I'm trying to get together a Palp aces list featuring Vessery and Inq, but I'm a bit stuck between 2 variants:

Variant A

OGP, Baffle, Palp

Inq, PtL, Autothrusters, Title

Vessery, VI,TIE/D, Tractor Beam, TIE Mk. II

Variant B

OGP, Baffle, Palp

Inq, PtL, Autothrusters, Title, Prockets

Vessery, VI,TIE/x7, TIE Mk. II

Variant A capitalizes a bit more on the Vessery/Inq synergy, but it makes Vessery a no-brainer target: easiest to kill and biggest threat.

Variant B makes the target priority a bit less clear (Vessery is harder to kill and a smaller threat without Tractor while Inq if left unchecked will deliver a nasty punch with Prockets), but has less offense overall.

Which one do you think would work better ?

I'd say B for the unclear target priority.

Though most reports I've heard for Tie/D's say they're monsters for damage out put, so if you have the time, test them both and see which better fits you.

I've tried both kinds of Defenders just a little bit so far, but I tend to prefer the TIE/x7s. The TIE/D with a turret makes them a very clear threat and they usually don't live a long life. I've had some success stories, like tractoring an ace onto an asteroid and then following up with shots at their lower defense to kill them in one go, but I've also had a number of games where they died much earlier than a TIE/x7 would have and it didn't feel like they did enough extra damage to be worth it.

Now, I haven't run it myself, but I've seen some interesting results from a TIE/D with Ruthlessness on it. Problem is, that would require you to find even more points and it puts a REALLY big target on their head.

I've ran variant A for a bit (4 games until now), and my results have been mixed. The disadvantages have always been there (for all my opponents it was immediately obvious they should gun for Vessery), while the Tractor Beam has been hit or miss (pun intended): some games it has been pure win (like tractoring a homing missile deadeye bomber that hadn't shot yet on an asteroid or tractoring a crack black out of arc for several turns in a row), others it hasn't added all that much (maybe a couple of extra damage from -1 agility and/or tractoring them one range band closer; the problem with tractoring people closer however is that at PS8 it usually benefits their return shot too)

Eventually, TB Defenders will have been seen enough for even the most inexperienced players to know that being near obstacles is extremely dangerous, and fly different to adjust. Also, as has been pointed out, there's a big target on Vess w/ the /D title, AND he doesn't have any added defense to show for it.

IMO, I'd run list B, but I'd remove VI on Vess (I've never found it THAT useful on x7, while it can be vital on /D) and give him Juke. You can thank me later!

IMO, I'd run list B, but I'd remove VI on Vess (I've never found it THAT useful on x7, while it can be vital on /D) and give him Juke. You can thank me later!

Why I went for VI: Inq wants to Target Lock as much as possible. At PS8 Vessery can shoot first, benefit from Inq's Target Lock, then Inq shoots and can spend it as needed. At PS6 with Juke either Inq can't spend the Target Lock or the OGP needs to be in range to TL Vessery's target.

EDIT: At PS6 Vessery's ability in this list becomes pretty situational. In that case wouldn't it be better to just run another Defender, like Maarek (same price +1 PS) or Ryad (-1 PS, -1 point, less situational ability) in his place ?

Stick with list B, but drop the mk2 engines.

If you're spamming 3+ speed maneuvers, you'll rarely be stressed anyway. The 98 init bid is far more important when you match up against other Inquisitors, Omegas, etc. - especially since you're running PRockets.

edit: or if you really don't care about the init bid, then just throw Ion Projector on the shuttle to deal with enemy aces. No point staying at 99 though I think.

Stick with list B, but drop the mk2 engines.

If you're spamming 3+ speed maneuvers, you'll rarely be stressed anyway. The 98 init bid is far more important when you match up against other Inquisitors, Omegas, etc. - especially since you're running PRockets.

edit: or if you really don't care about the init bid, then just throw Ion Projector on the shuttle to deal with enemy aces. No point staying at 99 though I think.

That's a very good point, thanks I'm not good enough with the Lambda to make Ion Projector really work I think, so I'll give it a try at 98 first.

Stick with list B, but drop the mk2 engines.

If you're spamming 3+ speed maneuvers, you'll rarely be stressed anyway. The 98 init bid is far more important when you match up against other Inquisitors, Omegas, etc. - especially since you're running PRockets.

edit: or if you really don't care about the init bid, then just throw Ion Projector on the shuttle to deal with enemy aces. No point staying at 99 though I think.

That's a very good point, thanks I'm not good enough with the Lambda to make Ion Projector really work I think, so I'll give it a try at 98 first.

Keep the Twin Ion Engine. It's still possible for you to become stressed, either via debris or enemy ability... Or a rare hard 2.

A point bid of 99 is likely enough, I don't think init bid is actually a major strategy for most lists atm.

EDIT: And, if you're still bringing this list when the Shadowcaster is out, you'll want some insurance from Ventress' ability, assuming she ISN'T using BMSTs from the get-go.

Stick with list B, but drop the mk2 engines.

If you're spamming 3+ speed maneuvers, you'll rarely be stressed anyway. The 98 init bid is far more important when you match up against other Inquisitors, Omegas, etc. - especially since you're running PRockets.

edit: or if you really don't care about the init bid, then just throw Ion Projector on the shuttle to deal with enemy aces. No point staying at 99 though I think.

That's a very good point, thanks I'm not good enough with the Lambda to make Ion Projector really work I think, so I'll give it a try at 98 first.

Keep the Twin Ion Engine. It's still possible for you to become stressed, either via debris or enemy ability... Or a rare hard 2.

A point bid of 99 is likely enough, I don't think init bid is actually a major strategy for most lists atm.

EDIT: And, if you're still bringing this list when the Shadowcaster is out, you'll want some insurance from Ventress' ability, assuming she ISN'T using BMSTs from the get-go.

While horrendous point bids are not something you commonly see nowadays, I still see (local meta and Vassal) plenty of 99 point lists. 98 would give me initiative pick 99% of the time, as opposed to 50-60% of the time (from my current experience). I'll experiment more, but so far stress hasn't been a problem (I usually become stressed doe to my own hard turns).

Also, before I worry about Shadowcaster I want to wait and see how popular it will be. I'm primary a Scum player newly branching into Empire I'm not world's greatest list builder but I've played around with Shadowcaster ideas and so far I have yet to see a list that a) is not worse against most stuff than Dengaroo and/or triple Scouts and b) cannot be made better by replacing the Shadowcaster with Dengar or an IG.

Shadowcaster is going to have a different playstyle -- it's a control ship, imo, something that has been out of the game since the Jumps made their debut.

Not sure it will actually push Jumps outside of the meta at all, but it is going to be something we see. Even if it's only because it's the new shiny.

And the point bid 100% makes sense, if your area sees a lot of point bids. I'm not seeing it in the games I've been playing, but I'm not a huge fan of Vassal and my experience doesn't give anywhere near a broad enough spectrum of examples, even within my current meta, honestly.

A point bid of 99 is likely enough, I don't think init bid is actually a major strategy for most lists atm.

I cannot overstate how incorrect this is.

Inquisitor is the most popular named ship right now. It's had 123 top cut appearances vs 53 Soontir appearances in this year's Regionals.

Any list with Inq will have at least a 99 init bid for the same reasons. The two I faced in my last Regionals ran at 98. I myself ran at 98.

Since this is similar to my lists, I'd like a suggestion too, please:

OGP

-Palpatine

Inquisitor

-Title

-Autothrusters

-PTL

Rexler Brath

-Juke

-Stealth Device

-X/7 Title

OR

OGP

-Palpatine

Inquisitor

-Title

-Autothrusters

-Prockets

-PTL

Vessery

-Veteran Instincts

-Stealth Device

-X/7 Title

Since this is similar to my lists, I'd like a suggestion too, please:

OGP

-Palpatine

Inquisitor

-Title

-Autothrusters

-PTL

Rexler Brath

-Juke

-Stealth Device

-X/7 Title

OR

OGP

-Palpatine

Inquisitor

-Title

-Autothrusters

-Prockets

-PTL

Vessery

-Veteran Instincts

-Stealth Device

-X/7 Title

Vessery is more efficient than Rexler, so I would opt for your 2nd list.

And I would offer you the same advice as I did to the OP:

Drop the Stealth Device for either an initiative bid or Ion Projector on the Shuttle.

Not sure what the fascination with Ion Projector on the shuttle is. There are plenty of matches you don't want your shuttle engaging in to begin with, so wasting points on an upgrade, just in case, seems ineffective. And, if the init bid is as important as you seem to think, it shouldn't wind up there.

'Course, I haven't seen the Inquisitor in my area since... Well, since a Vassal game I ran before Regionals, actually. So I guess I haven't seen him for a long time in my area.

Not saying he isn't around, obviously. And if you think your list is dependent on initiative, always plan for that.

Not sure what the fascination with Ion Projector on the shuttle is. There are plenty of matches you don't want your shuttle engaging in to begin with, so wasting points on an upgrade, just in case, seems ineffective. And, if the init bid is as important as you seem to think, it shouldn't wind up there.

The hardest match-up for that list happens to be the most common archetype - aces. And without overhauling LordBlades or Strider's list (we can assume they want to fly Palp, Inq, and a Defender), there aren't too many other anti-ace mechanisms we can recommend. Ion Projector (especially with Baffle) and Palp means that any ace that gets too close or fails to predict that sporadic 3-bank is going to be asleep for the rest of the match. Even if IP never gets to trigger, your opponent has to fly erratically. For 2 points, it carries a disproportionate amount of weight... I'm not implying IP is better than Stealth Device in a vacuum, but it does cover the lists primary weakness and Palp guarantees its reliability.

To give you a sense of its effectiveness, here are the 6 reported uses of Ion Projector in the Regionals results thread:

#1 rank after swiss, top 16

Top 4

Champion

Champion

Top 16

Top 4

All 6 had Palpatine, and 5 of them had Inquisitor.

Was there actual use of the IP during their matches? All about the EB and the constant concern of bumping being enough to cause opponents to fly erratically, but spending Palp to cause an enemy to stick to you seems like a gamble I'd personally struggle with, considering Palp's primary function is defense, for me.

Of course, I am NOT winning any Regional tournaments.

I've got a second League Night coming up on Thursday -- First night, I took second with a Jendon/OL/Vess list... Could always drop back down to Omicron and try out IP, though I did enjoy Jendon's setting up OL AND soft counter to Dengaroo's Countermeasures (... Of course, all my opponents were flying Imperial...).

Well obviously I can't prove IP was used during those matches, but it does show that some top-tier players are including it in their lists and winning with it.

It's 100% worth it to Palp and force Soontir/Inquisitor/Vader/Poe/Corran to be stuck in one spot for the rest of the game without any actions. Also, you'd only be spending Palp 50% of the time on Ion Projector, and ideally you would want to take quick advantage of your "trapped" prey. You won't need Palp as much for defense when a significant portion of your opponent's list is disabled.

I flew Palp Aces at Regionals this year and won despite facing 3 Dengaroos and 2 Palp Aces. I can tell you I would be equally terrified if I saw an IP Palp Shuttle across the board. All it takes is one bump, and the game could be over.

But ya, give it a shot and let us know what you think - maybe it'll work for you and maybe not.

Well, between the Stealth Device on Vessery, Autothrusters on the Inq, and Palpatine, I've had games where my opponent never landed a shot. But that's just me vs. the CPU on xws-bench and my local Montana tourneys.

Is Ion Projector really that good? The enemy is bumping you so he´s losing his actions anyway. If he´s shedding stress (because of PtL), he probably used a green move when bumping so he got rid of the stress anyway. Sure, next round he´s limited to a straight 1, but he can still use PtL to turtle or relocate if he wants to (assuming imp aces).

Is Ion Projector really that good? The enemy is bumping you so he´s losing his actions anyway. If he´s shedding stress (because of PtL), he probably used a green move when bumping so he got rid of the stress anyway. Sure, next round he´s limited to a straight 1, but he can still use PtL to turtle or relocate if he wants to (assuming imp aces).

The whole point is to force consecutive bumps and ions.

The shuttle can stall and baffle or just perform 1-straights if the enemy ship is in front.

Soontir isn't going to PTL or relocate because he's literally not moving or performing actions until the Shuttle dies.

Zerotc, I do want to point out that I wasn't demanding you prove their use, I was more intrigued and was wondering if there might be, say, video footage of a match using it.

My preferred strategy is to keep the shuttle on the outskirts of battle. Even when I've gone against other Palp Aces bent on jousting their entire list, I still let the shuttle run... And it's worked for me.

'Course, I used to love jousting the shuttle, when I ran with Vader and Soontir/OL...

Ya, I've seen both strategies work. Personally I like getting the Shuttle in the mix, but I run Baffle and like to keep lanes clogged.

The IP recommendation is more specific to these Inq/Vess lists because PS8 exposes them them to Soontir & Vader matchups.

Ya, I've seen both strategies work. Personally I like getting the Shuttle in the mix, but I run Baffle and like to keep lanes clogged.

I'm also more of an aggressive player, so getting those shots in fits my playstyle. There is definite value in preserving Palp in defensive, long-game strategies too though.

The IP recommendation is more specific to these Inq/Vess lists because PS8 exposes them them to Soontir & Vader matchups.

That makes sense, and would actually be brutal, used correctly, with Defenders. With OL, Vess, and a title on the shuttle, I was running PS 8/6/6 (and the shuttle only came into play as a flanker, which is funny to think about, brutal when it works). But my meta really isn't high-PS aces. The most I'm seeing are ineffectual Brath Defenders, which are super predictable when at a higher PS.

And Dengaroo, of which we have two-ish players (Major Juggler being one, during recent events), doesn't care about IP, so his PS is a non-issue, in that regard.

If you want to keep the shuttle away from the fight then baffle is largely useless IMO (all it gives you for running away are consecutive 3 banks). Baffle is a good upgrade if you want to take the shuttle into the fight.