Hiyas, after watching the demo game by Beast of War, I'm still excited for the game, but boy archery seems very good.

That small undead archer unit just cut swathes through human cavalry and spearmen, and it was only two trays wide! (I'll be going three wide for triple damage). Shooting into a combat did not seem to be such a bad thing to do, only giving one panic token to carrion worm.

I know its still early days and we have yet to see the full rules, but I hope there will be some kind of army list or restrictions, something like for Undead, for each Reanimate (melee) unit you must take a Reanimate archer unit , and vice versa, so one couldnt take a whole army of archers.

Agreed, I felt the same way watching the video. These games always struggle to find a balance for missile units. Kings of War found a decent middle ground, maybe going too far towards making sure they're not over powered.

At least I think they should make most missile fire a high initiative action, and make firing into an ongoing melee less desirable. That was the part that really seemed odd.

One thing to consider is that you're measuring how good archers WOULD BE if this was a game purely about killing each other. It isn't. There are objectives (like Armada) and fulfilling those objectives are where the lion's share of the victory points are. Sitting in the back and shooting may get you some kills but they're not likely to capture any flags back there before the turn limit runs out. The role of archers is probably going to be more like thinning out enemy melee units to assist your own melee units in getting objectives.

This may also be attributed to lacking game knowledge by the players (it's a demo after all).

From what I've seen, many units can reach the enemy DZ turn 2. Additonally, there seems to be no DZ to DZ shooting. Reanimate Archers have an initiative 5 ranged attack. If I had to play against them, I would use turn 1 for a big, more-than-initiative-5 movement (can't be shot this way) and follow up in turn 2 with a small, les-than-initiative-5 charge.

Table was also half of the size it's supposed to be. Real games will be on a 6x3 table.

That's why you just take 15 carrion worms instead

One thing to remember, in the demo games almost no one took the +1defense modifiers. That's important because of the way defense works. To start off, the archers throw a red and a blue die. The max pure damage they can do is two hits on the red and one on the blue. With three facings (which the archers may not even be able to have-I don't remember their cardback) that becomes 9 damage on a perfect Roll. Now usually the spearmen are 1 defense and 1 wound, meaning every damage is a wound and therefore a kill. That's 9 kills on a perfect shot. Now if the spearmen take the +1 defense modifier, it now takes 2 damage for 1 wound. Meaning that perfect Roll of 9 damage is only 4 kills. Still not bad... but not game shattering either.

I also was not making anyone use the line of sight rules. That makes it much harder to hit units past your own guys, which means the better your sight lines for ranged, the better lanes fast charging units have to get to your archers to lock them down.

Fair points - I can definitely see how careful action and modifier use will mitigate missile fire. I didn't notice LoS really being used/explained during the demo, but it's good to know that it will have some effect on shooting into a melee or past another unit.

The part where the archers shot into the melee and essentially just wiped out the spearmen was the only point in the game where I thought "huh, that seems kind of dumb, I don't like that at all". I think it stuck out to me in part because a) I have bad memories of gunline armies in other games, particularly 40K and the way units shoot into and out of melee in AoS and b) it was the only real negative impression I had.

It's just not fun to put the effort into painting an army for a tabletop game, going to play at the club, etc... and just start removing units in turn 1/2 before you even had a chance to use them in the game. Regardless, despite my misgivings about it, I fully realize I am going on partial information and no actual experience playing the game. I see cavalry have the tools to take a really long, very high initiative move, a fast melee option and the ability to dial in a defense modifier on any action. I forsee taking two or so small units of them for some archer hunting as a rule.

This may also be attributed to lacking game knowledge by the players (it's a demo after all).

From what I've seen, many units can reach the enemy DZ turn 2. Additonally, there seems to be no DZ to DZ shooting. Reanimate Archers have an initiative 5 ranged attack. If I had to play against them, I would use turn 1 for a big, more-than-initiative-5 movement (can't be shot this way) and follow up in turn 2 with a small, les-than-initiative-5 charge.

This is the kind of thing that can and will make games very nice tactically... When I play X-Wing I always have a copy of the dials of every ship and their possible maneuvers influence a lot the decisions you take. I suppose you'll play similarly here and maneuvering well, guessing your opponent correctly and making feints will play a big role in the game.

Also, as someone else pointed out, the Human player never chose the Shield bonus for the Spearmen, and it seems it will be the default tactic until you get in melee... plus the Archers rolled maximum damage.

One thing to remember, in the demo games almost no one took the +1defense modifiers. That's important because of the way defense works. To start off, the archers throw a red and a blue die. The max pure damage they can do is two hits on the red and one on the blue. With three facings (which the archers may not even be able to have-I don't remember their cardback) that becomes 9 damage on a perfect Roll. Now usually the spearmen are 1 defense and 1 wound, meaning every damage is a wound and therefore a kill. That's 9 kills on a perfect shot. Now if the spearmen take the +1 defense modifier, it now takes 2 damage for 1 wound. Meaning that perfect Roll of 9 damage is only 4 kills. Still not bad... but not game shattering either.

I believe I demo'd with on Sunday (you took the scale pictures during my demo for reference).

I made it a point to take the defense modifier on my Spearman as I advanced, and as you say it did really curtail my opponents archers and their ability to dish out tons of kills.

I can see how not doing so could result in archers laying waste to things.

I made it a point to take the defense modifier on my Spearman as I advanced, and as you say it did really curtail my opponents archers and their ability to dish out tons of kills.

I can see how not doing so could result in archers laying waste to things.

Uh ... ranged units really are strong. Mowing a unit of knight in a single volley ... makes me think if the 'Extra Damage' order is a bit over the top for archers.

On the other hand, this makes them not only 'a few damage on the top' but more a strategic weapon, which you need to outflank with your knights.

We'll see how all parts work together in a complete game. I have faith that this will be a good one.

Not worried about the archery at all now. The Reanimate archers have had their dial changed, no bonus hit. And rewatching the video, the Daqan player never took the extra defence modifier.

The initiative on the archers is quite poor compared to Daqan knights, I think at best they'll only get one shot off at two defense plus one, before the knights run them down.

Did you notice a Cav unit can Move 6 base lengths in one turn and archers max range is 5? If the cav dials in a 4 move and then a 2 boost move as their action.

2 hours ago, Drakoniss said:

Did you notice a Cav unit can Move 6 base lengths in one turn and archers max range is 5? If the cav dials in a 4 move and then a 2 boost move as their action.

true but they wouldnt get a charge then. it might be worth it to run them into contact with the archers without a charge, but i think in most cases i would move up with the + defense (and maybe shield wall) then charge next turn. with shield wall and +D thats 4 Defense per model.

2 minutes ago, Klaxas said:

true but they wouldnt get a charge then. it might be worth it to run them into contact with the archers without a charge, but i think in most cases i would move up with the + defense (and maybe shield wall) then charge next turn. with shield wall and +D thats 4 Defense per model.

This also makes the assumption that there will ba a lack of screening units.

I'll just say that it's just a demo game, so I can fully expect the players to use every advantage nor know all of the rules. The full game will most likely play out differently based on what upgrades players give to their units. I expect some archers to have the wind rune to scurry away but I can also see Knights, Carrion Lancers, or even Spearmen with a Wind Rune getting out of lanes of fire or getting closer to the archers before a charge on the next turn.

Sure, the Archers can do some damage at range. That's their job, right? I actually think it's quite thematic to have mook skellies tar pit the enemy while the archers shoot into the melee.

I haven't really seen anyone talk about Kari and her ranged attack. No, not the surge ability, but her native ranged attack.

2 minutes ago, Klaxas said:

true but they wouldnt get a charge then. it might be worth it to run them into contact with the archers without a charge, but i think in most cases i would move up with the + defense (and maybe shield wall) then charge next turn. with shield wall and +D thats 4 Defense per model.

You could still potentially move enough in a turn, maybe not the first, to engage the archers and prevent them from using ranged attacks if they don't have the upgrade. The Knights would get a Panic Token but you could set up an earlier turn with the Knights and a rally action for an Inspiration token. In the following turns, you could simply bash the archer's skulls in.

@Kubernes the thing with Kari is, she isn't dependant on her ranged attack as her melee is better with the modifiers and surge ability.

20 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

@Kubernes the thing with Kari is, she isn't dependant on her ranged attack as her melee is better with the modifiers and surge ability.

That dependent on a lot of surges and an enemy within range. She does have a very interesting option of ignoring los with an upgrade. Another upgrade lets her move after firing. I'm just saying that keeping that ranged attack an option isn't a bad idea.

Her best ranged option just might be that passive, that unit of elves.

4 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

That dependent on a lot of surges and an enemy within range. She does have a very interesting option of ignoring los with an upgrade. Another upgrade lets her move after firing. I'm just saying that keeping that ranged attack an option isn't a bad idea.

Her best ranged option just might be that passive, that unit of elves.

I understand but the reason the aechers get more talk is because they are so dependant on their ranged damage and ,in the core set, rather squishy in melee.