 10$ that have no bubble and are in a better plastic quality. So removing my choice of using custom dice is "dicey" at best when you see the quality of their dice... If the money was an argument, they would also limit Template and force us to rebuy starting kit when they are broken­...

We are having a conversation about the legitimacy of banning custom made dice. And I find the argument that they control the "quality" of the dice or that you could cheat with custom dice bogus, when their dice are far from controlled balance, or that you could anyway load their dice without anyone noticing.

We are having a conversation about the legitimacy of banning custom made dice.

You have yet to prove that the FFG dice have caused any real harm in tournament games. Before FFG would consider changing the rule, there would have to be a solid case showing that people are at a disadvantage by using FFG dice compared other people. That the dice in question are having a controllable impact on the game.

FFG has a vested interest in seeing people use their dice, so you have to prove that allowing 3rd party dice would be a benefit to them by making the OP events better in some way.